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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Colin Robert Chase/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 29 November 2021 [1].

Colin Robert Chase edit

Nominator(s): Usernameunique (talk) 04:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Most scholars are known for their conclusions; Colin Chase, by contrast, was known as the driving force behind "one of the most important inconclusions in the study of Old English". In a career cut short after 13 years, Chase nevertheless produced major works including The Dating of Beowulf, which put paid to the idea that the date of that epic poem was settled.

This article began as a two-sentence stub, then was expanded and given a good article review by The Rambling Man. I've expanded it further since, particularly with reviews of Chase's major books. Concise and complete, the article is ready to be nominated here. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • The lead image is of very poor quality= - are there any possible alternatives? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:40, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nikkimaria, unfortunately this is the only photograph of Chase I have been able to find. I may try reaching out to Roberta Frank to see if she knows more about it and could provide the original, or to Chase's family, although the latter approach would require some legwork. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:17, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Graham Beards edit

Support Comments I made a couple of edits to the Lead. This sentence needs work to deal with the repetition of "balanced" and clarity of meaning: "Each chapter took a different perspective, such as historical, metrical, stylistic, and codicological; Chase's chapter suggested that the poem could be dated by its balanced attitude towards heroic culture, balanced between appreciation and admonition, reflecting a time when heroic culture could be seen positively, but without romanticisation or infatuation." I'm concerned about the "comprehensive" criterion and Wikipedia:Notability (academics). Are there any sources about Chase? I don't think a list of Chase's publications is enough for FA. Graham Beards (talk) 13:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Graham Beards. I've reworded that sentence as follows: Each chapter used a different approach, such as historical, metrical, stylistic, and codicological, to attempt to date the poem; Chase's chapter looked at the poem's balanced attitude towards heroic culture, reflecting both appreciation and admonition, to suggest that Beowulf was written at a time when heroic culture could be seen positively, but without romanticisation or infatuation. As for whether there are "any sources about Chase", the answer is yes: indeed, the very first source used in the article is his obituary from Old English Newsletter. This obituary, like the article as a whole, covers Chase's life and career, and should resolve any concerns about "comprehensiveness," however understood. (In any event, that criterion is best understood as requiring a comprehensive survey of the extant secondary sources, which this article unquestionably does.) As for notability, this is a surprising place to raise it, given that the article has survived years, and multiple reviews (including creation, DYK, and GA), without question. But while Chase's early death may have robbed him of the opportunity to collect some of the indicia of academic notability, such as a named chair, his work clearly had "a significant impact in [his] scholarly discipline"—even leaving aside his other work, he put together "one of the most important inconclusions in the study of Old English", with many hundreds of citations to its name. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:17, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am surprised this has not be raised before now and since it hasn't, it should be raised here; this is FAC after all. So all we have is a short obituary in a low-profile journal. Having read it, I think it's enough but the article needs expanding with regard to the methods Chase used to date Beowulf since this seems to be his main claim to fame. To me, the article seems incomplete for a FA. I am open to convincing to the contrary, but in the meantime I oppose the promotion.Graham Beards (talk) 07:57, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Graham Beards—glad we can get at least one issue out of the way. As to expanding discussion of The Dating of Beowulf, are you thinking about more coverage of the book (and all its chapters) as a whole, or of Chase's chapters in particular? The reason the book is currently dealt with in overarching fashion is because its conclusion—that credible arguments exist for ascribing Beowulf to many centuries, not just one—is more important than any one of those arguments. With that said, I'm happy to add more about it. How about adding a two- to three-paragraph subsection somewhat like this one, first starting with a paragraph summarizing the book and its arguments, and then getting into its reviews and impact? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:05, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just Chase's chapters with his ideas and arguments. I think this would be an improvement; especially the reviews and impact as these would relate to Chase. The article does seem incomplete at the moment. Graham Beards (talk) 19:12, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Graham Beards, how does it look now? I've removed the section on the book to its own paragraph, and added both a summary of Chase's contributions and a sense of where they fit into the broader dialogue over the date of the poem. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's certainly an improvement. I have retracted my "oppose" and I'm interested to see what other reviewers have to say. Did you have any luck in obtaining a better photograph? Graham Beards (talk) 08:49, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've sent an email to Frank regarding the photograph. Still haven't been able to find much beyond the names of Chase's children, meanwhile, so haven't been able to reach out to them. (One possibly edited the page last year—see here—but doesn't have emails enabled, and may not get talk-page alerts.) --Usernameunique (talk) 04:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Wehwalt edit

  • " His best-known work, The Dating of Beowulf, was credited with challenging the accepted orthodoxy of the dating of the Anglo-Saxon poem Beowulf, and leaving behind what was described in A Beowulf Handbook as "a cautious and necessary incertitude".[2][3]" Cannot this be made more direct? As in "... Beowulf, challenged the accepted orthodoxy of the dating of the Anglo-Saxon poem Beowulf, leaving behind ..."
  • Is "classics" really a field of study at American universities? Obviously the disciplines that make up the term "classics" are, but looking behind to my mis-spent undergraduate days at university, which was reasonably well-regarded, I don't remember anyone who said they were studying "classics".
  • The source, which is Chase's Old English Newsletter obituary, says that "Chase received his B.A. at Harvard in 1956, and for five years attended a Jesuit seminary, studying classics and philosophy". On the sixth page of his dissertation (link; should be available as part of the free preview), he mentions having studied "English Literature", "Elizabethan & Jacobean Tragedy", and "Philosophy", although he seems to skip over that five-year period spent at a Jesuit seminary where he apparently studied "classics". Absent a better source, I'd be inclined to stick with how his obituary terms it. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:36, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His father, Robert Lamont Chase, was a newspaper executive, and his mother Mary Coyle Chase, a Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright.[4][5]" shouldn't the mother have a comma before her name too?
  • Can anything be said about his pre-university schooling or life?
  • Not much, unfortunately, although I did just find a brief piece written by his mother, leading to: Chase grew up in Denver, where he attended Teller Elementary School. The success of his mother's play Harvey led to some bullying in fourth grade, leading his mother to write a guest column about it in the Dunkirk Evening Observer. Tried to also find a way to work in Chase cutting up his mother's pink satin wedding dress to use as a Superman cape, though not sure where it would go... --Usernameunique (talk) 21:52, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the Jesuit seminary have a name?
  • See above. The obituary is the only place I've seen this mentioned. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:36, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Chase's own attempt" what is this?
That's it. Very interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Wehwalt. Responses above --Usernameunique (talk) 21:52, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note edit

This nomination is into its fourth week and has received just the single general review. Unless it sees more activity over the next few days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:45, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild & Buidhe, I believe all comments have been addressed. No rush on timing, but would you mind if I nominated Robert Howard Hodgkin in the meantime? Thanks, --Usernameunique (talk) 22:08, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Cas Liber edit

Taking a look now.....

"'He additionally participated in the revision of Jack Ogilvy's Books Known to the English - given this isn't linked, is it worth a short sentence/clause on what it's about?
Done: "He additionally served as an administrative committee member at the early stages of the project to revise Jack Ogilvy's Books Known to the English and create a reference work mapping the sources that influenced the literary culture of Anglo-Saxon England."
Anything else to add about Two Alcuin Letter-Books?
Added some more details: "Collected for Wulfstan, Archbishop of York, two centuries after Alcuin's death, the letters were preserved in a manuscript from the Cotton collection at the British Library, and many were apparently intended as didactic messages rather than personal correspondence; others were "model letters" including 'thank you' notes and 'get well' cards, likely to help students learn how to compose letters in Latin." --Usernameunique (talk) 22:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise not finding anything to complain about.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:35, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, Casliber. Responses above. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok cool - additions are cool at rounding out the article a bit. nice work Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:02, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

  • Is there a reason to pull out those two particular chapters in Books? If so, suggest abbreviating the citation
  • Those are the two that Chase wrote. He was the editor of the entire volume, but the other chapters were written by others. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:52, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, in that case suggest abbreviating. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent in whether you include publisher and/or location for periodicals
  • FN1: this isn't really a republication, it's just the online version of the same publication. Ditto FN18. (Conversely, FN5 is a republication)
  • I don't have access to the original source, so am relying on the republication. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:58, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which is fine, but the citation should reflect that this is a republication. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:10, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes Oryx Press a high-quality reliable source?
  • The authors appear to be reputable people who did their due diligence. They are an information specialist, and a professor of library administration at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. According to the preface, the work "was inspired by the difficulty we had as librarians when attempting to answer questions from students and library patrons about the people who won the award". --Usernameunique (talk) 06:19, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure that would qualify them as experts on this topic. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even if not, then writing the book on the topic would presumably do so. After all, there's a reason why "to write the book (on)" means "to be the original expert or authority (on something)". (Per the OED.) That appears to be a higher standard that what is called for, given that a work does not need to be by an expert to be reliable. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:52, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a couple of different ways in which we can judge a source to be reliable - one being the expertise of the author(s), another being the quality of the publisher. Which brings me back to, what makes this particular press a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:10, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It had significant experience publishing works of this nature, e.g., "databases and directories, encyclopedias and other reference works, professional monographs, guides for technical writers, and professional bibliographic journals" (source). It was taken over by Greenwood Publishing Group, hence why it now lacks a significant online presence. Many of its publications can nonetheless be seen here; Who's Who of Pulitzer Prize Winners, for its part, is held by at least 391 libraries. --Usernameunique (talk) 00:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN27: page?
  • U of T is a publisher not a work
  • Be consistent in when you include retrieval date.

Nikkimaria (talk) 01:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Nikkimaria. Responses above. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:19, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria is this a pass for source review? (t · c) buidhe 13:27, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like the point re: FN5 has not yet been actioned or responded to. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:11, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria & Buidhe I don't love the result—it leaves me citing something I haven't even seen—but I've done my best. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Aza24 edit

  • Thank you, as always, for giving important academics the quality articles they so often lack

Lead

  • "the accepted orthodoxy" is a bit vague. After reading the article and coming back to this comment, it makes sense now, but should be clear within the context of the lead alone
  • Clarified with the bolded clause: His best-known work, The Dating of Beowulf, challenged the accepted orthodoxy of the dating of the Anglo-Saxon poem Beowulf, which had settled on a date in the latter half of the eighth century, and left behind what was described in A Beowulf Handbook as "a cautious and necessary incertitude". --Usernameunique (talk) 05:34, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence starting with "Chase's two brothers became actors" is a huge sentence, could it be split without sacrificing the fluency of the ideas?
  • are the "eight articles and chapter" on Alcuin, or? Also I feel like the semi-colon could be a period, but I don't know that I'm interpreting the sentence correctly
  • That was a monster sentence too. Split in two, which I think solves both problems. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:52, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

  • It is a bit odd to call him the son of "a Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright" when she wasn't such at the time of his birth
  • He received a Masters of Arts from both universities? Or did he begin it at one and finish at the other?
  • This point has always bugged me, and I've added a footnote that clarifies it. While his obituary mentions the Johns Hopkins University masters, his résumé from his 1971 thesis—which you would certainly expect to mention a significant degree—doesn't. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:36, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Johns Hopkins University Commencement Program of 1964, which records the degrees conferred by JHU at the 1964 awards ceremony, lists Colin Robert Chase as being awarded a Master of Arts in English, and as having been awarded an M. A. T. from St. Louis University in 1962.
(https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/bitstream/handle/1774.2/36818/commencement1964.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y, p. 24) Felix QW (talk) 12:27, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Felix QW, thanks very much for finding that. That's very helpful. --Usernameunique (talk) 09:04, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Career

  • In the lead you have Anglo-Saxon literature but the text has 'Anglo-Latin literature'. I assume that the terms are interchangeable, but at risk of confusion, I would stick to one
  • Date for the Two Alcuin Letter-Books?
  • perhaps "lives of the saints" would better link to hagiography?
  • Do we know what type of cancer, for either him or his wife?
  • You have a mix of ISBN 13 and 10s, and not any clear (?) reason. There is a helpful converter here if that helps.
  • They should have all been 10-digit ISBNs (per WP:ISBN#Types), as they're all pre-2007 works, and were thus printed with 10-digit ISBNs. I've fixed the ones that were 13 digits. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:52, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really think an extremely brief line on what Beowulf is, and how scholars have been mulling over it for hundreds of years could be included in the career section (to give context). E.g. Chase's research frequently engaged with Beowulf, a medieval epic poem which is among the most important and studied works of Old English literature". I would not oppose over the exclusion of a line like this, but thought I'd put it out there. Aza24 (talk) 03:07, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added a line about the poem. Aza24, thanks very much for the review and comments. --Usernameunique (talk) 08:54, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A pleasure, truly. Your efforts don't go unnoticed. Happy to support. Aza24 (talk) 02:12, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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