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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Giovanni Antonio Grassi/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 10 July 2021 [1].

Giovanni Antonio Grassi edit

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 03:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike many of the other articles about Jesuits I've nominated here, this Jesuit had a very active life in Europe, not just in the United States. He was an astronomer turned missionary turned educator turned royal advisor. I've developed this article substantially and think that it is up to FA standards. Ergo Sum 03:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from SportsLover 31 edit

I like this article a lot.Has a lot of references ,good text ,sources written clearly,reasons explained well. These are the reasons why I like the article for a Featured Article.

Explanation

  • Quality

The Quality of this works is very good .The images line with the text given,the text relates to the sources given and the sources are also a good informative reference for information.

  • Sources

The sources are well mentioned and have the pg.no ,author and the publisher listed properly are correct in the sense of a reader.The sources have also been read .These a re a reliable source for an FAR.

Thank You SportsLover31 10:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, SportsLover31. Ergo Sum 14:18, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Johannes Schade edit

My opinions given here should not be overrated as I lack many of the qualifications usually expected from wikipedians engaged in FAC discussions. :-)

I feel the article tends towards overlinking (MOS:OL). Some of the writing is not Plain English. Sometimes, linked names are dropped without introduction and with insufficient context.

Removed some of the clustered blue links and added explanatory tidbits here and there. Ergo Sum 04:27, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is a bit long. MOS:LEADLENGTH recommends 2 to 3 paragraphs for the article's text length (15 kB), not 4. On the other hand, the body could perhaps be extended to cover the subject better.

I've trimmed the lede. Ergo Sum 20:10, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1st paragraph. If a mentioned place is immediately followed by a wider localisation, then IMHO the wider localisation should not be linked as this comes near MOS:SEAOFBLUE. It is therefore proposed to unlink Washington D.C. and Rome. —The short Propaganda Fide is easier for the reader than the full Latin name, which I believe to be too cumbersome to use in the article. However, if deemed necessary, it should be given at the first occurrence in the text (or possibly the lead) with the short name between parentheses behind it.
  • 2nd paragraph. The mention of Połock after two northern-Italian towns surprises. Perhaps add some brief explanation ("now in Belarus"?). One might also wonder whether Polotsk would not be more appropriate (or give both?). If I understand it right, Połock is the name in Polish, whereas Polotsk is the transliteration of the Russian and Belarusian name. Polotsk has the advantage of ensuring the right pronunciation of the second syllable. At the time Polotsk had just been acquired by the Russian Empire, but the school might have been teaching in Polish by tradition. —I think that "natural sciences", "mathematics", "astronomy", "rector", "Peking", "London", and "Lisbon" should not be linked in this context. —The geography in the last two sentences is confusing as Lisbon and London are mentioned, but then Coimbra, which is not in Lisbon, and Stonyhurst, which is not in London. Perhaps there is an occasion here to shorten the lead a bit.
    • I've significantly reworked this part of the lede so that many of the more minor details are not mentioned. I've also added that the Polotsk college was in the Russian Empire, since that is not something that is common knowledge. While many European readers have no use of linking European cities, I think it's generally useful to link them for a global readership. I've removed some of the other links. I've also changed the spelling of Polotsk. Ergo Sum 20:18, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 4rd paragraph. Propaganda Fide as already been linked. The last sentence again gives the full Latin name. It might not be clear to all readers that these two are forms of the same name. (more to come) Johannes Schade (talk) 11:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not really sure how to make that clearer to readers since it just repeats the name. Ergo Sum 20:20, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The section Early life and education should perhaps be extended and clarified by additions.

  • 1st paragraph. The first sentence is too short to describe the region of his origins. Schilpario is a village in the Alps of north-eastern Lombardy that in Grassi's time was part of the Venetian Republic. The Italian version of the article does this quite well: "Schilpario in provincia di Bergamo (allora parte della Repubblica di Venezia)". The reader might find that "Lombardy" and "Venetian" contradict each other as Schilpario in not in the modern Veneto. —Somaschi and seminary in Bergamo. As you give a location for the seminary the reader might wonder where the Somaschi school he attended was. I would think also in Bergamo. But your use of "going to" might be understood to mean that it was elsewhere. Perhaps: going to -> entering? or attending? —It would be helpful to indicate the year when the pope suppressed the Jesuit order.
    • The source is not clear that it was actually a proper school, but rather that he studied under the Somaschi Fathers, so I can't give a location of where exactly it was. I'm a bit hesitant to go beyond simply the Venetian Republic because there's a whole article that explains it. Added the year of suppression. Ergo Sum 20:51, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2nd paragraph. "Therefore" is difficult to understand. The reader might first need some background about the suppression of the order that allowed the exception of Russia. You give this later. Perhaps you could move it forward? —Simple vow. Is it really necessary to introduce here the distinction between the simple and the solemn vow? Most readers will never have heard of it. I feel it should be sufficient to say that he had to go to Polotsk for his further training. —Replace "With Polock becoming" -> "where Polotsk became". Besides, the article about Gabriel Gruber uses Polotsk (Russian) rather than Połock (Polish). —Unlink "natural sciences" and "rector".
    • Moved up the explanation of Catherine the Great. While the distinction between simple and solemn vows is not huge in modern Catholic canon law, at this time, there was a big difference, so I think it's worth noting. Ergo Sum 20:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The section European voyage abounds in needless detail.

  • 1st paragraph. Beak up the sea of blue (MOS:SEAOFBLUE): Jesuit Superior General, Gabriel Gruber, to St. Petersburg -> summoned to Saint Petersburg to see Gabriel Gruber, the Superior General. —Last sentence Peking by sea? Confusing as Peking is not a seaport. What is this "departing Russian delegation" Which are "those cities? I think we do not need to know about them. Hence: Gruber wanted Grassi and his two colleagues to sail to China rather than to travel overland (or something similar).
  • 2nd paragraph. 1st sentence: "General" -> "Superior General" or "Jesuit General". General alone might be misleading. —"gifts to give to the people" -> "gifts for the people". —2nd sentence: unlink sled. Is it useful to mention the Swedish interpreter? —3rd sentence "They set out for London, where the Superior General arranged" -> "They planned to go to London where Gruber had arranged" —The sentence "Shortly after departing, three of the party fell ill, including Grassi, and they stopped for ten days at a small town on the Russian–Swedish border, where they were attended by a doctor." seems needless to me or could be shortened to "They were delayed by sickness". —"22 March" -> "22 March 1805". Dropping the year from dates looks sometimes elegant, but IMHO it should not be extended across paragraph boundaries as it becomes too difficult for the reader to establish which year it was when reading the paragraph on its own.
    • Fixed date continuity. Trimmed.
  • 3rd paragraph. The 1st sentence can be shortened to: "They eventually reached London on 25 May 1805." —2nd sentence Peking -> China. —3rd sentence "who unsuccessfully attempted to convince" -> "who however failed to convince".
  • 4th paragraph. The sentence "Their journey was delayed when the captain stopped in Cork, Ireland;" can be omitted. —Unlink "astronomy". —They seem to have met Damoiseau in Lisbon where he taught them some astronomic calculations that they thought would be useful when in China to correct the Chinese calendar. Give more detail to make this understandable.
    • I don't see this in the source. Can you point me to a page number that mentions this? Unlinked astronomy. Ergo Sum 21:01, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 5th paragraph. Nothing to report.

The heading of the section American missionary is perhaps misleading. Grassi did not go West to christen the Indians. He mostly was a teacher at an established school and a priest serving established Catholic parishes. The word "missionary" probably refers to the Maryland Mission, a Jesuit administrative subdivision, which became the Maryland province in 1833. The heading should be shortened to "American mission", or even to just "America".

You may underestimate just how "missionary" Maryland was at the time in the eyes of the church, especially rural Maryland, which is where most of the Maryland mission's institutions were located. The Maryland Mission was classified as such (rather than as a province) by the Jesuit order because it was located in a place where church was not yet very established. The Jesuits sent missionaries all over: China, Siberia, South America. There's nothing unique to the Indian missions that makes them missions. Ergo Sum 21:05, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1st paragraph. 1st sentence. The reader might be surprised by the change in name from Gruber to Brzozowski. I propose "In 1810, Tadeusz Brzozowski, who had succeeded Gruber in 1805 as Superior General, ..."
    • Good catch. I've clarified the succession. Ergo Sum 21:06, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2nd paragraph. 1st Sentence: "became naturalized" -> "would become naturalized" using future-in-the-past tense to stress that it would happen much later than where the main flow of the narration is now. —2nd sentence: introduce Francis Neale already here as the rector of the school. —Spanish: unlink. How could he teach Spanish? At that stage he probably could speak Italian, Latin, Polish or Russian (or both?), Portuguese and English but not Spanish.
    • Done (rephrasing). I'm not sure when he learned Spanish, but the source says he was able to teach it by that point. Ergo Sum 21:10, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The section Presidency of Georgetown College

  • 1st paragraph. 1st sentence. Mention that Charles Neale was brother of Frances Neale. Helps the reader not to confuse them. —Final vows. The link refers to the article Religious vows, which says, under Catholic, that Jesuits' first vows are perpetual. I am confused. Perhaps some additional explanation is needed. —Correct typo: Caroll -> Carroll.
    • Fixed typo. Clarified relationship. I'm not an expert on the minutiae of vows under canon law; the get very complicated very quickly. I know there is a difference between first and final vows in the Jesuit order (see here), but I will leave it to an inquisitive reader to research that outside the corners of this article. Ergo Sum 21:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2nd paragraph. Faculty: perhaps link to Wiktionary: this American English sense was unknown to me. Unlink "algebra", "mensuration", and "arithmetic".
    • Unlinked all except mensuration, because I've never heard that word and would be surprised if its meaning is common knowledge today. Ergo Sum 21:17, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3rd paragraph. Nothing to report.
  • 4rd paragraph. Replace: Leonard Neale -> Archbishop Leonard Neale, another of the Neale brothers. —Proposed: "Following the papal restoration of the Society of Jesus in 1814," -> "After the pope had restored the Society of Jesus in 1814," (less static)
  • 5th paragraph. 1st sentence: we seem here to jump backward to the time when Carrol was archbishop. We just learned Leonard Neale had succeeded him in the role. Probably move that sentence up. —"an increase in both the religious and ethnic the diversity of students" -> "an increase in the religious and ethnic diversity of students" —Proposed: "and he was succeeded" -> "when he was succeeded".
    • The fifth paragraph is not part of the temporal sequence but is instead a conclusion of the section, giving an overview of his presidency. I think to break it up and intersperse throughout the section would be more confusing to the reader. Rephrased per suggestions. Ergo Sum 21:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The heading of the section Representative to the Propaganda Fide should perhaps better read "Mission to Propaganda Fide in Rome" (or similar). The section is supposed to explain Grassi's mission to Propaganda Fide, but is difficult to understand and involves Charleston, South Carolina, and White Marsh, Maryland and some punished priests, in mysterious ways.

My concern with "mission" is that in the technical canonical sense, it wasa not a mission. I've trimmed some of the extraneous detail about White Marsh so that it keeps to the point of the section better. Ergo Sum 04:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1st paragraph. 1st sentence: replace "tasked Grassi with going to" -> "sent Grassi to" (be concise). —The reference to "White Marsh" is not understandable at all. What happened there? The linked to article White Marsh, Maryland describes a place in Baltimore County, Maryland and says nothing about Catholics and Jesuits there. I hope that is at least the right place. —The entry in the "Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani" talks about the "scisma di Charleston". This schism is also mentioned in the article on Leonard Neale. Should be extended and reformulated to makes his mission understandable to the ordinary reader without going into undue detail.
    • As the Leonard Neale article explains, it was a rather complicated and tedious affair. I've removed mention of it altogether because it's not terribly relevant to Grassi except to say that Neale had removed the priests. I also caught a silly typo. The controversy was in Charleston, South Carolina, not Charlestown, Maryland. I might look into writing an article about the schism to have a place that both articles can link to. Ergo Sum 21:30, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2nd paragraph. "ecclesiastical superiors" -> "church leaders" in the interest of plain English. —"While in Rome, he also successfully argued before the Propaganda Fide for the full canonical restoration of the Jesuit order in England." -> "While in Rome, he skilfully pleaded for the full canonical restoration of the Jesuit order in England at the Propaganda Fide and appeared to have obtained it for a moment but new obstacles were later raised by the English Vicars Apostolic." (or something similar).

The section Confessor and provincial superior mentions a profusion of offices and responsibilities given to him. He probably quit some of them before taking up the next duty which sometimes seems not to have been mentioned. The timeline is sometimes difficult to follow. Perhaps not all these offices were essential. Perhaps some were honorific only?

Yes, the timeline is a bit tricky. The sources are not great about supplying dates for the offices he held in Italy, and they rarely mention when he left an office. I've tried to organize them as clearly as I can, such as indicating when he left a certain city (and hence relinquishing an office he held there). None were honorific, as far as I can tell. Ergo Sum 21:39, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1st paragraph. The first sentence is long and difficult to understand and does not work well as an introduction to the subject of "Confessor and provincial superior" indicated by the heading. It might be better to split it. The 1st part might be: "Grassi became the procurator of the Jesuit province of Italy." However, it still would need to be explained what his responsibilities were. The link to the article for Procurator does not seem to be very helpful in the given context. The second sentence might be "He also was appointed 'socius' (assistant) to the Provincial Superior of Italy." —"who Grassi had assisted" -> "whom Grassi had assisted", besides, what does this mean? What influence had Grassi on the succession to the throne? Seems to need some explanation.
    • I've added an explanation of what a procurator is and rephrase the sentence so that the punctuation breaks it up a bit. Ergo Sum 03:00, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2nd paragraph. The first sentence is overloaded and should be split. Clarify that the "College of the Holy Martyrs" was a school. He seems to have been transferred from being rector of the "College of Nobles" (mentioned in the section's 1st paragraph) to being rector of the "College of the Holy Martyrs".
    • It only expresses two ideas, so I've reworded slightly and added some punctuation. Ergo Sum 04:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3rd paragraph. "Recalled Grassi to Italy in 1835". He had not crossed any frontier by going from Turin to Chambéry. At the time Chambéry was part of the Kingdom of Sardinia just like Turin. Sardinia would cede its parts west of the Alps to France in 1858. —Again, full name of Propaganda Fide: not a good place for it. Keep with the short one. —Filiberto Avogadro di Collobiano, explain: "an Italian politician". —Pignatelli, the reader might have forgotten; remind the reader briefly: "his teacher at Colorno".
    • Good catch. I've left it simply as " recalled Grassi." This is the first mention of the Propaganda Fide College (not to be confused with the congregation) in the body, so it only makes sense to use the full name. Added those brief explanatory details. Ergo Sum 04:24, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Johannes Schade (talk) 20:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the delay. I am on vacation and will get to this as soon as possible. Ergo Sum 01:32, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Johannes Schade, for your very thorough comments. I've tried to address them all. There are a few instances in which I haven't adopted your suggestions and have provided some explanation. Ergo Sum 04:26, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Ergo sum. Thanks for pinging me. Not being a subject-matter expert, I had indeed confused the College (school, Pontificio Collegio Urbano de Propaganda Fide) with the Congregation (organization, Sacra Congregatio de Propaganda Fide,Congregatio pro Gentium Evangelizatione). Thanks for taking my criticisms so graciously, for sifting the wheat from the chaff among them, and for sometimes going even beyond my suggestions in adding needed detail. I have reread the article and will soon start another traverse of comments below. Best regards Johannes Schade (talk) 08:02, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Second traversal of the lead.

  • 2nd Paragraph. —1st Sentence; proposed "appointed the rector" -> "appointed rector"; "Polotsk, located in the Russian" -> "Polotsk in the Russian". —2nd Sentence. I propose to reformulate entirely: "In 1805 he was selected to go to China as a missionary, but spent five years travelling through Europe without being able to secure a passage to the far-away country." (or similar). —3rd Sentence. The problem here is that he only studied at Coimbra, but studied and taught at Stonyhurst.
  • 3rd Paragraph. Last sentence; add "(a school for missionaries)" after the "Fide", so that readers can avoid the mistake I made.

Second traversal of the the section Early life and education

  • 1st Paragraph. —1st sentence. I would add "near Bergamo" after "Lombardy". I would also add "then" before "in the Republic of Venice". —2nd Sentence "going to" -> "entering". —Last sentence: add "near Parma" after Colorno. To Europeans Bergamo and Parma are known places but Schilpario and Colorno are not.
    • I generally try to keep like articles alike; in this case, the like articles would be the other Georgetown presidents articles. I think most towns most people have never heard of. If a reader is interested in its location, they can always follow the link. Ergo Sum 02:46, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2nd Paragraph. —Penultimate sentence: "there" -> "in Polotsk", needed as the last place named was Colorno, but you mean Polotsk.

Second traversal of the the section European voyage

  • 2nd Paragraph. —2nd Sentence "ultimately arrive in London" -> "go to London". —Last sentence "China, who failed" -> "China, failed" —Penultimate sentence: "ships that would take them to Peking" -> "ships that would take them to China" as Peking is not a port city.
  • Last Paragraph. —3rd Sentence: "causing the it" -> "causing it".

Second traversal of the the section American missionary

  • 1st paragraph. —Last sentence: "distrustful of the Jesuits" -> "wary of Jesuits".
  • 2nd Paragraph. The paragraph is too short to appropriately narrate his arrival at the college, introduce Francis Neale and describe the problems Grassi finds there. I think Francis Neale must be introduced here and not later. Something like "Arriving at the college he met its president Francis Neale and joined its staff as a teacher. He soon found that the school was struggling. Enrollment had dropped and the college was running at a deficit. etc." See the article about Francis Neale. At that stage Neale was approaching his seventies, was overloaded with other duties in addition to the presidency of the school, and was often in conflict with Carroll, the archbishop. It seems also that he was a heavy-handed disciplinarian and not liked by the pupils. —Last sentence (gradus). This sentence stays unclear despite the explanatory footnote. Perhaps omit it.
    • There's really no reason to bring up Neale here or go into detail about his presidency. I think that's suitably covered in the Neale and Carroll articles. Gradus is not terribly important today in the Jesuit order (as I understand it) but was important at this time, so I think it's worth mentioning. That's another example of one of those things I think an interested reader can research on their own since it is obscure enough to not be readily described here without going into too much detail. Ergo Sum 03:05, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Second traversal of the the section Presidency of Georgetown College

  • 1st Paragraph. —1st Sentence: "Grassi was appointed the president" -> "Grassi was appointed president" (without the article).

Second traversal of the the section Representative to the Propaganda Fide

  • 1st Paragraph. —1st Sentence. I would prefer to call him "Archbishop Neale" rather than "Leonard Neale".

Second traversal of the the section Provincial Superior and confessor

  • 1st Paragraph. —4th sentence: "appointed the confessor" -> "appointed confessor".
  • 2nd Paragraph. —1st Sentence: "which forced" -> "that had forced". —3rd Sentence: "the the" -> "the". —Last sentence. "eventually when" -> "eventually broken when".
    • Done. I don't see a repeat of "the" or use of "eventually." Ergo Sum 03:10, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3rd Paragraph. —1st sentence: clarify that the "College of the Holy Martyrs" was a school.
    • Is this not apparent from the name? My first thought when I hear "college" is school rather than collegial body like the College of Cardinals. Ergo Sum 03:10, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 4th Paragraph. —1st Sentence: "Wanting him to choose a permanent residence, the Superior General recalled Grassi in 1835" is not clear did he call him back to Turin? The Italian does not seem clearer. Is there another source?
    • I presume that the author uses the term "recall" in relation to the borders of modern-day Italy. Ergo Sum 03:10, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So far. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:08, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Johannes Schade: Thank you for the ongoing feedback. I hope there's not too much more or else I might start to doubt my writing abilities. Ergo Sum 03:12, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to see if you had anything else to add, Johannes Schade or if you were inclined to !vote on the nom. Ergo Sum 19:35, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Ergo Sum. I will read it another (hopefully last) time. Third traversal of the Lead

  • 2nd Paragraph, 1st sentence: this sentence agglomerates origin, studies and appointment as rector in one sentence, which sounds almost funny. I propose to leave out Venice (we are told above that he is Italian and that may be good enough for the lead) and start the paragraph with "He excelled in the natural sciences ...". —Last sentence: "began teaching at the University of Coimbra and studying at Stonyhurst" I do not think he taught at Coimbra.
    • You're right; that sentence did not read well. I've rephrased it and corrected the point about Coimbra. Ergo Sum 19:52, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3rd Paragraph: "Congregation de Propaganda" is half English and half Latin. Should it not be "Congregatio de Propaganda Fide" (without the 'n'); or otherwise "congregation of Propaganda Fide"?
    • I admit it sounds strange, but the phrase "de Propaganda Fide" is quite commonly used in English (or at least it was while the congregation was still officially named that). Many Vatican documents and scholarly articles adopt the construction "Congregation de Propaganda Fide," simply because the latter part appears to have become something of a term of art. Ergo Sum 19:52, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Third traversal of the section European voyage

  • 2nd Paragraph, last sentence: I agree with Z1720 that this sentence (starting with "Lord George") needs to be fixed.
    • I must have read that sentence too quickly. It's definitely not grammatically correct. I've fixed it. Ergo Sum 19:54, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3rd Paragraph, 1st sentence: "believed they could" -> "hoped to".

Third traversal of the section American missionary

  • Last Paragraph, last sentence: Gradus. You say that gradus was important and must not be left out, but then you provide an explanation in a footnote that reads "Gradus referred to two grades of membership in the Society of Jesus". This is not understandable and possibly even misleading as Gramatowski distinguishes gradus in societate from gradus in litteris, the one(s) given by the order the other(s) by a university. I wonder whether the Gradus tabled by Pulcinelli were not the fourth vow mentioned in Jesuit formation. Puccinelli just gives a date, we know nothing about the context, but it seems likely that it was a gradus in societate. Padberg talks about many "grades". If no new source about this can be discovered I would say delete or say something vague like "a high and rare honour. So far, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:57, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I slept over this and came to the conclusion that if you maintain that his gradus is important, then you must research it. That looks like something that is known. Puccinelli obviously expected people would understand. Best regards Johannes Schade (talk) 04:35, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that I don't think more research will yield any greater clarity. The source is not clear about which precise meaning of gradus it refers to, and since Grassi wasn't the Superior General or a bishop, there just do not exist the kind of highly detailed and comprehensive descriptions of his life that would discuss his attaining gradus. On quite a few other FAs and GAs of Jesuits that I've written, this Latin Jesuit publication is the only one that refers to the individual's rank of gradus, and my research indicates the same is true here. So it appears to me that the question is either include the sentence with the explanatory footnote (which is what I've done for the other FAs) and let an inquisitive and motivated reader attempt to discover any more detail that they might or remove it altogether. My inclination is to keep it since it does not really detract from the article. Ergo Sum 19:58, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Ergo Sum. I understand, but I wonder whether such knowledge would not be expected at FA level. —There is another issue that needs to be covered: Grassi's involvement in slavery. There are lots of recent publications on the Jesuits and slavery. The order has acknowledged the facts and apologised. Georgetown College was partially financed by income from plantations in Maryland that were worked by slaves during Grassis's presidency. With thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 08:01, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have been cognizant of the recent interest in the American Jesuits' activity in slavery. There is already a mention of Grassi's views on slavery. I have also added mention of his concrete interaction with the institution of slavery as superior. As for the gradus, I will attempt one more time to research it but if, as I suspect, nothing can be found about it, I will remove it altogether. Simply, it is not a so very important point; my opinion is that more information for the reader is better, but that is just my opinion. Ergo Sum 15:37, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Johannes Schade: I have looked through other Jesuit records from this time and have reread the Grammatowski explanatory document carefully. I have gathered that gradus here refers to the fact that he completed the examen ad gradum and thereafter professed his final/fourth vow. I have explained this in the article. Ergo Sum 19:22, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Ergo Sum. I found that the American Cyclopaedia has a long and thorough article about the jesuits that explains the examen ad gradum. https://archive.org/details/americancyclopd04danagoog/page/n626/ Best regards. Johannes Schade (talk) 19:16, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great, this is very helpful for future articles. That topic was always a bit murky for me. I don't find anything relevant in there for the Grassi article, but I will keep it at hand. Ergo Sum 20:04, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi @Johannes Schade:. While taking on board your comment at the head of your review, I was wondering if you felt able to either support or oppose this nomination? If you did it would be appreciated, but it is not (obviously) obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:28, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Z1720 edit

  • "Born in the Republic of Venice, Grassi proved to be a promising student" -> "Born in the Republic of Venice, Grassi was a promising student" Sounds more encyclopedic to me.
  • "in which was ultimately unable to secure passage to the distant country." -> "in which he was unable to secure passage to the distant country."
  • "where he eventually became the superior of the Jesuits' Maryland Mission" Delete eventually
  • "For significantly improving its curriculum and public reputation and obtaining its congressional charter," Too many ands. Maybe, "For significantly improving its curriculum, public reputation, and obtaining its congressional charter"
    • I'm not sure that would be grammatically correct. I've rephrased it to sound less repetitive. Ergo Sum 19:17, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which had been officially suppressed by the pope since 1773." why is this important to Grassi's biography?
    • It was pretty important becausee it ties together why he had to go to Russia to join the order, i.e. it was suppressed everywhere except Russia, where it continued semi-officially. Ergo Sum 19:17, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh, I did not connect that the Society of Jesus are the Jesuits. Maybe when it says "Society of Jesus" for the first time, the article can include "(colloquially known as the Jesuits)" or "(also known as the Jesuits)" just in case the reader doesn't click on the wikilink or know who they are. Z1720 (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " only to pronounce their simple vows." What does pronouncing mean in this context? Is there a wiki article for this?
    • Pronouncing is just the language that is typically used in the Catholic context. Sometimes one sees "taking" or "making" their vows, but pronouncing is usually the most common. Ergo Sum 19:21, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Because Empress Catherine the Great had declined to suppress the Jesuits,[a] the order fled Western Europe and survived in the Russian Empire," I don't think it's best practice to start a sentence with "Because". Perhaps, "Empress Catherine the Great declined to suppress the Jesuits,[a] and the order fled Western Europe and survived in the Russian Empire"
    • The perennial debate. I believe most modern linguists accept sentences starting with conjunctions such as "because" as long as it introduces a dependent clause at the start of the sentence (instead of starting a uni-claused sentence). I generally shy away from it, but here, I do think it's the most concise way of conveying the information. Ergo Sum 19:21, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is often recommended to refrain from starting a sentence with a coordinating conjunction (the "fanboys": for, and, nor, but etc.) but starting one with a subordinating conjunction (because, if, though, when, etc.) is perfectly fine. Don't you agree? Johannes Schade (talk) 13:29, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think that's right. (Although I'm pretty sure there's some except for certain instances of "for" but I can't quite recall the precise rule). Ergo Sum 13:38, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Therefore, Grassi went to the Jesuit College in Polotsk in 1801" Delete therefore.
  • " Grassi proved to be an excellent student " Again, "proved to be" might be an idiom. Why not, "Grassi was an excellent student"
  • "summoned to Saint Petersburg by, Gabriel Gruber," Delete the first comma
  • "Therefore, the trio departed by sled for Sweden," Delete therefore.
  • " Lord George Macartney, the former British ambassador to China, who failed to convince the directors" Delete who
    • The sentence would not be grammatically correct by deleting who. It would also probably change the meaning of the sentence. Ergo Sum 19:23, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Therefore, the party set sail for Lisbon, Portugal, where they believed they could secure passage to Macau." Again, delete therefore.
  • "the Superior General finally decided that he would no longer permit their mission." Delete finally
  • "He set sail from Liverpool on 27 August," -> Grassi set sail from Liverpool
  • "Washington was an even greater contrast to the cities of Europe he was used to," Delete even
    • The point of "even" is to contrast his impression of Baltimore with that of Washington, which he found even more dissimilar. I think it adds something thatt would bee lost without it. Ergo Sum 19:25, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also established a museum, that housed these devices among items, which drew members of the public, including senators and congressmen." Awkward phrasing. Perhaps, "He also established a museum that housed these devices, among other items, which drew members of the public, senators, and congressmen." I'm not thrilled with the amount of commas but I think it's necessary.
    • I've rephrased and separated part of the sentence with a semicolon. It reads more smoothly now. Ergo Sum 19:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He maintained good relations with the Russian ambassador to the United States, Andrey Yakovlevich Dashkov, who frequently visited the college, as well as with the American political leaders." Did Grassi maintain relations with other American political leaders, or Dashkov? Please clarify in the article.
    • With the other leaders. Clarified. Ergo Sum 19:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His presidency came to an end on 28 June 1817" -> "His presidency ended on"
  • "Despite the calls of Peter Kenney, the visitor to the United States on behalf of the Superior General, to return Grassi to Georgetown, he would remain in Europe for the rest of his life." -> "Grassi would remain in Europe for the rest of his life despite calls from Peter Kenney, the visitor to the United States on behalf of the Superior General, to return Grassi to Georgetown."
  • "While in Rome, he also successfully pleaded before the Propaganda Fide for the full canonical restoration of the Jesuit order in England." Delete also as redundant
  • "this promise would later be broken when Charles Albert expelled the order from the Kingdom of Sardinia." Delete later as redundant.
    • I don't have a date for when Charles Albert expelled the Jesuits. The source only indicates that it was at some later time. I think "later" is necessary to convey this. Ergo Sum 19:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""for a total of 25 years," -> "for 25 years"
    • I also think the phrasing adds something. By simply saying 25 years, it suggests that it was 25 more years, when those 25 include the ones he already spent. Ergo Sum 19:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "even though it required that he reduce his duties as provincial." what does "reducing his duties as provincial" mean? Please clarify in the article.
    • I'm not really sure of a great way to phrase this. The source says that he had to reduce his duties but doesn't explain how he did that or which ones he forewent. This seemed like the most generic but source-faithful way of putting it. Ergo Sum 19:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are the sources in "Further reading" not included as references in the article?
    • One is his writings on America, which would most likely constitute WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and also wouldn't really add anything to the article without going into excessive detail. There is already a brief summary of this writing in the article that relies on a secondary source's analysis. The second one is just an English translation of his writing. The third is just another academic analysis of his writing. None of them contain information that isn't already stated in the article or would just be much too detailed. Ergo Sum 19:34, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for my first readthrough! Z1720 (talk) 15:59, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Z1720. Ergo Sum 19:34, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns have been addressed. I added a note above about the Society of Jesus/Jesuits, but that won't cause me to withdraw my support. I also suggest that "Horgan 1964, p. 12" in ref 47 be a bullet point, too. Z1720 (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the wikitext actually allows me to make the first one a bullet. Ergo Sum 19:51, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I used a template to create a bulleted list in this edit. Feel free to revert if it is not helpful. I would suggest that either all the sources are bulleted, or just list them with a comma separating each reference. Z1720 (talk) 20:02, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass edit

  • Add alt text for the lead portrait and for the images of King Charles and Queen Maria.
    • All three already have alt text. Ergo Sum 19:31, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They do - apologies.
  • "File:Połacak, Jezuicki. Полацак, Езуіцкі (1800) (2).jpg"; "File:Ritratto di Carlo Felice - Google Art Project.jpg"; and "File:Berger - Maria Cristina of Naples and Sicily - Castle of Agliè.jpg" - add a US PD tags.
You missed King Charles, but I have added it. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:45, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • All images are appropriately licenced, positioned, captioned and alt texted. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Citations

  • #1: Should be "pp.", not "p."
  • #5: This is a pretty unwieldy short cite. For this and others to the same source, I'd come up with a shorter version (e.g., "Voyage of Fr. Grassi 1875").
    • I don't mind shortening it, but I'm hesitant to actually change it (i.e. excise words) because in the event someone is doing a Command-F search or just looking for that exact language, they won't find it. An alternative could be to shorten it to "Voyage of Very Rev. Fr. John Anthony Grassi". That's slightly shorter. What do you think? Ergo Sum 14:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • #49: Suggest using {{sfnm}} for this.
    • Much more concise. Done. Ergo Sum 14:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

  • Retrieval dates aren't needed for printed matter. But I think we've had this discussion before, so I won't push the point.
    • We have. I've been coming around to your point of view re access dates for Google Books links. Most refs in this article already had none for GB links and I've removed the rest to keep it consistent. Ergo Sum 14:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For works with multiple authors, I suggest using the "| name-list-style = amp" parameter. But up to you.
    • I only see a ref with 2 authors, in which case, my general preference is for minimalism. I think ampersands may be useful when it becomes hard to read the ref without additional punctuation. Ergo Sum 14:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Curran 2012: ISBN only partially hyphenated. I'd also take out the chapter title, since it doesn't seem to add much; incidentally, the page range given is for all of part 1, not merely chapter 1.
  • Garraghan 1937: The Catholic Historical Review can take a link.
    • The link would be to the article on JSTOR, which is provided. Ergo Sum 14:56, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just meant that the journal itself could be linked; see my edit to the article. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:20, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pizzorusso 2002: May as well translate the title, as you did for others.
    • The title is actually just his name. The Italian phrase I think you are referring to is the name of the encyclopedia it was published in. Ergo Sum 14:56, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I was thinking of the title of the encyclopedia, which could be rendered as "Italian Encyclopedia of Science, Letters, and Arts". But looking at the {{cite encyclopedia}} template, it doesn't look like there's a parameter for translating the title of the encyclopedia (as opposed to the title of an entry). So much for that great idea. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:25, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Russo 2017: Why the "Chapter 3" at the beginning? You seem to cite other chapters (e.g., Curran 2012) without the prefatory indication. Also, ISBN not hyphenated.
    • I generally add the chapter number at the beginning. The Curran one was an oversight, but is removed now anyway. Hyphenated the ISBN. Ergo Sum 15:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Schlafly 2015: Ditto re "Chapter 20".
  • Shea 1891: Ditto re "Chapter VIII". Chapter subtitle missing. Where does the book indicate that it is volume 3 of a larger work? OCLC not really needed; the point of the OCLC is to help locate a work in a library, and that's not needed given that the book is freely available online.
    • Added subtitle. The volume number was an error. Removed. Ergo Sum 15:11, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Further reading

  • Grassi 1823: Should take the "ref=none" parameter. OCLC not really needed.

This version looked at. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:53, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, as always, Usernameunique. Ergo Sum 15:12, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, Ergo Sum. Responses above (although looks like you've already seen them). The only one requiring action is the lingering retrieval date for Curran 2012. Also, I'm not sure if you overlooked my comments about the OCLCs, or saw them but just preferred to keep them. Fine if you prefer them, just making sure you saw the comments. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:31, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. I think having some identifier is helpful, so I've left the OCLC. Ergo Sum 16:47, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. I'm signed off. --Usernameunique (talk) 17:53, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note edit

Just going to take a look with a view to promotion if all well but first: not an expert but the fragment in the lead "a promising student of the natural sciences, especially mathematics and astronomy" struck me -- is mathematics a natural science? Would this be better expressed as "a promising student of the natural sciences, especially astronomy, and mathematics" or some such? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:11, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've always considered it so. There is definitely a hotly contested (albeit low stakes) debate in the philosophy of mathematics about how to categorize mathematics. By way of avoiding that entirely, I'll rephrase the sentence. Ergo Sum 02:51, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Tks for that, and your rephrasing is an improvement on mine... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:15, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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