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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/India House/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:19, 25 July 2008 [1].

India House

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Nominator(s): rueben_lys (talk · contribs)

I'm nominating the India House for featured article. This article material has been mainly (almost entirely) my own contribution. I have tried to make sure the FA criteria have been met. I did not recieve any indications that the article was not NPOV, one editor who I asked for comments said it was well-structured and a copy editor said it was an excellent article. I have tried and addressed the issues raised in the Peerreview, and the comments that further reading was not available has been addressed. I have made use of all the sources I could find available, bot amongst journals and historical works, to try and make this comprehensive but focussed. Lastly, the article was copyedited a second time (by myself, today). I would like to nominate this article for FA now, not least because this will also help improve the Hindu-German Conspiracy to FA standards. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 17:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 23:56, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I might be a bit lost here. Could you tell me where the problem is, I thought I was using the standard cite template rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
there are two "families" of cite templates. {{citation}} is one and {{cite book}} and its relatives is the other. You shouldn't mix the two families, so you'll need to reformat the {{cite web}} refs with {{citation}}. Sorry if it was confusing! Ealdgyth - Talk 18:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
DAWN references now substituted into {{citation}} template
rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 19:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bhavans info is published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. If this is not deemed reliable, I am sure I'll be able to find other sources. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, that looks reasonably reliable. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The JOglekar, Jaywant D. reference is published by lulu.com, which is a vanity press. What makes this a reliable source?
Give me half an hour, I'll replace this. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Joglekar references now substituted and text altered where appropriate. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 19:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise sources looked good, links checked out with the link checking tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

}}

  • Comment Why is the "see also" in "Nationalist movement" section at the bottom of the section? Why not put it at the top? I think that's where they typically go. Gary King (talk) 19:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The nationalist movement section already had it at the bottom, as were all the other see also templates, save one. I have (now) put the see also sections at the bottom of every section, which I think is consistent. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 19:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • Image:3411.jpg – do you know when this was published? Savarkar lived until 1966, so it's quite possible that the image doesn't fall under the public domain in India. Speaking of which, you might want to check the public domain status of all other Savarkar images. Some of these images don't include dates either. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Image:TIS.jpg – why is this applicable under the terms of fair use? It was published in 1909, hence public domain.
    • For journal publications, do not include the journal, issue number and page numbers in the "title" parameter. There are separate parameters for those items. Please see {{Harvard reference}} for more. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Give me half an hour, I'll sort this out. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 20:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Savarkar image has been removed, the TIS template changed to {{PD-US-1923-abroad}}, journal template sorted. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 21:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Few comments
  • [8][9][10][11][12] -- why do five references need to be used for such non-controversial and obvious information taught in class nine at schools? One or two would be more than enough.
  • Watch out for overlinking. Shyamji Krishna Varma and Hindu-German Conspiracy are linked twice in the lead alone. There's no need to link UK, US, Europe, India more than once in the entire article (even that isn't necessary, if you think about it).
  • Rationalise the use of "Main article" and "See also" as they affect the appearance of the article by creating white spaces. Often they are mostly unnecessary as the links could be incorporated in the prose itself. indopug (talk) 07:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 12:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Indopug.
You may find the statement non-controversial, but I know a number of people may take exception to the notion that political and social unification was a result of the company's or the Raj's work. Moreover, others will also suggest that India was already an entity under the various pre-company kingdoms without considering or giving due weight to the the changes in the 1800s. The referencs therefore help to focus the argument to the Raj period and cites references so that such arguments are not raised and any doubts are clarified. The reference literature should direct the reader's apetite for more info.
I'll sort out the overlinking as you suggest, give me a few hours, since I may also need to edit afew more lines as well.
Rationalisation of template: ditto. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 12:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Krishna Varma and HGC links now rationalised, and main article templates reduced to where only brief outlines are given and larger main articles exists. See also templates retained where topic is relevant but not discussed or mentioned. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Chatto01.jpg is of Virendranath Chattopadhyaya, who died in 1937. It is therefore definitely taken before that date. Moreover the photo is from a personal collection and the owner (who may be linked to User:BobClive) has not made any claims. If this is still a problem, I'll get in touch with the uploader to sort this out.
Image:Champakraman Pillai.jpg- Pillai also died in 1934. So I am certain it was before this time. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:16, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What matters is the date of publication, not the date taken. If it is unpublished, a different set of rules applies (year of death of the copyright holder plus some large number of years). --NE2 15:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I can get in touch with Pritwindranath Mukherjee or Dwaipayanc to see if the copyright can be copylefted. I can revomve the c.r. pILLAI img of needed. Give me some time to sort out this img issue. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Re
Images:

I have emailed afew people to look for free licensed images and for permission for the images already under use in the page. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 12:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe P Mukherjee granted permission to use the Chatto image. I am awaiting an email. But User:BobClive has communicated to me that this is fine. I am awaiting a reply for Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan on Champak and Krishna Varma image. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I now have permission to use Image:Chatto01.jpg. I am still awaiting response from Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Is it at all possible to use the two images under fair use? rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 10:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I now have permission from Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan to use the Champakaraman Pillai image. I will change the license in a short while. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 12:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image of Shyamji Krishna Varma replaced with a Historic image of Cama with flag in 1907. Fair use rationale. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose until the writing improves. This is an important article. It still needs work to meet the criteria.

  • Are you sure it's "The India House" and not just "India House"? In fact, now I see the second half-way down the lead.
  • I'm finding the clumps of multiple reference numbers very intrusive. For example, why three refs for a relatively uncontentious statement—and in the lead, too, where we want to capture readers' attention with minimal clutter: "India House rapidly developed into a centre for intellectual and political activism, a meeting place for radical Indian nationalists in Britain.[2][3][4]". And this porcupine: "Nationalism had been on the rise in India throughout the last decades of the 1800s as a result of the social, economic and political changes that were instituted in the country through the greater part the Century. The result was the realisation and refinement of the concept of Indian identity.[9][10][11][12][13]". No; ration them to the most important or turn into notes, or something. There are reference gurus around who might be able to help. And I see reference duplications in consecutive sentences; our readers will cope with a rationing in these cases.
  • Talking of clutter, there's a lot of unnecessary linking. MOSLINK and CONTEXT say drop the linking of well-known geographical names, such as India, the United States, and here, Europe. This will allow your high-value links to breathe. Why not remove the date autoformatting, which MOSNUM no longer encourages?
  • Can you pipe the links so the spacing of people's initials doesn't clash? "V.V.S." "M. P. T." etc. Me, I hat the spacing, but the guide says either is OK, unfortunately.
  • "through the greater part the Century"—No.
  • Start of section: "From very early on, the Congress also sought to inform"—get rid of "also", please, and it will be stronger. Can you audit the whole text for "also"? It's all over the place. Use only if absolutely necessary.
  • Whoever said to put "however" in the middle of clauses deserves to be shot. "In its aims, however, the committee was". Tell the readers the new angle at the start, please. Same for "Therefore" and other angle-words.
  • I'm planning to do a full copyedit of the article today or (probably) tomorrow. I just wanted to quibble, however, with this request. Strunk & White, indeed, insist that it is not to come first in the sentence or clause. In the case of this sentence, I prefer: "The British organisation, however, was largely unsuccessful in its aims, prompting socialists including Henry Hyndman to advocate the adoption of more radical approaches." This would also remove some of the commas which currently overburden the sentence. – Scartol • Tok 16:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And lots more. These are only random examples from the top. The whole text needs therapy. TONY (talk) 12:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments., and I am glad you point out this is a very important article. But on the points you raise-
    • The appears to me to be the correct usage since India House is also a specific noun.
    • The clumps of reference you mention, if I am correct, you're referring to multiple references. The lead section I had increased the number of references after comments during peer review. For the other parts, I have explained above why I have given multiple references in the sentence you highlight. What seems uncontentious to you may appear heiniously PoV to others, and I know plenty of people who will throw that sentence at your face as well as mine. I wanted to make sure that (and where other multiple references have been given) statements which may appear contentious are supported by strong references. Let me direct you to Talk:India archives from June-July 2007, Talk:British Raj arhives between February and May 2008 archives and Talk:Indian independence movement for example, where comments were made suggesting eg that revolutionary movement for Indian independence is played up these days and was infact non-existent("twiddling their thumbs" according to one editor), or that Hindu right wingers and Savarkar's supporters these days make hooha about the radical movement ("teeming with Hindu right"), or on the other extreme British rule in India and its directors in Britain were nothing but bloodthirsty wolves which did nothing but rape India (equated to "Nazi Germany") etc etc. And these comments are editors who participate in the WP:IND project quite avidly and do work very hard. So Tony, you think it's uncontentious, the next guy who comments might just slap PoV tag on the article.
    • Link etc will be sorted out by myself later today. Pipe link for names, allright, but this is getting irritatingly confsing, one man's MOS seems to be another's eyesore.
    • "Greater part of the century- No" Why???
    • I am glad you've suggested the recommendations. But just leaving it at lots more doesnot help since to me the text would appear perfect, and it has been copyedited by another copyeditor as well. It will really help if you point which bits you disagree with. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to address the specific points that you have raised. I could not find any "therefore"s, but I have trimmed the references, rationalised and alter text from "also", and trimmed the number of links. The shortened names have been piped without space. I will have a look through the text, but as I have explained before, specific examples would help a lot more than generalised comments. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 16:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have made requests to a number of editors in WP:PRV to have a look at the article especially with c/e and prose. Some have already started helping out, and also made suggestions. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I was asked to peer review this, but it was already at FAC, so now I will make comments here. I will not comment on the text for now as there is a LOCE edit in progress banner (and has been for well over a day). However the images do not meet MOS gudelines currently. Specifically, there is no image in the upper right corner. The images also have pixel widths set, but per WP:MOS#Images all widths should be set to thumb to allow reader preferen ces to take over. Portrait format images can use "vertical" to be narrower. More comments after the copyedit is done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what is the best picture that may be added, since the most appropriate would be one of Shyamji Krishna Varma or V.D. Savarkar, but a free or appropriately licensed one I have not found. The pixel issue escaped my mind completely, I will sort this in an hour. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added a collage to the top right hand corner, pixel specifications have now been undone

Reluctant oppose I struck my image concerns, thanks. While this is fairly well written and a fascinating topic, there are too many concerns, mostly with language and refs for it to earn my support at this time:

  • In the lead, a direct quote is uncited ...was a noted platform for anti-colonial writing and was banned in India during the Raj as "seditious literature".
  • There are several places in the article where articles seem to be missing or odd, some examples (not an exhaustive list) follow:
    • India House was both [the?] origin and [a?] "point of support" for a number of noted Indian revolutionaries and nationalists...
    • With the foundations of [the?] IHRS, Krishna Varma began a scheme for scholarships to Indian students...
    • Since the name is "The Indian Sociologist" (TIS), italics like "the Indian Sociologist" are wrong
  • Awkward and unclear India House became the focus of Scotland Yard and the nascent Indian Political Intelligence Office's work against Indian revolutionaries, but it ceased to be a potent organisation after its liquidation in the wake of the 1909 assassination ... It was the focus of all of Scotland Yard(??), or was it a focus, or was it the focus of a Scotland Yard investigation?
  • Another direct quote without a ref The "British committee of the Congress" published a periodical titled simply India, which provided a platform for moderate (or loyalist) opinion and demands, while keeping the British public informed about the Indian situation.
    • Now it is "The British committee of the Congress published a periodical titled India, which provided a platform for moderate (or loyalist) opinion and demands, while informing the British public about the Indian situation.[15]" but I think this does not follow Wikipedia:MOS#Italics Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Needs a ref It was at this time, during the political upheaval caused by the partition of Bengal, that the first foundations of India House were laid in London by a nationalist Indian lawyer, Shyamji Krishna Varma. Also it is unlcear to me if this means they literally built the physical house (laid the foundations) or if this is more of a metaphor - if the latter, perhaps a better word choice is called for ...that India House was founded in London by a nationalist Indian lawyer... perhaps?
  • Awkward However, differences with Crown authority and British resident to the states led to Krishna Varma's dismissal ... perhaps something like However, differences with Crown authority and British residents in these states led to Krishna Varma's dismissal ... is clearer?
  • Needs a ref He chose to return to England, where he found freedom of expression more favourable. His views were staunchly anti-colonial, even supporting the Boers during the Second Boer War in 1899.
  • Per Wikipedia:See_also#.22See_also.22_for_one_section, the See also in a section should "be placed immediately after the section heading for that section" and are "references to articles that are not wikilinked from the text". So in the "Indian Home Rule Society" section, the See also is at the end (wrong place) and three of the four links are also linked in that section (wrong). {{Main}} might be a better choice.
    • I meant to keep all four links in that example, {{main}} could be used - see Ernest Shackleton, specifically the Endurance Expedition (1914–16) section for an example of this for multiple articles. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Need to explain "ICS" in Nonetheless, the views expressed in TIS drew stinging criticisms from ex-ICS officials ...

Note - these are only problems as far as the "The Indian Sociologist" section. I stopped there for now - needs more copyediting, after which I will be glad to take another look. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this. I have gone through what you highlighted, gimme fifteen minutes for the {{see also}} since a cup of tea is crying for my attention. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 20:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have reread the part I commented on before and it is much improved, although I still have two concerns noted above. I will look at the rest of the article next. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More comments following up my reluctant oppose

  • I copyedited a few places that had minor errors, please revert if I made mistakes. I also looked at the Savarkar section. If Tilak in Savarkar was an admirer of Mazzini, a protégé of Tilak, and a law student is the same as Savarkar's work found its way in India to the extremist Congress leaders of the time, including Bal Gangadhar Tilak., then the link to Tilak should be in the first instance, not the second.
  • Assuming this is the same thing as the Abhinav Bharat Society, then this phrase is needlessly repetitive (we already were told he founded it) and uses a different name "initiating the secret society of Abhinav Bharat Mandal.[39]" and could probably be removed.
  • These sentences confused me - needs to be clearer in some if Paris or London is the city referred to Savarkar had lived in Paris for sometime, and visited the city often.[44] By 1908, he was able to bring to the folds of his organisation Indian businessmen then residing in the city. During one of his many visits, he was able to acquire a copy of a bomb manual given by the Russian revolutionary Nicholas Safranski to Hem Chandra Das, a Bengali revolutionary in Paris.[45] Savarkar is further known to have met Gandhi while in London, and his hardline views may have influenced Gandhi's opinion on nationalist violence.[46]

I really don't have time to read the rest of the article this closely and make comments - please get a good copyedit and let me know and I will take another look. Sorry, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This has now been replaced with {{citation}}, place of publications have now been included. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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