User talk:ZiaLater/Archive 1

Deletion discussion about Riothero.com

Hello, ZiaLater,

I wanted to let you know that there's a discussion about whether Riothero.com should be deleted. Your comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riothero.com .

If you're new to the process, articles for deletion is a group discussion (not a vote!) that usually lasts seven days. If you need it, there is a guide on how to contribute. Last but not least, you are highly encouraged to continue improving the article; just be sure not to remove the tag about the deletion nomination from the top.

Thanks, Vanjagenije (talk) 17:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Potential Conflict of interest

Zia, wanted to ask your opinion on this first. User: Riothero is very active on Venezuelan pages with a clear bias. I noticed your page for Riothero.com which led me to that actual site: which also has a very clear bias. Its almost certain the same person runs both the site and the Wikipedia account. Is this worth bringing up on the COI noticeboard? I understand any user may have certain biases, but this is a pretty big one. DaltonCastle (talk) 19:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I thought about raising the same issue. It is a serious concern, due to the nature of the editing. bobrayner (talk) 22:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

@DaltonCastle:,@Bobrayner:, I am not sure about noticeboard activities, so taking any action would be up to you both. It is interesting because I asked him on his talk page about the relation but he deleted it. I do not want to be accused of anything in my edits so I will not create a notice on Riothero, but since you both seem to know the policies more than me, the correct decision with any user is to make sure WP policies are not violated due to the interests of a single individual so you may do so. Feel free to discuss this with me further if more needs to be done to uphold such policies and if anything is needed for the COI noticeboard.--ZiaLater (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether WP:COIN is the best place to take this problem. COIN works relatively well with the most common type of COI editing - promoting specific businesses and musicians etc - but I feel it less effective dealing with cases where there is more general POV-pushing which just happens to be aligned with the interests of some prominent real-world ranter. Is there a better noticeboard, or is COIN the least-bad option?

• The Neutral point of view noticeboard is good at dealing with individual NPOV issues but maybe less effective when they span ten pages and a hundred different edits. Third opinions have the same limitation.
• DRN is more structured but it doesn't stop a determined editor.
• RfC/U rarely generates more than empty accusations and counter-accusations which eventually die down without action.
• AN/I is less rule-bound and has less predictable outcomes - that can be a plus or a minus.
• Or maybe we could get some extra input from a wikiproject first? WikiProject Venezuela, maybe?
• We also have the nuclear option, if everything else fails.

bobrayner (talk) 01:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

@DaltonCastle:,@Bobrayner:, the Neutral point of view noticeboard seems like the best option as there are multiple edits of POV on hand. The WikiProject Venezuela also sounds like a good idea, though I am not sure if we will get a response since I do not know how active the users are on the project.--ZiaLater (talk) 02:04, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok, im going to go ahead and put it up at the NPOV noticeboard. If you guys could watch the page and give me some support that would be great. DaltonCastle (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

@DaltonCastle:,@Bobrayner:, This link solves our question on if Riothero is of Riothero.com. I also find it funny how Riothero calls me a guy... (if he is directing comments at me).--ZiaLater (talk) 04:04, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Certainly interesting. But the consensus at the board I believe is that we would have to prove they are taking payment, or in some way are affiliated with the Venezuelan government. DaltonCastle (talk) 04:55, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

@DaltonCastle:I have also read that concerning COI, just keeping up with your concerns. I sometimes prefer users with an opinion to make sure things don't get out of hand, but I do not like the censorship of work. Unfortunately with Venezuelan topics, there are either the radical left who censor or the radical right who add nonsense without sources. I hope I don't have to explain that I am different and that I just have a new interest, but I'm sure you know how it goes... politics are ridiculous and not worth the hassle... --ZiaLater (talk) 05:35, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Trust me, I agree with you. I understand, and appreciate bias to a degree. But blanking pages is not ok. Hopefully we have drawn some attention to this user's actions. DaltonCastle (talk) 05:44, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

@DaltonCastle:I only wish for a free and fair Wikipedia where we can all work together. Hopefully this will bring more of an understanding between us users and we can build upon this.--ZiaLater (talk) 05:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Is anyone watching this article? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:13, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia:I will take a look. Is there a reason given?--ZiaLater (talk) 07:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Nope. I've asked the editor twice to justify the POV tag-- no response. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Help with a mess...

@Bobrayner:,@DaltonCastle:,@SandyGeorgia:,@Wilfredor: since all of you have been in recent contact with me, I would like to ask for some assistance. A recent edit here has left an NPOV mess that is written just like an essay. I was tempted to delete the edits at first until I noticed some fairly reliable sources (though there are some that may still be definitely unreliable, one I removed). The section has also mostly focused on oil politics instead of actual international relations. I will most likely need help and opinions for fixing this mess.--ZiaLater (talk) 04:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Because of the date (near term-end at US universities), and the use of offline sources from a new editor, I would not be surprised if this is student editing (see all the problems and issues at WP:ENB-- they try to cram content in for a grade when the course ends). Students often edit war to keep their content in, so they can be graded. I also suspect copyvio because of the tone of the writing. Moved it to talk, see if the new editor talks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:45, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks SandyGeorgia, I guess we'll see what happens on the talk page.--ZiaLater (talk) 06:19, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Nice work by SandyGeorgia. I think that one of the central ideas (oil as the building-block upon which foreign-policy initiatives are built) is actually quite good, and I know that other reliable sources have made much the same point; but the devil is in the detail, and the tone of that text is really not helpful. bobrayner (talk) 16:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to a university library, or even one of those sources, so we can do a plagiarism/copyvio check? If there is no copyvio, there may be some salvageable content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:05, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Frustratingly, I don't have most of those sources, but in Goforth I haven't seen any hint of copyvio (or even close paraphrasing). bobrayner (talk) 18:25, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

You have Goforth? If the new editor hasn't committed copyvio on one source, unlikely they did on others. Then I feel better about moving the text in, if the opinions of the writers can be attributed, and removing the unsourced. See Talk:Bolivarian Revolution/sandbox1. All of the stuff that is cited still needs to be attributed to the authors who hold those opinions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:27, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I have no copyvio concerns. My concerns would me more around tone; it's still seeing things from a Bolivarian point of view - WP:INUNIVERSE, if you will - rather than a distant, neutral view. bobrayner (talk) 18:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

If you have no copyvio concerns, then by all means, dig in and edit the sandbox so the cited content can be moved back. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Good job to you both. This is the cooperation I like to see on Wikipedia. I will take a look and possibly dig in myself. Thank you!--ZiaLater (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Zia ... I've not edited with you before, so just to doublecheck that you know when moving content, that we have to retain via edit summary a link to contribs, so edit summary has to say "Moved from Talk:Bolivarian Revolution/sandbox1" if you move it back in. Saludos, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:35, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

You rock. You all rock. It's a pleasure working with y'all. (Certainly more fun than working on Balkans articles). bobrayner (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Excellent work!!. Unfortunately, the articles in Spanish are poorly balanced. I would not surprise me that the tentacles of government are in this --Wilfredor (talk) 17:06, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit summaries

Hi, Zia; Happy New Year. See this message I left a few days ago for Riothero; the same applies here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I know, I saw your message and have given better edit summaries following that. I apologize.--ZiaLater (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Just because someone seems to want a fight doesn't mean you have to give it to them. If/when the time comes to rename the article, then that can be debated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding SandyGeorgia, I was just replying that I won't prove anything after this last edit on the talk page.--ZiaLater (talk) 00:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Not related to this discussion, but perhaps you remember Derwick Associates? Well, that editor was a paid editor,[1] hired by a PR firm, and when editors are paid by the hour, they love to get you into long involved discussions going nowhere!

The discussion at 2014 Venezuelan protests is going nowhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:02, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense. I was getting sick of it anyways. Thanks for the explanations!--ZiaLater (talk) 16:54, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

María Corina Machado

There is no refernce to her nomination in any english language sources. The winner was nominated by ALDE which the Spanish source names as her nominating party. The entire reference to Sakharov Award should be removed as it is obviously incorrect. [2] [3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cathar66 (talk • contribs) 01:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok I see now. She was not formally nominated by the EU but was promoted by the UPyD party. So it is not totally incorrect, just not specific enough. I see that you are new to Wikipedia and would like to welcome you here. As for Wikipedia sources, they can be in any language. Thanks for communicating about our edits though, it is easier using the talk page than edit summaries.--ZiaLater (talk) 03:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I guess was correct according to this and this, both saying that it was just proposed by UPyD. And I'll also apologize for treating you like a newbie since I guess you have been working on Wikipedia before.--ZiaLater (talk) 04:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks I've been off WP for a while and I'm a bit rusty. You made me check references on this but it's a lot less reported in the media than I would have expected. Papers must get too much EU PR.Cathar66 (talk) 13:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I understand. If I don't contribute for just a few days I get pretty rusty. Thanks again for discussing this.--ZiaLater (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

A few days! For me it's been a few years :). This is probably a relapse. Thanks. Cathar66 (talk) 23:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

About Diosdado

I think so that could be interesting add this information to Diosdado article. What do you think?. Thanks --Wilfredor (talk) 12:16, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

@The Photographer: I put the majority of that information in the Corruption in Venezuela already. Thanks for showing that to me though. I moved a lot of his corruption allegations to the Corruption in Venezuela article because it was starting to get too long in his own article giving it undue weight. I did summarize and place the drug trade allegations in the summary of the Cabello article and provided a link to the Corruption in Venezuela information. Once again, thanks for the info!--ZiaLater (talk) 14:19, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Sir. I am searching the right way to write in english Wikipedia without being banned because my low english level. I will try help you in any situation. Please let me know any information that you think important for me. A hug --The_Photographer (talk) 10:42, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@The Photographer: No problems. Your English is not too bad, but if you need help with any corrections, let me know. You can place things on your sandbox and I could assist if needed. Then it could be placed in an article. Oh, and "Sir"? haha--ZiaLater (talk) 16:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Better source: Foreign Policy magazine. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks @SandyGeorgia: If you could, improve this article about Leamsy Salazar. I have to suddenly move somewhere but I'll help finish it in a few hours.--ZiaLater (talk) 17:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

RSN

I started a discussion regarding that gov't document here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Declassified US document. Please try to keep the responses short and sweet. The last time we had a board discussion, the responses were like essays and no one joined in.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 22:11, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I tried to explain my edits the best I could. Thanks for having a discussion with me. Sorry if it is too long since I began writing before I saw this message.--ZiaLater (talk) 22:26, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It's cool. Let's just hope people chime in.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 22:46, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Students killed

Hellow Sir, I am comebacking to translate everything that you are writing here about Venezuela to wp spanish. I was thinking how add the current students murdered--The_Photographer (talk) 17:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

@The Photographer: I would mention the 14 year old who was killed, but the other students who were murdered is still unknown and just speculation. Let me know if you need anymore help!--ZiaLater (talk) 18:19, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

FYI, BTW, I am translating "yours articles" to spanish. We could make a list to check translation status --The_Photographer (talk) 20:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the link but be careful with sources like Dolar Today since they aren't reliable. You can make the list if you would like and I can try to help. I will start a section below for us.--ZiaLater (talk) 21:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Articles

I have finished translating the article Bolivarian diaspora, please, if you have a list of articles you've created about Venezuela in English, please send it to me here, I'll start the translation at this time. Enormously grateful for the work you're doing. Please be careful with information from Venezuela newspapers, many of them are no longer reliable because they have been purchased by companies friendly government who censor information. Thanks --Wilfredor (talk) 23:20, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I know about the Venezuelan newspapers more than you think haha. Thanks for the warning though, I attribute all information to whoever states such things anyways such as the Venezuelan government, certain news sources, etc. I do not really have an opinion on politics in Venezuela right now because things have been bad since I used to be there. I do have an interest however especially with the economics and such which relates to many factors of society there.

Here are a few articles you may be interested in though:

• Economic policy of the Nicolás Maduro government
  •  Done --Wilfredor (talk) 14:41, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
• The Commission of Propaganda, Agitation and Communication of the PSUV
  •  Done --Wilfredor (talk) 15:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
• Bolivarian propaganda
  •  Done Very long article, however, now is done --The_Photographer (talk) 23:40, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• This file,this and this one could be used there. --Wilfredor (talk) 10:43, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

• MeQuieroIr.com
  •  Done --The_Photographer (talk) 12:18, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
• Timeline of the 2014 Venezuelan protests (Spanish article already exists, but this may be more detailed)

I hope this might help you!--ZiaLater (talk) 06:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the links, I will use the weekend to translate everything. It's amazing that you are aware of everything that is happening in Venezuela. I honestly do not know how to thank you. As for newspapers, I suppose you are aware, there have been some alternative means that have been blocked by an Venezuela internal firewall, here I leave some: dolartoday, maduradas, lapatilla.com, noticierodigital, runrun.es . Most of the print media have been bought by friends of the government (or government workers companies), so, but are electronic media that have been blocked in the country, so the use of proxies to access required. Some digital media also have been purchased as noticias24.com case. --Wilfredor (talk) 10:54, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

It is an interesting and difficult situation occurring in Venezuela right now. I usually use La Patilla since it is more reliable, neutral and creates some of its own news stories as well. Having reliably sourced information is sometimes tough for Venezuelan topics though since so many people have different opinions on media there. I wouldn't necessarily call DolarToday and other websites reliable sources in themselves, but sometimes they have links in their stories which go to actual stories from more reliable and acceptable sources.--ZiaLater (talk) 19:40, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

It is fairly impossible to find objective information because the government seeks to directors and employees of media, imprisoning these media managers (those who were in the country), this type of situation, adds pressure to radicalize media opposition. It is a conflict that is sought in order to misinform, create array of opinion and mainly create demons who then blame as the fictional economic war. At present there is no means of free print media, some print media as the univeral have been bought by a Spanish friend of the government group. It is a network of widespread corruption throughout Latin America, where drug trafficking is involved on a large scale using paramilitary movements. --Wilfredor (talk) 19:35, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

If you want, you could translate this small article: es:Escasez en Venezuela 2013-2014 --Wilfredor (talk) 17:50, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll take a look. I might move some things from the Nicolas Maduro Economic Policy article to there. I've been traveling the past few weeks so I haven't contributed much.--ZiaLater (talk) 03:38, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

No problem, you deserve to take the time that you consider relevant to your rest, remembering that this activity is only recreational and voluntary. Talking about something else, watch the news came today when we think it can not get worse, the government continually worsens the situation in all areas. This crisis has been implemented slowly and is the reason that people do not react, they think only of immediacy without vision. A technique of control and repression in tested in Cuba turned out to be also effective in Venezuela. another site of news in Venezuela that you can use how ref--Wilfredor (talk) 12:17, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry, I cant help you to translate another wp article, I am retired and blocked in wp:es. A hug --Wilfredor (talk) 14:38, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry. Thanks for recognizing the articles and all of your help. I know it is rough there and a lot less formal but you can at least be welcome here. Thanks for everything.--ZiaLater (talk) 14:45, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi ZiaLater, Do you know any mechanism to communicate privately ?, if possible. Thank you very much. --Wilfredor (talk) 12:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Nothing I can share on here I'm afraid. I'm really private about things so you'd be lucky to find anything on me. I'm sorry.--ZiaLater (talk) 17:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I understand perfectly, I made a mistake, my nick fully reveals who I am --Wilfredor (talk) 20:51, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

My old name on here had my mother's maiden name but I even thought that might be too much. I might be a little paranoid o_o jaja--ZiaLater (talk) 23:42, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

@The Photographer: Here is the section for articles.--ZiaLater (talk) 21:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

On es:wp there are a big "government influence", I started with my first step here, however, my english level is not good. --The_Photographer (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

@The Photographer: It wasn't too bad but I fixed a few things.--ZiaLater (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

take a look to my big problem on Spanish and nobody do nothing --The_Photographer (talk) 22:51, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

@The Photographer: I looked at it and it does look like some weird edits have been happening but I prefer not to intervene on Spanish articles that much since they are just big messes. Here are some links involved with the teenage pregnancy subject though (1 - 2 - 3 - 4). Here is another article showing how Venezuela's poor economy doesn't help with contraceptives either.--ZiaLater (talk) 23:34, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I was just looking for your observation, not your participation in these subjects in Spanish Wikipedia. I have been aware of the problems with drugs in Venezuela, I recently had to send medication to my mom who need to live (due to chronic illness). The government does not allocate dollars to pharmaceutical companies for importing medicines, because the priority is to maintain the clean image using the control. Additionally, sending medicines to Venezuela is extremely bureaucratic and in 90% of cases, medicines "lost" along the way. A customs control and packet traffic totally corrupt system where the probability that a packet arrives at its destination in Venezuela is practically nil. I sent a package with a friend full of medicines to three months of chronic medications, in addition to basic medicines such as flu, dengue, chicunguya and thyroid medications. I have been in constant communication with them by phone, my two sisters are doctors and they are "easier" to find drugs, however, the situation has worsened. The issue of drugs and generally poor health system, along with the brutal repression of corrupt government and the system of insecurity with the most dangerous criminal in the world is a breeding ground have turned this into a perfect storm. Additionally, it is not possible to observe a possible solution in the short or medium term, it is still possible that Venezuela is finished become a military dictatorship using a coup. A secretary of the OAS, a biased secretary with Chavez Latin American countries was recently chosen. US pronouncements against corrupt officials in Venezuela has been used to strengthen the power of Maduro in Venezuela by enabling powers. --The_Photographer (talk) 11:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I know the difficulties and I hope things get better with your family and all Venezuelans. Only time will tell.--ZiaLater (talk) 15:06, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks --The_Photographer (talk) 23:01, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

working process :) done, full translation :D --The_Photographer (talk) 18:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Looks good but you may want to fix some of the references. I can start getting graphs ready as well.--ZiaLater (talk) 02:39, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Venezuela money for Bolívar Article

Hi ZiaLater, I uploaded to my personal gallery a low size scanned version, however, i dont know how upload it here under fair use, could you help me? [4]. thanks --The_Photographer (talk) 01:12, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

@The Photographer:They look very nice and thanks for saving me a couple of minutes of scanning since I was missing one. Give me a few minutes and I'll guide you through it.--ZiaLater (talk) 01:16, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

@The Photographer: Ok, start on the WP Upload Wizard here, fill in the first few boxes and then click the "This is a copyrighted, non-free work, but I believe it is Fair Use" (middle selection). After that, there should be a selection dropbox where you can choose "Depiction of currency (banknotes, coins etc.)", for the "Original publication" you can place "own image". For the "purpose", you can say "It adds significantly to the article, as the article is specifically about the subject of the image." For the alternative, you can say "Cannot be replaced with a copyright free alternative." --ZiaLater (talk) 01:55, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice, thanks --The_Photographer (talk) 02:34, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Redundant text

During the economic crisis observed during --The_Photographer (talk) 19:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

About wp:es

There is a huge strength to keep articles related to Venezuela with a positive view toward government. I'm sure this is happening in English too, is an exhausting task having to spend so much time trying to keep the neutral point of view, especially when we are not paid for it. They usually use arguments sources governments or purchased media. --The_Photographer (talk) 14:11, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Yikes...

...at that CSP article! Isn't there a less biased source to be found to cite the same info you're looking to add? Either way, it's a good thing you're getting noticeboard opinions first because you know Riothero would have reverted anything you added from that piece in a heartbeat and I'm not sure I would blame him!  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 19:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I know... but I have been looking, I would just like to add more about the VIO functions than just the opinion of others about the VIO. It won't be the CSP opinion since there are enough issues with opinions on the article, but they do provide some interesting details on some operations. I'll add some stuff in a neutral manner and you can try to clean up if you would like. I'm learning some things from you!--ZiaLater (talk) 00:58, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I might have found an article that says some of the same things from the Center for Public Integrity! I thought it was already on the page but it wasn't. I may still try to use some of the CSP information but will try to avoid any opinions they have.--ZiaLater (talk) 23:17, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

FYI

Simon Cordova, director of the polling International Consulting Services (ICS), he is too Deputy to Parlatino by the Movimiento Bastión Revolucionario 200 4-Fases . :) --The_Photographer (talk) 20:33, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

That's an interesting find. I know some of us had a discussion about ICS before.--ZiaLater (talk) 00:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Great, same situation in es.wp. It's like a black hole of corruption bottomless. --The_Photographer (talk) 14:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

La Patilla

Hi Sir, please, be carefull using "La Patilla" how reference in english article from this moment. Good bye Patilla --The_Photographer (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on that now. For you, I'd recommend Efecto Cocuyo if the situation with La Patilla raises too much concern.--ZiaLater (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

@The Photographer: This may all be talk since Cabello is going after Spanish media too. La Patilla servers are outside of Venezuela (I think) and since they don't need a broadcasting license, they can just operate online. I can see how the Venezuelan government can do things to journalists on the ground there though. Time will tell.--ZiaLater (talk) 15:16, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Propaganda image

If this image is deleted, all in this category could be deleted? --The_Photographer (talk) 17:50, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand exactly what they mean by it being "permanent". If you can find another image of that billboard it would help.--ZiaLater (talk) 17:48, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I remembered what it meant. I left a comment because I am not sure if it was removed from the public or not. If it was then it should be deleted but I am not sure as of right now.--ZiaLater (talk) 19:04, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

The file had been deleted, by my wife. Although I disagree, I trust her judgment. --The_Photographer (talk) 11:25, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Spanish version

Maybe, could be interesting for you take a look of Nicolas Maduro spanish version article. This article is more updated than english version, I think so --The_Photographer (talk) 16:45, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking about doing that recently since the English article seems bare. If the information on there is of quality, I will see what I can do.--ZiaLater (talk) 16:53, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I will try help you. --The_Photographer (talk) 11:32, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. I have been sick recently so I might not be editing that much for awhile. I need to catch up with other things too.--ZiaLater (talk) 12:27, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Please dedicate yourself to restore your health, health is important. I hope to know you're okay, spending too much time editing these issues is not good. Taking the time to leisure and entertainment is important. While you're sick, you might see some of your favorite science fiction movies, listen to music. Whatever the illness you have, please take all the time you want. Get well soon. --The_Photographer (talk) 14:19, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

New images

I uploaded (import from flickr) "miles" of images to commons about Venezuela topics, this image could be interesting for you --The_Photographer (talk) 17:57, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Internet control

Another problem with the control over the Internet on Venezuela using Colectivos --The_Photographer (talk) 13:07, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello, ZiaLater. You have new messages at Mbinebri's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Edit warring

You not only edit warred but now also surpassed 3RR. You might want to self revert in your own interest.--TMCk (talk) 22:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I may have done it on accident. I was trying to get to the talk page but people kept reverting as well.--ZiaLater (talk) 22:43, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

@The Magnificent Clean-keeper: wouldn't reverting it again just be another reversion on the page?--ZiaLater (talk) 22:55, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't or I wouldn't had mentioned it.--TMCk (talk) 23:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I cannot revert it through the button. Would a manual revert work? I still have some more things to add today.--ZiaLater (talk) 23:03, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Nobody cares "how" you revert.--TMCk (talk) 23:05, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I reverted it then.--ZiaLater (talk) 23:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• And re-reverted right after, thus see below.--TMCk (talk) 23:56, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I did try to put the link for a source back but I might have put back more than that. Either way you would've tried to block me, so I anticipated the block. I was not having a good day and you did not make it any better with all of that reverting confusion. This block has given me a pretty nice break though so thanks for that. Hopefully you can have faith in me someday and it seems like you might have understood my edits as well. I was trying to keep it NPOV, I promise.--ZiaLater (talk) 20:27, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

yada, yada, yada. Yes, you got me. I opened my account only to wait for you to show up so I can get you blocked. It had nothing to do with your edits at all. Keep enjoying your time off, tho.--TMCk (talk) 23:23, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I see you like Seinfeld too. Is it weird that I have been watching some on my time off too?--ZiaLater (talk) 01:21, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I like Seinfeld. I also like eating food and using the bathroom the day after. How about you? :) --TMCk (talk) 16:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

With the way I look, it seems like I let the food stay for too many days...--ZiaLater (talk) 17:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Well then, guess you're not my evil twin after all.--TMCk (talk) 17:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

References problem

Hello friend, I have some serious problems with Wikipedia in Spanish, several users are using recognized sources of newspapers purchased by the government to justify any number of follies. I want to know the experience you have on this, how to mediate these situations?. Thanks --The_Photographer (talk) 17:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I guess they are still reliable sources they are using because no one knows for sure if they're purchased or just afraid. Though their stances have changed abruptly, I think they could just use those for the articles on Spanish Wikipedia. If you could find another article from another source that shows both sides of the story, then you can add both sides of the story to the article as well. However, I do understand your concerns, Correo del Orinoco is definitely a Venezuelan government newspapers and that should be attributed to the information in the articles. Noticas24 is a weird source, they've changed their source and there was accusations that they have been giving information to SEBIN, though they can be seen as normally reliable as well. El Universal is probably one of the better sources I see being used, I have found both sides in their stories so they are not a horrible source, though they have ignored new reports about protests and deleted the sections for them.

Anyways, I hope this helps. Cheers.--ZiaLater (talk) 20:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that many hands editing. In Spanish there are hundreds of well constructed articles, however, that deep conceal a propaganda machine, I would think not, but there are extensive detailed articles of everything "good" that the government has made positive. Sysops and other users from Venezuela, they just look and not edited. I'm not sure why, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they censor because of fear. There really blind and I'm making an effort to think that these users act due to their own convictions and no other reason. I sometimes spend a whole day translating one of your articles and then they just change a verb or add a final sentence to change the whole idea and thus in his favor. I have unfortunately fallen into endless discussions. I add some information and immediately come to different users try to deflect it using non-neutral verbs to look inert, passive administrators. I now feel as if you were building a water tower. I have always tried to reflect both sides of the coin, but the government side is overwhelming. It is so absurd that it would be a great joke to someone in Venezuela. I just wanted to talk to you, I'm really alone in es.wp.

FYI Universal, btw noticias24 is pro chavism and they disabled comments in news. Cheers --The_Photographer (talk) 21:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Graph fix?

Can you fix this graph? I downloaded INE's table and it appears you used the mid-year poverty totals and not the end-year totals which are quite different for 2012 and 2013. Thanks!  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 13:56, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll take a look!--ZiaLater (talk) 13:59, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

@Mbinebri: Take a look. I have no idea where those numbers were from because they weren't even in the INE's data (I think?). Anyways, I also found out that the World Bank just uses the INE's data too from the looks of it.--ZiaLater (talk) 14:38, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look, but from what I can tell you just moved 2012 and 2013 down a percentage point. 2012 should be at roughly 21% and 2013 at 27%, which would make 2013 almost level with 2011. Btw, what program do you use for making graphs?  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 14:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, it seems like ECLAC didn't get enough data in 2012 and 2013 (I wonder why?) and had to use INE's statistics as well.--ZiaLater (talk) 14:53, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

How do you know?  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 14:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

It's exactly the same as the INE's and in a note, it says "Figures of the National Institute of Statistics (INE) of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, not comparable with those of previous years".--ZiaLater (talk) 14:58, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, you can't compare that data to other countries through ECLAC's statistics since it is "not comparable". So technically it might not be "second" or "sixth" in poverty reduction in Latin America. Hmmm...--ZiaLater (talk) 15:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

After looking at everything, I'll just place the INE/World Bank data since the ECLAC data has some inconsistencies.--ZiaLater (talk) 22:50, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Also another thing I noticed, the INE changed all of its recent stats since they are different from the ones I saved. Interesting.--ZiaLater (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I can imagine calculating poverty rates is rather complicated. If the UN or INE perhaps updated its calculation method or uncovered new info and subsequently updated its final numbers, I see no problem. We can just use the new ones or attribute a publishing date to the old ones. Removal is an overreaction—albeit a well-meaning one.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 00:26, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Getting any data from Venezuela is difficult for many reasons. I just removed the UN data again since the UN says not to compare it. I don't like presenting poor data to others which is why I corrected that graph quickly, though now that correction has me thinking.--ZiaLater (talk) 06:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

You're going to need a more substantial argument than that, Zia, if you want to remove cited info from a reliable source that only you have a problem with. You treat the UN's info as if a "not comparable" note negates all of it, which is absurd. If the UN's info wasn't credible, it wouldn't have published it. The fact that you removed even the 2011-2013 content under the "1999 and 2013 can't be compared" rationale shows you're a little too eager in your removals. If the UN's data is not comparable because it had to rely on the INE in 2012/2013, there are some solutions. We can either note the INE was used—although I'm still unclear on that—or simply limit the scope of the data to the last year the UN was using its own. Simple. I'm also confused on your claim that the INE and World Bank are the same numbers. The graph doesn't reflect that. Because the World Bank link didn't provide any numbers (unless I missed it?), I just removed it and left in the INE.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 13:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

On my unclear point, the INE and UN/ECLAC appear to have different numbers for 2012 and 2013.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 13:15, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, I read the document with the "not comparable" statement. It's a pretty terrible document, offering only three years' data, oddly choosing 2005, 2012, and 2013. ECLAC has a searchable database for these stats that's much more helpful. Because their 2012/2013 stats are still the same as the document referencing the INE, I went 1999-2011 for ECLAC alone and attributed ECLAC's use of the INE for 2012 and 2013. The only thing left "comparing" any dates now is the 2011-2012 transition, but I left it in because numerous sources explicitly make the comparison and the previous document only references 2005 as a incomparable prior year.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 14:11, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Hey, Zia, can you link me to where you got the World Bank poverty stats? I'm a little skeptical on how the World Bank's stats went from different from the INE's to what looks to be exactly the same. Thanks!  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 19:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Found it. Wasn't working for me when I tried last time. OK, I still have an issue though. If the World Bank doesn't arrive at its own stats—instead using the INE—why is it in the table? Its inclusion obviously skews the average by doubling up on one source.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 19:14, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I am working on it currently. Trying to compare old INE data, old UN data and see where it all falls in place.--ZiaLater (talk) 20:58, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

You're working too hard. All we really need is the most recent version of the stats from the UN/ECLAC and the INE. If you're redoing the graph, do you mind using the INE's mid-year numbers too? If they provide them, we might as well use them.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 21:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

If we use the mid-term numbers you don't see the annual result as the way it is presented in other forms like the ECLAC. It would be possible, but over so many years it might look sloppy. Also, the older source that has poverty rates back to the 1990s doesn't show the mid-year numbers, so only some years have this data.--ZiaLater (talk) 14:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Two questions about List of Presidents of Venezuela‎

First, is that one day presidency really relevant enough to be mentioned?

Second, don't you think that Chavez should have one line for each term (in total, four lines, corresponding to his four terms he served)? Incendiary Iconoclasm 03:54, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

@Incendiary Iconoclasm: First, yes, because the period surrounding the coup attempt is very controversial and Chávez was not president at that time. Second, see list of Presidents of the United States. There are less coups than the Venezuelan list but you'll get the picture. Thanks for using the talk page!--ZiaLater (talk) 04:24, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

New Congress

Hi ZiaLater, in this moment maybe you are sleeping, however, I am very happy because news!!. Thanks my friend --The_Photographer (talk) 13:27, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. Like I said to Riothero, I am don't care for either, but hopefully there will be more balance now and they will come together. I hope things will get less polarized soon and Venezuelans can work together to fix the crisis. One of the most valuable lessons I was taught in my life was forgiveness. Hopefully they can let bygones be bygones.--ZiaLater (talk) 18:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

English subtitles

Hi Zia, If you are interesed, you could help me to translate to english this subtitle to use it on Shortages in Venezuela article. Thanks --The_Photographer (talk) 14:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

@The Photographer: Hello again! I placed the translation here. If you made that video, it looks very nice.--ZiaLater (talk) 09:48, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your faster translation!!?. I did not make this video, however, I found it on youtube and was created by a designers team and I found this video very useful and with a neutral language. The next step could be add it to the english article, What do you think?. Btw, FYI --The_Photographer (talk) 11:41, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

It was removed from spanish article by a admin because it was "no neutral" --The_Photographer (talk) 12:41, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

About Political articles of Venezuela

Hi mate, I only want tell you that because it and it I had been banned to write any political article on spanish wiki --The_Photographer (talk) 17:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I would take a break. Time will tell soon enough what is going on there, just keep contributing with your awesome pictures.--ZiaLater (talk) 21:02, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Reply from AVM. who is also interested in Venezuela

Hi, ZiaLater. You wrote the following in the Smartmatic article's talk page:

Aren't you retired? I have a lot of different interests in Latin America and particularly Venezuela due to all of the developments occurring there.--ZiaLater (talk) 10:56, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

My reply:

Yes. Indeed, I am a retired Grandpa, a scientist and a musician. At first I was an enthusiastic Wikipedia contributor, seeking to build up a set of articles about Venezuelan musicians. But after I found that any idiot (for example, a Chinese guy living in the U.S.) could destroy what I had spent my time and toil writing, finding references, illustrations, etc. because in his ignorance the subject "was not notable enough", I began to feel disenchanted. The specific example here is my article on the Ensamble Gurrufío, now again challenged by some other idiot. You should have seen (as I did from the seat behind them, to my enormous enjoyment, back in 1996) composer Leo Brouwer and guitarist Carlos Barbosa-Lima sitting together enjoying a superb performance by those Gurrufío geniuses. Sitting? They were delighted, exhilarated, almost jumping from joy! Ask them if Gurrufío was not notable enough! Frustration from writing or editing articles about Politics en general, and about Venezuelan Politics in particular has proven to be still worse. So, in consideration to my peace of mind, I have quit editing actively, I only do it a few times a year.

Speaking about Venezuela, I fail to understand your motivation toward Smartmatic. You seem to have made it a matter of honour to repeatedly state it is a Venezuelan company. It is not, unless the nationality of the two surviving founders (one was killed in a plane crash - he was a French citizen) is of paramount importance to you. It was first founded in the USA back in the year 2000, and I think I can find the certificate of incorporation for you, given enough time. I'm a personal friend of its CEO, who lives in London. That's why I have intervened, or rather, meddled with the article. By the way, I wrote most of the lead section of the Electronic voting article a while ago, and I must say I'm glad that only ONE idiot reverted it, which I promptly undid. --The above is to convey the notion that I'm no ignorant on the subject, and the fact I have said friendship liaison could easily explain my interest in the company.

I'm a bit puzzled about you wording in your paragraph above. What aspect of Venezuela are you interested in? Perhaps I could help supplying some reliable info, and some research as well. I made the same offer to the CIA long ago, but they weren't hiring (HA HA HA!)

Regards, --AVM (talk) 03:46, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I thought you were retired from editing, that is why I asked, I hope it didn't sound rude. Most of the sources I found on Smartmatic stated that it is a Venezuelan company, it was actually founded there and the American part of the company was founded in 2000 or so. Smartmatic has many other entities that are spread internationally as well, I think a Dutch company was founded sometime near 2000 by them as well. So my rather innocent edit of noting that it was a Venezuelan company was attacked pretty quickly by supposed COI/sockpuppet accounts, which I found was interesting since why would they want to state that it was not a Venezuelan company.

The motivation behind editing Venezuelan articles is that the country as a whole is overlooked. So I try to keep articles up to date and to provide information to readers so that others may learn from history in the making. I have heard stories about Venezuela during the times you have stated (1970s to 1980s). That was the time to be alive there and I'm sure you have some unforgettable memories. So, I hope you don't regard me as one of those "idiots" editing on here. And trust me, CIA work usually isn't worth it, so I do all of this for free :)--ZiaLater (talk) 08:27, 23 December 2016 (UTC)