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Ghost in the Machine (song)

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Ghost in the Machine (song) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 18 June 2024, 21:34 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): PSA 🏕️🪐 (please make some noise...), Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 14:42, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is primarily the work of PSA, who did a phenomenal job gathering information on this song. They approached me off-wiki last month asking to collaborate on helping to build the article, and we are both of the belief that it is ready for FAC. This song is from SZA's smash-hit album SOS, and while it was never released as a single, it still became the first-ever top 40 hit for its featured artist, the one and only Phoebe Bridgers. Cited by several critics and by SZA herself as an example of the album's experimentation with genres outside of R&B, the song revolves around themes of relationships faltering due to a lack of meaningful connection, with recurring themes surrounding artificial intelligence. I have greatly enjoyed collaborating with PSA on this one, and we both anticipate the community's feedback. (Disclosure: for my part, this is a WikiCup nomination.) Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 14:42, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

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Oppose on prose. I was the GA reviewer, and I said when I passed it that "the prose is a little awkward in places but I think this meets the GA standards". FA prose standards are higher. Here are a few examples of wording that I think needs to be improved.

  • "Elsewhere, it appeared on national charts in Australia, Canada, and Portugal." "Elsewhere" is redundant; the list of places tells the reader it's elsewhere.
  • "many praised the two performers as a fitting match despite their discographies' different sounds, whereas a few found Bridgers an unnecessary addition". "Fitting match" is redundant; "discographies' different sounds" is an odd figurative use of "discography" -- it's their music that has a characteristic sound, not the list of their music; "unnecessary addition" is a bit vague.
    • I've replaced "fitting match" with "good fit", "discographies' different sounds" with "the differences between their respective musical styles", and rephrased the "unnecessary addition" bit. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "From April to May 2022, SZA told media outlets that she had recently finished the album": strictly speaking this means she did nothing else but say this during that time, which is not what you want to say.
    • Lopped off May, as the source for this sentence is from April. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "SZA created a list of possible collaborators for the album. The roster included artists like": "roster" is not the ideal word; it means a list of people who have a given duty.
    • Revised to merge the two sentences and replace the "roster" clause with "including". Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Having been categorized as an R&B artist throughout her career, which she believed was because she was a Black woman,[12] SZA sought to prove her musical versatility and combine the R&B sound that had been a staple of her past works[13][14] with a diverse set of other genres and soundscapes." A bit wordy. And we start by saying she thought she was only categorized as an R&B artist because she was Black, and then say R&B was the main genre she had been working in. What does "soundscapes" add here that we don't get from "genre"?
    • I've removed "soundscapes" and had a go at tweaking the rest, though I may make further revisions. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The turnaround time for completing "Ghost in the Machine" was fast." A time is short or long, not fast (in some usages, such as athletic events, you can say "a fast time", but that's not this usage). I really should have caught this in the GA review.
    • Yeah that makes a lot more sense, I should've caught it sooner myself. Replaced with "short". Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Time's Andrew R. Chow wrote that she asks for help even if she feels drained from the romance, which he added was one of the album's recurring themes": a bit hard to parse. Does she feel drained from the romance or not? If she does, why "if"? I think you want "though". And what is the recurring theme? Feeling drained from romance? Or just romance?
    • I've replaced this part with "Time's Andrew R. Chow wrote that there are multiple instances on the album where SZA expresses desire to remain in a relationship despite feeling drained from it, and cited 'Ghost in the Machine' as an example". Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are just examples. I'll be glad to revisit if you can get a copyedit and one or two supports on the prose from other reviewers. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mike Christie, thank you for the constructive criticism. I believe that I have addressed the specific points you have mentioned (replies inline), and will be giving the article a few combs-through to identify other possible issues with the prose. Cheers, Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 17:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Heartfox

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  • "The lyrics are written" → try getting this out of passive voice, ie "Written in a conversational style, the lyrics express..."
  • I found it very odd that the songwriters and producers are not mentioned in the lead.
    • Good catch; added to the lede, and will incorporate into the body of the article ASAP. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 18:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Critics primarily focused on Bridgers's appearance on the song" → "In reviews, critics primarily..."
  • "for their synergy " → get out of wikivoice by converting to "as synergistic"
  • "she ultimately won more awards than any other artist that year" → questionable relevance for the lead given the main artist is SZA
  • "was a speedy feat", "had its live performance debut" → this doesn't feel professional
  • "appeared on the national charts in Canada, Australia, and Portugal" → can't rely on refs in other sections
    • I have to admit that footnote looked odd to me. I've replaced it with direct citations to the sources that were already present in §Charts. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 18:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • As a counterpoint - I have always believed that if a given information is cited somewhere in the article, there is no need to cite it again elsewhere in the same article, which is coincidentally the logic behind citations in lead sections. Plus, listing a bunch of peaks in quick succession in one paragraph disrupts the flow and makes the whole thing off to me. This feels like a matter of preference anyway, and I have reinstated the status quo. PSA 🏕️🪐 (please make some noise...) 05:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • I wasn't saying the article needs to provide the exact peaks, but I don't agree that a note from one section to a different section suffices as a citation. The guidance seems to be mostly about an opening sentence acting as a summary for a paragraph, or the lead acting as a summary for the paragraphs of the article. Heartfox (talk) 18:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • overall I think there are slightly too many references to the album. context is great but I think some sentences could be cut. Like "She posted the album's track list on Twitter on December 5, 2022." is really unnecessary I think.
    • I've tried to trim some of the references to other songs (thinking it over, I'm not sure if "Kill Bill" needed to be namedropped, let alone twice, though I believe at least one of those instances was my error) and extraneous references to the album itself. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 18:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As a member of Boygenius, she also won Best Rock Song and Best Rock Performance for "Not Strong Enough" and Best Alternative Music Album for The Record" → this level of detail is also unnecessary I think
    • Compacted to remove the names of the awards. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 18:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Best, Heartfox (talk) 02:29, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the feedback, Heartfox. I believe that I have addressed your comments. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 18:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "or 'a little bit of everything' in her words" → seems unnecessary when the paraphrase beforehand already says the same thing
  • "In a Billboard cover story published", "In an interview with Nessa of Hot 97", "In an interview for CBS News Los Angeles", "SZA told Alternative Press" → all this seems unnecessary. I don't care where stuff was said, I care about what was said.
  • "In the middle of the demo was an open instrumental section where Bisel thought Bridgers would fit" → Bisel thought Bridgers would fit in an open instrumental section during the middle of the demo
    • Replaced, with an additional small tweak at the end of that sentence. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 21:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was trying to make the feature happen" → informal
    • Replaced with "was trying to arrange the feature". Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 21:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for escapism, for gratification, to assuage" → for escapism and gratification to assuage
    • Kept the comma after gratification, but otherwise done. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 21:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ", being the most" → rephrasing with a semi-colon would work better
    • Rephrased, with some additional tweaks in the same paragraph. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 21:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments, Heartfox (talk) 20:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Heartfox: Replies inline. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 21:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Joeyquism

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I'll get to this sometime soon (likely within the next few days, I'm a bit burnt out right now). Thank you for the review(s) of Windswept Adan, by the way! Consider this my way of paying you back. :) joeyquism (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Joey, and you're welcome! It was a pleasure to review. Take as much time as you need :) Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 21:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dylan620: Hello again! I've noted some of my concerns below; feel free to refuse with justification:

  • ...with imminent release being considered a possibility as early as 2019... - Is this clause particularly relevant? I feel that the same information is conveyed or to some extent implied by the preceding clause (After numerous delays). I'd suggest removing it, or rephrasing it to where it does not sit awkwardly in the middle of more pertinent information.
    • Another user already rephrased this as "after three years of delays", which I think is an improvement. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • While some tracks had an "aggressive" sound, certain others were balladic, soft, or heartfelt. - Would it be worth it to note if "Ghost in the Machine" falls into any of these descriptions? I've noticed the gradual buildup to the mention of the subject, and while I do find it engaging, I feel as if this is sort of extraneous as it stands, as there have been no mentions of the track prior to this sentence. That being said, I recognize that it does provide more context as to how SOS sounds.
    • I've added another citation to support categorizing "Ghost in the Machine" as a ballad and removed "heartfelt" as not mentioned by the source (even though I'd personally describe the album that way). Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For A. D. Amorosi of Variety... - I feel like this is a different way of wording "In his opinion, [...]". I'd personally avoid this kind of phrasing by indicating that the following text is something that he wrote, and is not something that readers should take as fact, which is how it reads to me right now (I acknowledge that I cannot speak for others here). Something like "Writing for Variety, A. D. Amorosi wrote that the production..." would suffice.
    • and is not something the readers should take as fact – this is intentional, as I wanted to convey that it was Amorosi's opinion that the production sounded like those instruments (neither of which are mentioned in the credits). Nevertheless, I think your suggested phrasing works better, although I did replace Writing for... with In a review of SOS for... so as not to use "writing" and "wrote" only a few words apart in the same sentence (with respect to your mention of WP:ELEVAR below, which I found enlightening). Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bisel worked together with Carter Lang... - Remove "together"(?)
    • Yeah that's tighter and more flowy, removed. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The turnaround time for completing "Ghost in the Machine" was short. - This is sort of just my personal preference, but I'm not a fan of short sentences. If they're not at the beginning of a paragraph (in which case, I would encourage them, as they punch a lot harder), they disrupt the flow of the reading experience. I'd suggest conjoining this with the following sentence through a semicolon, or breaking the paragraph it belongs to in two with this sentence being the first.
  • The Alternative Press article states that "SZA wanted to weave in the voice of a 'highly conversational' person, or as she explains, someone with a conversational approach to their music like Mac DeMarco, Connan Mockasin or Kevin Parker of Tame Impala." Do you think this warrants inclusion in the article? This seems like valuable information for describing the conversational style of the lyrics. Let me know your thoughts on this. Do note that I did not do a spot or source check; I initially checked this link out to see if there was more to the quote "I feel like there's so much debate about what's good, what's bad, what's this, what's that?"
    • I think this could be worth including, though I'm not quite sure where. Maybe in §Music_and_production, where Bisel suggests to SZA that she invite Bridgers to feature? The Alternative Press article certainly implies this to be a reason that SZA felt like Bridgers would be a good fit. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think your instinct is correct here. I'm thinking perhaps some integration with the sentence In the middle of the demo was an open instrumental section where Bisel thought Bridgers would fit, so he suggested to SZA that she include Bridgers as a feature; SZA agreed.; perhaps before or after would be alright too.
        • Replaced the period with a comma and added having sought to include a "highly conversational" guest musician such as Bridgers. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 23:29, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • SZA, tired of online drama, sings about... - I think this reads strangely, but I'm not sure of how I would amend it. Leave it be for now, but I just wanted to note that I didn't think this phrase flowed very well.
    • I got rid of the online drama clause because it felt redundant to part of the paragraph directly above it, and replaced sings about wanting... with yearns for.... Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...the song arrived at its peak of number 17... - Can be conveyed more simply as "the song peaked at number 17"; I'm citing WP:ELEVAR here. Not trying to attack, but don't be afraid to use the same term twice within close proximity of each other at the expense of sounding a bit like you're droning; I struggle with this as well at times.
    • As I alluded above, I had not previously considered that "elegant variation" could be a problem, but I totally understand where you're coming from. I've edited the sentene to reuse the "debuted and peaked" wording. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • CJ Thorpe-Tracey for The Quietus... - "For" can be replaced with "of", or the clause can be phrased as something like "For The Quietus, CJ Thorpe-Tracey wrote that he felt..."

I have definitely not adhered to the "no style policing" expectation, but I do feel that some of the prose can be improved to further benefit the reading experience; additionally, most of the concerns that I had before were addressed by the other reviewers and corrected. Overall, I think it reads quite nicely; it just needs some touch-ups to really flow. I'll let you know if I have any further comments; as of now, I have no established position on where I stand for support or oppose. As always, feel free to let me know your thoughts with a reply. Hope you're having a great weekend, and I look forward to hearing back from you soon! joeyquism (talk) 21:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your feedback Joey :) I hope you had a great weekend too! I'll start working to address these comments after I get home later today. Dylan620 in public/on mobile (he/him • talk) 08:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi again Joey, I think I've addressed everything – replies inline! Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 22:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your edits, Dylan620! I have left one more comment above regarding the placement of the SZA quote from the Alternative Press article; once that is addressed, I'll read over the article a few more times and likely support. Thanks, and have a great rest of your day! joeyquism (talk) 23:02, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Joey, hope you have a great rest of your day as well! I've replied to your comment above. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 23:29, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks a lot better! Support on prose review. joeyquism (talk) 23:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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