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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Elderly Instruments

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 19:48, 21 March 2008.

Elderly Instruments edit

Self-nomination: After working on this article quite a bit (from scratch), I believe it meets the FA criteria. I researched the article extensively on the Web and at the library; I consider it the most comprehensive reference available about the subject, by far. It has had a peer review. I also got the owner to release several photos under Creative Commons for use in the article. Laser brain (talk) 05:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments web links all work (the little linky tool above says the NYTimes one has been moved, but no biggie), all sources look good to me. Ealdgyth | Talk 05:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Just some comments for now from my first read through.

"decided to utilize" wouldn't use be better?
It's a fine point, but the definition of utilize as "turn to practical use" I think suits this context better. Agree? --Laser brain (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"fixed them up" how about repaired?
Done. --Laser brain (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"due to the already larger number of musical instrument dealers in town" larger?
Fixed. --Laser brain (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"get-out-the-vote non-profit organization" I'm English, this is lost on me.
Clarified. --Laser brain (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"online auction sites such as eBay" is the mention of eBay really needed?
I feel it is, since the source mentions it. Many smaller musical instruments retailers now do the majority of their online business on eBay; it is notable that Elderly does not. --Laser brain (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Totaled" I know this is linked but it ruins the flow of the prose.
Reworded and de-linked. --Laser brain (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"hard-to-locate" does this mean rare? --GrahamColmTalk 16:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, reworded. --Laser brain (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support I have read this interesting article several times and I would be happy to see it on the Main Page.--GrahamColmTalk 17:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

<Moved off-topic commentary to talk page>. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Quick Comment Can you source the 85 employees figure in the infobox to somewhere? If the source is not necessarily up-to-date, it might be a good idea to add "as of _DATE_" in the footnote. BuddingJournalist 17:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cited. The Leebove article is from last month, so it is reasonably up to date. --Laser brain (talk) 18:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I think that there are significant prose problems with this article, some of which I'll list as examples.
  • "Guitarists routinely send invaluable instruments to Elderly for restoration and other important projects". What are these "other important projects? Wouldn't the instruments be better described as valuable?
  • "Around that same time, they began taking merchandise orders over their new Web site, the brainchild of an existing employee". As opposed to the brain child of a non-existent employee?
  • "Eventually, Werbin and college friend and business partner Sharon McInturff, who had $500 in capital to start with[5], leased retail space from local businessperson Ray Walsh in East Lansing, Michigan, who they met at a flea market, for $60 per month and started advertising locally." Muddled.
  • Moved clause about $500 capital to its own sentence. --Laser brain (talk) 20:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... Elderly operates in over 35,000 sq ft of space ..." Sometimes imperial -> metric conversions are given and sometimes they aren't.
  • Elderly is well-known for the quality and expertise of their repair technicians ..."
  • Elderly provides a well-known appraisal service for vintage instruments. They employ ..." Lots of places where there is a confusion as to whether Elderly is singular or plural.
  • Hm, these two are tricky. Will look over the article for violations; I believe what you've copied above is correct. You would say: "Burger King sells hamburgers. They pay everyone minimum wage." Right? I'll double-check with my editor at work. --Laser brain (talk) 20:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The thing is consistency. I really can't see any justification for mixing singular and plural as in "Elderly is well-known for the quality and expertise of their repair technicians ..." as opposed to "Elderly is well-known for the quality and expertise of its repair technicians."

--Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agreed. Will set to work on this and keep a sharp eye out for other issues. --Laser brain (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe I've caught all the prose issues you brought up and a couple more to boot. If you still think there are significant prose problems, I'll have to shop around for a copyedit because I've been staring at this thing so long I'm going cross-eyed. --Laser brain (talk) 00:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know the problem. :-) I do think that there are significant remaining prose problems though, and that maybe a fesh pair of eyes is needed. For instance: "New York City native Stan Werbin came to Ann Arbor, Michigan in 1969 to attend graduate school. He brought his banjo and guitar with him ...". Came to Ann Arbor? Was this article written in Ann Arbor? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback - I will correct remaining issues and go over the whole text again for stragglers. --Laser brain (talk) 20:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just gave it a look-through without looking at the above comments. In the second paragraph of the lede, it says how it underwent major expansion, and then it says into mail order. Was its major expansion through mail order? If so, the wording should be revised a bit. Is there an estimate on how much money it makes per year? If so, that'd be a good addition to the second lede paragraph. Is there any reason "folk music" in the first paragraph of history is in quotes? I removed some facts that were fairly unimportant to the article, such as who they leased their first store from. Also, the history doesn't really delve too much into how they become so popular. It says that they did mail order, but I'd imagine that several other companies did the same. Was there anything they did unique? I recommend merging the "business model" section with the history section, as they sort of go hand in hand. "...one of the larger vintage instruments dealers" - is there an actual number for that stat? That'd be good. Also, in the history section, is it needed to include the type of building that the company bought? It'd be nice to see what percentage of its sales were from a particular model, but I realize that info might not be available. Also, I notice that the company is merely called "Elderly" many, many times in the article. Is that another official name for the company, or is it more of a nickname, so you don't have to write out the title every time? "Many notable guitarists..." - such as? Is there anything on the Old Fogey Distributing between 1988 and 1997? All in all, it looks pretty good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurricanehink (talk • contribs)
    • Thanks for your excellent copyedit and your comments here. I have addressed most of your concerns, except as follows:
      • I'm not sure about moving the Business model section into History, since the History is a chronological account and the Business model is just general information I found.
      • The source does not specify where Elderly ranks in vintage instrument sales, just that it is one of the larger.
      • I included the Odd Fellows building information because it might be an interesting fact. You can see from the exterior picture that the building is somewhat eccentric (for an American retail shop) with the large "IOOF" intact. I thought readers might wonder where this came from.
      • No detailed sales information was available from my sources (or on Elderly's web site).
      • The company is called "Elderly" at times in most of my sources; do you think it's too informal? I guess I consider it the same as calling a restaurant "Wendy's" when its full name is "Wendy's Old Fashioned Hamburgers".
      • I struggled with the notable guitarists bit because the source supports it but gives no names. I think it's important though. I can find musicians who have seen famous people in Elderly but they are just anecdotes. No reliable sources.
      • I found almost nothing on Old Fogey - it was a last-minute addition and only one source mentioned it. --Laser brain (talk) 04:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. It's starting to look a lot better, but there are still a number of prose issues. For example:
  • "In 1986, Werbin bought out McInturff, who remains the sole owner." Who remains the sole owner? McInturff, even though he was bought out?
  • "Web" and "Internet" aren't capitalised consistently.

I'll have another look through the whole article later. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 14:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Werbin/McInturff thing was a recent edit; I reverted it back to the way it was. Fixed the Web/Internet issue. --Laser brain (talk) 14:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At these shows, Werbin or other staff members load vans with typical bluegrass instruments like banjos, guitars, mandolins, fiddles and resophonic guitars to showcase to musicians and businesspeople." So they load the vans at the shows?
  • "Although he initially tried operating in Ann Arbor, Werbin eventually decided to avoid doing business there ...". I'm quite certain that Elderly will do business wherever they can. Perhaps this means "decided to move from Ann Arbor"? This article badly needs a fresh pair of eyes to look it over. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed these. As I said earlier, I'm at the point where I'm not seeing anything else and multiple editors have had their eyes on it for a few days. I will poke around for another copyeditor but I'm starting to lose confidence that the article is ready if it's as bad as you keep saying. I might have to try again at a later time. --Laser brain (talk) 03:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get discouraged, I'm wavering now. ;-) With just a bit more copyediting I might be changing my mind and supporting this article soon. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 14:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I noted that Epbr123 has also gone through it in the last 24 hours. --Laser brain (talk) 17:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. I made some copyedits. It is a fine read, indeed. Couple questions I was left with:
    • Werbin and Sharon McInturff, his college friend and business partner, leased retail space in East Lansing, Michigan for $60 a month in... - could a year be placed in that sentence for better context on the $60?
    • In 1986, Werbin bought out McInturff and is now the sole owner. - tense shift in middle of sentence. bought out McInturff to become the sole owner.?
    • has become popular and internationally known due to its attention to folk music niche markets - I would like to tone down the language but concerned that I'd change the meaning. Would 'has become popular and internationally known within the folk music niche markets' be fair to say? Also, in 'its reputation as a premium repair shop' does "premium" have a technical meaning, or can it just be removed as an unnecessary adjective?
      • It is known outside folk music too; most guitarists I've ever met have heard of Elderly Instruments. I removed the word "premium" since it doesn't seem needed. I used it because they tend to take repair jobs that other shops reject, as noted in the Repairs heading. --Laser brain (talk) 03:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It has been noted for carrying "elite" brands - noted where/by whom?
    • Likewise, in an edit I qualified the 'Elderly is well-known for its liberal policy..' with according to x magazine it is...unless the magazine was quoting somebody else saying it was well-known. Could you do the same thing (inline qualifier) for the 'Customers are encouraged to pick up...' sentence (so it isn't WP saying it is ok pick it up, but rather "according to x it is encouraged."). --maclean 02:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Branham source supports all the statements in that paragraph, so I reworded to include what you mention above. Thanks for the comments! --Laser brain (talk) 03:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Certainly a well-done article. Only two things stand out for me as being iffy. One is the persistent use of "also". The second is the use of broad generalizations (like "well-known") - being called well-known in the Lansing Business Monthly doesn't translate into a universal label, but could mean well-known in MI or in the music industry or the Lansing business community. I'd prefer to see this qualified, or better yet proved rather than simply stated (for example in an edit I removed the sentence '...reputation for being an influential retailer...' because the next sentence proved it, making the first sentence just an indulgence - and my personal writing style shies away from those). --maclean 07:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do 85 employees all work in that one building? It has two parking spaces! maclean 07:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have edited the generalized statements to exactly what the source supports. For the statements that Elderly is nationally known, I have added a national reference supporting. Let me know if you think more sources are needed - the Billboard article also supports the statements that Elderly is nationally known for its repair services and internationally known as a retailer. Yes, all 85 employees work in that complex! You can't see in the picture, but there is parking all up and down the surrounding streets and there is a lot in the back. --Laser brain (talk) 14:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. As a result of all of the copyediting work that's been done over the past couple of days I'm going to support this article's nomination now. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose. Insufficient review. Single editor. Editorial marketing bias in article terminology.(Aside:possible sock-pups)--64.181.90.184 (talk) 00:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. While comments from IPs are of course welcome, I wonder whether they may actually cast votes. Why don't you set up an accout?Jasy jatere (talk) 15:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Our first small business FA! (where small = < $1 billion annual revenue) --maclean 01:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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