User talk:WillowW/Archive20

group (mathematics)

First off, let me say that I'm very glad you're both working on this article – it's helped me understand the concept more than the various websites and books I've tried to wade through since beginning work on Emmy. As I said, much of the info becomes somewhat impenetrable after the 50-yard line, but I don't know if that can be fixed; mathematics is just complex sometimes.

Anyway, here are some thoughts that came up while I was reading. Lemme know if you have any questions.

• In mathematics, a group is a fundamental object of the field of abstract algebra. A group is a set of elements with a single operation by which two elements may be combined into a third; to qualify as a group, the operation must satisfy several conditions. I'm used to getting the actual definition in the first sentence. Is there a particular reason it's second here?

• ...and form the core of several more complex algebraic objects... Is the "more" needed here?

• The examples are very helpful in aiding comprehension – but the section is titled "Definition and illustration", and I'm used to getting the formal definition first. Is there a reason for the inverted structure?

• The (to me) unusual facts that the • symbol isn't multiplication (which is what I learned in high school math classes), and that the symbols are read right to left aren't given much emphasis – at least early on. I wonder if perhaps we should mention that the • is often used for multiplication (or maybe that was just my school?), and that most equations are read left to right. Or is this too simplistic?

• I think linking square at the start of the symmetry group is excessive.

• Historically, the group concept has evolved in several parallel threads. I'd lose the word "Historically". Doesn't add much, in my opinion.

• We could really use more years (or at least a circa) in the first paragraph of History. Same for the third.

• The second paragraph, meanwhile, feels cursory and rushed. Another sentence or two describing more about Klein's program?

• All the last-name-only links are confusing. Is there a reason we don't also give first names? Maybe even nationalities? I know these are less standard in science/maths literature, but this is for a general audience, yeah?

• Strictly speaking the closure axiom is already implied by the condition that • be a binary operation on G. Perhaps: "...a binary operation on a group G"?

• The group operation on this set (sometimes called coset multiplication, or coset addition) behaves in the nicest way possible: "nicest" feels odd. Maybe we need a better word? (Is it possible to be POV in this situation?)

• The study of abelian groups is quite mature, including the fundamental theorem of finitely generated abelian groups, and reflecting this state of affairs, many group-related notions, such as center and commutator, describe the extent to which a given group is not abelian. I'd vote for a semicolon instead of the comma + "and" preceding "reflecting this state...".

• Examples and applications of groups abound. Why is the first part italicized in the article?

• A group is called finite if it has finitely many elements. This wording feels odd. How about: "...a finite number of elements."?

Good luck with this article, and let me know if there are other things I can do to help. – Scartol • Tok 21:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, S! :)

I think you and I had similar reactions to the article. I'd really like to write that introduction to mathematical groups, at least if I could Talk to you all while I did it. That sort of article might be about the right speed for us, and we'd be doing something useful, methinks. Meanwhile, the big boys could have fun in their sandboxes writing more advanced articles like Brauer group, to which people could graduate after reading ours. ;) But as Bram Stoker's Dracula reminds us, there are too few days in a century for everything we'd like to do. ;) Maybe I'll brood over it a little — lest I lay a new egg... ;) Willow (talk) 22:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you a lot, Scartol! Very nice. I've copied your comments over at the talk page, so that everybody can follow the long and winding improvement drive. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 11:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

So, in response to your, Willow, concerns, I have included some more science material. (I'm especially fond of this weird Jahn-Teller effect). As for the overall balance of applications: first of all, I realised that pretty much of the stuff you proposed was in essence already there. Now it is a little bit more laid out.

The whole story can only be picking out a few out of many + I do think that the omnipresence of groups in mathematics calls for closer coverage than the science examples (where there does not seem to be an overall organizing principle as opposed to groups vs. many mathematical domains). What do you think? Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to say, the lead is also rewritten. Hopefully to the better... Jakob.scholbach (talk) 19:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, Jakob, but I don't have the energy to study your article today. It's been a very bad day. Give me a few days, and I'll try to gather enough energy to help you. I know that you'll be understanding, so you don't have to write back. Answering would be a burden to me; I just want quiet time for myself. Willow (talk) 20:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hope you got some rest after your stressful day. Tim

Donuts make everything all better. Please don't respond, just rest. – Scartol • Tok 12:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Tim; kittens are a sure way to make me smile. :) There's not much else to smile about, though. Monday took away a dear friend and, oh yeah, my main paying job. Neither was totally unexpected, and I've been here before; all good and sweet things must come to an end, but letting go of them doesn't get any easier with practice. :P Forgive me if I don't reply again soon; I know that my friends care, but I'm trying not to dwell on — things until I'm stable again. I need to focus and not be paralyzed. I'll help as I can, though. Willow (talk) 11:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Catullus mass redirects

I can't believe he did that. I would like to seek consensus on reverting those redirects. I believe the information, that we worked hard to dig up, should be restored. That the subjects, together and separately, are notable enough for their own articles. Cheers, Dlohcierekim 14:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Today was already a bad day, so it doesn't really bother me. I think it's unimportant, and you should, too. I wish them every success and satisfaction in producing well-referenced, well-written and well-illustrated articles about Catullus. I also hold out hope that Kafka Liz will find and upload images for Catullus that will be acceptable to everyone.

Over time, I may try to improve List of poems by Catullus to a Featured List, as I did for List of scientific publications by Albert Einstein. It's hard to believe that it's already been a year since I made that list! Anyway, there's room enough there in the yet-to-be-written introduction for a decent micro-biography of Catullus, a discussion of poetic meters, and a list of scholarly references for each article, as I tried to collect. Omnia mutantur, nihil interit, especially on Wikipedia. ;) Let us both be of better cheer, Willow (talk) 19:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I look forward to reading it and I'm sorry did not have the opportunity to take Latin after high school. Cheers, and happy editing. Dlohcierekim 21:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Merci

I know you said don't write, but thanks for the cleanup. I can't believe I flubbed so many of the which/that dealies. I did write it during the end of the school year. Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 15:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

You'll have to forgive me, I don't know my own mind sometimes. Of course I like to hear from you and all my other friends; I just don't know if I can always answer, and I'll feel guilty if I leave kind messages unanswered. I don't want to talk about some things, but as long as we discuss other things, I'm keeping it together pretty well. Ergo in mathematica ego. ;) It's sweet to walk together in our own little garden of Eden, and to forget for a little while. :) Willow (talk) 19:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

And thank you again for your lovely praise. I saw this and thought of you. (In case you're not familiar with Super Mario Bros Level 1.. And this is also way fun, since we're on the subject..) Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 16:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It's odd to see my watchlist without your name. So I'm leaving you a Friendly Hello™! Now you're on it again. =) Scartol • Tok 21:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You're so good at making me smile. :) I'm so delighted to see your progress on Emmeline Pankhurst, too! especially since I fondly remember our racking our brains over the best "Emm-" names. :) But please forgive me, you of all my faithful friends, if I won't be able to spend much time on Wikipedia in the near future; it won't be for lack of yearning. :( I hope to remain at least a little engaged here, but I'm afraid that my happy, boundless and bounding frolicks in clover are becoming a little too bounded. I hope that's not true, and I'm trying to forestall that, but I may have run out of magic. :( I have required heavenly music to work mine ends upon thy senses; but now I must break my wand, burying it certain fathoms deep, and drown my books deeper than the sea — at least for now. A forlorn witch but not so wicked, Willow (talk) 22:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I know how you feel – I feel that way every June. Rest, and return ere long. You're needed here! Scartol • Tok 01:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

An astounding coincidence

Of course I'll be taken to Heaven by cats. ;) Thank you, gentle trickster and Tim, Willow

Here is something to make you both smile and wonder. All the best User:Loki and Tim Vickers (talk) 20:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

A riot! A riot! So merrie and gay...

I'm afraid of that dog... At any rate, I rewrote Stonewall riots and had such a good time doing it, that I'm spreading the love. It was a blast to write, and no doubt to witness, unless you got your ass kicked by the cops. I put it up for PR - if you are so inclined to leave notes there, I'd love it. If not, read it just for the fun. --Moni3 (talk) 18:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Alga creation from algaebase

Hi, apparently you have some experience with creating Wikipedia articles using data from Algaebase. I'm developing a bot using the Algaebase database to add the remaining genera to WP, and wondered if you might be able to spare any wisdom - particularly in terms of taxonomy, which apparently is somewhat inconsistent in Algaebase. Any advice would be very gratefully received! Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 19:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Martin,

I left you notes at the various WikiProjects, in the hopes you would find them, but I suppose I should've written directly to you. My basic advice is to hold off on mass article creation until you've perfected your bot as much as it can be. Patience and a scrupulous attention to detail will forestall grief and regret later on; it's much easier to mass-create articles than to mass-edit them, as I'm sure you're aware. In my case, I created the articles offline, proofread them, and then uploaded them by hand, which is a lot more painful on the wrists than a bot. ;)

I'm surprised that you estimate that Wikipedia is missing 90% of the Chlorophyta and Charophyta. I'm willing to bet that the number is less than 10%, although I daresay my estimate smacks of hubris and I'll be punished for it. ;)

In my letters at the WikiProjects, I mentioned my article classification scheme for the taxonomic articles, as well as two templates that seemed useful to me, although we could specialize them for algae articles.

I'm delighted that you've made personal connections with the people who run AlgaeBase, which seems to be the best resource for algal taxonomy by far. I was very clueless when I began, and didn't know about them at all; the algae articles were just a random enthusiasm and I took my data from the NCBI. So my taxonomic data were worse than yours. My advice here would be to use the most reliable but available resource from the first, and then go back and fix the errors on a case-by-case basis. You'll need to go back to each article anyway (see below).

If you were interested in improving the articles I created, you might consider adding the AlgaeBase reference instead of the NCBI reference. Also, you'll want to add AlgaeBase's citation for the lowest taxonomic level, but not for the upper ones. If the AlgaeBase people would let you add to the articles their lists of scientific citations for each taxon and their images as well, that would be incredible! :) Releasing at least one image for each algal genus under the GFDL or a similar license would be a huge benefit for the articles.

The really hard work begins after the automated uploads. You'll need to go through the taxa one by one, read the literature and summarize it to make it more than a stub. I'm easily distracted, so I never got back to that, trusting that real algae experts such as yourself would eventually turn up and do the job better than I could.

Good luck and God speed your work, Willow (talk) 20:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

RE:Peer review

I'll do my best. I don't have much experience with reviewing theory type articles, so this should be a new experience for me. Thanks for recruiting me. --Meldshal42? 11:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Newton's theorem of revolving orbits

I'll review this article later tonight, with a copy of Ch 17 of Spivak's Calculus in hand. Looks good from a cursory glance though. Protonk (talk) 16:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I'm really grateful! I was preparing myself to have to wait weeks for a reviewer, and now you're doing two in a row — that's wonderful. You're an awesomosaurus — wait, why is that a redlink? ;) I need to run off now, but I'll be back in a few hours to finish up the problem of Apollonius, especially the discussion of trilateration. Willow (talk) 16:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

PS. Oh, by the way, you might want to have a book on classical mechanics lying around, too, such as this one. At least, that's what I would want to have lying around. when reviewing. ;)

I would but I don't own one. Spivak devotes the entire chapter to discussing and proving Newton's theorem of revolving orbits, so I'll just keep it as a handy check. Protonk (talk) 16:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

If you have the time to take a look

When To Kill a Mockingbird was on the main page, an editor called into question a portion of the lead that he felt was not properly cited. I disagreed, he feels it was not resolved, and we seem to be at an impasse. If you have a moment to get involved, please allow me to link to today's discussion, and the discussion on July 11. I would appreciate your comments in the matter. --Moni3 (talk) 20:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

X-ray Crystallography, Again

Hello. It is I, anonymous poster from June 2008. I see you had some further discussion last month with M. Guifre.cuni regarding the Blender source for that splendid goniometer animation, but I cannot seem to contact him at the moment. Might said source still be available? (I'll be checking back here for your response.) 69.11.4.75 (talk) 03:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course I would do any favour for anyone grammatical enough to say "It is I". ;) Please e-mail me your contact information (see the button "E-mail this user" in the left-hand column?) and I'll send you back the Blender file. Honestly, though, the animation wasn't that hard to make; you could do it in an afternoon, I'm sure. Also, please consider becoming a user here, and contributing to X-ray crystallography, which I'm trying to make into a Good Article. Thanks! :) spritely 21:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't see that button in the left-hand column... quite possibly because I'm not a user. Oh well, I don't suppose I actually have to use the account if I sign up for one. (How else will I anonymously maintain the grammar of random Marvel Comic articles?) 69.11.4.75 (talk) 23:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Please forgive me for butting in, but you could take a look at Wikipedia:Why create an account?. You could always log out to edit comics articles as an IP! Tim Vickers (talk) 01:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I never did get a response to that message. Did my spam filter eat it for some reason? Kwyjor (talk) 16:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Kwyjor,

I'm very sorry to keep you waiting! :( I uploaded the Blender file to the Official Blender Model Repository, so that everyone could download it. It was approved this Sunday, but I forgot to check it and write to you. Please let me know whether the animation works for you, and whether I can help you in some other way. Have fun and good luck! :) Willow (talk) 03:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! I'm sure I will indeed have considerable fun. Thanks again!  :) Kwyjor (talk) 02:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Lemniscates

Greetings — I'll look into the hippopedes. Richard Pinch (talk) 06:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey request

Hi, WillowW I need your help. I am working on a research project at Boston College, studying creation of medical information on Wikipedia. You are being contacted because you have been identified as an important contributor to one or more articles.

Would you will be willing to answer a few questions about your experience? We've done considerable background research, but we would also like to gather the insight of the actual editors. Details about the project can be found at the user page of the project leader, geraldckane. Survey questions can be found at geraldckane/medsurvey. Your privacy and confidentiality will be strictly protected!

The questions should only take a few minutes. I hope you will be willing to complete the survey, as we do value your insight. Please do not hesitate to contact me or Professor Kane if you have any questions. Thank You, BCproject (talk) 23:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Brittany!

I'll be happy to help you both with the survey. :) I've started writing up my answers, but it's taking more than a few minutes. ;) Is it OK if I finish them tomorrow? Willow (talk) 03:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Hurray for us

In case you haven't seen it, we're on the front page. Whee! I'd thank you once more for all your fantastic work on that article, but I hate to repeat myself so often. =) Scartol • Tok 11:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

They say the secret of a good joke is repetition and volume. All you have to do is work on the volume.... ;)

Dear Scartol, I'm really touched that you thought of me, and I'm proud and happy that Emmy made it to the Main Page. But I think you're overestimating my contributions? I talked more than I walked, and intended more than I did. :( I worked pretty hard on trying to learn her mathematics, but I succeeded only in part—not that I've given up trying! ;)— and I feel that I contributed only modestly to the article. You did the lion's share of the work; and if you would make me happy, you should be radiant in knowing that your hard work succeeded so gloriously. :) More than the Main Page, my dearer treasures are my memories of our time working together in crafting something, perhaps not yet beautiful, but as warm and comforting as a loaf of bread. ;) Your friendship is very dear to me, Willow (talk) 11:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

*waving*

Sup? Just saying hey. You seem to be playing with numbers and stuff. Miss you. --Moni3 (talk) 17:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey Moni, I've missed you, too. The harvest is going OK, and the grapes and 2nd crop of raspberries have come in, but I'm blue, pretty awfully blue. :( Math helps a little with that, at least in small doses. No one else seems to care about those articles, so it's wonderfully quiet; I don't feel rushed and I can do things gradually, at my own pace, bit by slow bit. They'll never become FA's or GA's, but I can still make them pretty and nice. :) Willow (talk) 11:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The Willow Cheer-up Committee is in full action. Ninja move one! I bet you didn't expect this move, either! (Seriously, the entire Fail blog usually has me crying and wheezing I'm laughing so hard.) Oh, wait...break it down for poetry time:

I saw your sad
and your sadness is very sexy
strong fragile man
you know what I mean?
because this is love maybe
a _____

e.e. cummings? Not quite. Just Engrish. I also received this gift recently, and I'm not really sure I want to open it. And now, for the coupe duh gracie..

Something that happened just out my front door... Wait for it...

Brother Micah in the rain, ladies and gentlemen!!! --Moni3 (talk) 12:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Cat versus Monkey. :) Tim Vickers (talk) 16:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I love FAILBlog. That (and Sinfest) will cheer me up any day :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 16:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Each to his own. I'm teaching Roxana: The Fortunate Mistress and I'm having the time of my life. Who doesn't love a good novel-cum-spiritual autobiography, especially when its written from the perspective of a semi-independent prostitute? :) Awadewit (talk) 17:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Only because my pimp allows me to work on a rent-to-own system do I totally relate to that story. --Moni3 (talk) 18:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course, for a scientific knitter there is always giantmicrobes.com. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your cheery links; I laughed, I laughed so hard! :D I'm feeling better, more myself today, not because I've managed to make anything better in my topsy-turvy life, but because I've the bestest and kindest friends, who could make anyone smile. :) I'll be around; if you need me, just whistle ;) Willow (talk) 19:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Introduction to general relativity

Just so you don't wonder why I've started to re-write Introduction to general relativity instead of reviving the step-by-step re-writing with Awadewit and you: the article has been put up for FAR (here), so that everything is now somewhat more urgent than it was. Markus Poessel (talk) 19:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Willows and Revolvers

I keep thinking about you because you share a name with Willow Palin, and you're the only other Willow I know. (Maybe you're the same Willow even! If so, please make sure your mom knows 'bout science ;) I wish I could have a name like that. Luckily there's a site I found today where I can get one just like it. According to the site, if I were a Palin my name would be Revolver Trooper Palin. Not too shabby, eh? --JayHenry (talk) 04:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

That's funny! According to the server, my name should be "Hen Waffle Palin". :) I kind of like the name "Hen"; it reminds me of a baby book I had about a hen who asked other people to help her make bread. It was one of the first books I could read by myself. Hen asked her friends to help her to plant the seed, to grow the grain and mill it to flour, and finally to make the dough and bake the loaf, but unfortunately, no one helped her. After the loaves were ready and smelled wonderful, everyone wanted to share in eating them, but she refused them and ate the bread alone. I remember being very dissatisfied with that ending. :P

Oh, just for the record, I'm not Willow Palin. It used to be a rare name, but I think it's becoming more common. As an aside, my mom was also good at sports, but otherwise I don't think she had much more in common with Gov. Palin than Hillary Clinton does. ;) Willow (talk) 15:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I was talking about this name generator with some friends today and we got to talking about the names Bristol, Piper, Willow, etc. I mentioned that I actually liked the name Willow (perhaps because you do the name so proud) and a friend mentioned that they'd only ever heard it as the name of one of the characters in Buffy. What is the world doing to your good name, Willow?!? --JayHenry (talk) 03:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

In all fairness, we shouldn't forget Willow, which I remember as a fairly decent movie. Scartol • Tok 13:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Although a sorceress in the Buffyverse, Willow Rosenberg is really a wonderful person and a good role model for all Willows: supportive, loyal, gentle, sensible, wickedly smart, good with magic and computers,... all those nice qualities. :) OK, there was that one time when she flayed someone alive — but she had a really good reason for that! That was her "smartly wicked" phase. ;)

Willow is a pretty unusual name, but not too exotic, don't you think? I think it's on a par with Avril and Calista and names like that. I'm pretty fond of it and its connotations, unlike my other name. :P There are a few Willows around, such as Willow Bay, Willow Michelmore, Willow Johnson and, most recently, Willow Smith; I think it's becoming more common in recent years, as I said. One of my best friends growing up had the related Welsh name, Rowena, which is even more rare but graced with finer literature. Willow (talk) 14:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... Jay-Z, Jay Leno, Jay Gatsby, Jay and Silent Bob, Jay Rockefeller... do any of them smell sweet? p.s. Scartol, you're supposed to tell us what your name would be if you and Willow were sisters (ie if Sarah Palin were your mom)! --JayHenry (talk) 04:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

If Sarah Palin were (gods forbid) my mother, my name would be "Disowned Disobedient Rebellious Black Sheep Palin". They would sever all ties with me after I pledged my allegiance to anarchist principles and swore nonviolent revolution against the state capitalist model of exploitation and oppression to which the rest of the family has dedicated their lives. I wouldn't be invited to Thanksgiving, and I'd be the poster child for just how hard it is for so-called devout Christians in the US to truly turn the other cheek. Er.. I mean, I would be "Stag Tonnage Palin". Scartol • Tok 14:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Come now, Stag Tonnage, tell us how you really feel. -- Revolver Trooper 01:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Pictures from India

How can I send you a selected portfolio of my pictures from India? :) Awadewit (talk) 16:31, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Welcome home — I can't wait to hear how your trip went! :) I've sent you a new and better e-mail address where you can send me large files, and where you can tell all your stories to an eager listener. :) Have to run off now but talk to you soon, Willow (talk) 17:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I want pictures too! Can you make a Flickr or Photobucket slideshow? Scartol • Tok 18:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Just email me instructions. I am near dead from illness, though, so it will take me awhile. Awadewit (talk) 14:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Poor you! :( I hope you recover quickly! And Scartol, please send me instructions, too, in case I want to upload garden pictures. :) Willow (talk) 19:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

image for Apollonius

Hi, if you want I can create an image with the sought hyperbola with Mathematica or so. That shouldn't be a big deal. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 12:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Jakob! You're really nice. :) I was thinking of making an animation showing the tangent circle rolling over the other two and its center tracing out the hyperbola, similar to this image? Is it easy to do that in Mathematica? I think I can do it with an analogous computer program, but as you see, I'm always over-committing myself, so it'd be great if you wanted to do that for the article. :) I think my images always look too rough and amateurish, anyway. :( Willow (talk) 23:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I emailed you. Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Jakob. :) I'm not sure of the best way, but here's how I make animated GIF's. After I open the first image in the GIMP, I type Ctrl-Alt-o, which opens a new window to import the rest. I select all the remaining images by right-clicking on the first of them, Shift-(right click)ing on the last, and then hitting the "Open" button. Then I save it all as a GIF with a new name; the program is smart enough, and polite enough, to ask you whether you'd like to save it as an animation: simple and fun! :) Afterwards you can upload the animation to the Commons and categorize it under "Animated GIFs". I also sent you my e-mail, in case you wanted to send me the Zip file instead. Thanks again, Willow (talk) 21:00, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Fugal works by JS Bach

Hi Willow, Your post at Wikipedia talk:Accessibility reminded me: did you catch my message at Talk:List of fugal works by Johann Sebastian Bach? I think the article has the potential to be quite interesting, giving examples of the different types of fugues Bach composed, with sound files, either digitised or live recordings from list of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach. Can you ping me with {{talkback}} when you reply? Thanks, Graham87 12:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

OMG — I can't believe that I didn't notice your message for over a year, I'm so sorry! :P Ummm, time flies when you're having fun? But your message also left me jubilant; my first thought wasn't embarrassment, but rather: "At last." You cannot imagine how I've waited for someone to care about fugues. So, suffice to say, I do indeed see the promise of that article and I would be delighted to work on it. My own thoughts had been to convert it into a sortable list, similar in form to List of scientific publications by Albert Einstein; and then to add columns for sample recordings and descriptions of the type of fugue, e.g., the number of themes, their observed inversions/retrogrades/augmentations/diminutions/stretti/bass pedals, along with the answers, the episodes, and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I totally need to warn you, however, that I'm easily distracted, especially if my friends here ask for help, so as the message above says, I'm an unreliable coworker. :( But I'll be very happy to do the very best that I can. :) Willow (talk) 22:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

PS. Thanks so much for your help at the problem of Apollonius! Your message made me want to rush out and invent a tactile printer for SVG images. But I fear that others would be better qualified to do that than me. :( Willow (talk) 22:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

That would be a neat idea. I wonder where one can find sources for all these things? They must exist ... Bach is one of the most studied and talked about classical composers. Actually I know of this fascinating book about the WTC (the intro is here). I get distracted easily too, especially when following a seemingly endless chain of wikilinks.

Re: Tactile diagrams, it would be a great thing for me to be able to take a picture off the web and have it transformed into a diagram that I can feel. Most of the tactile diagram solutions I know of require one to manually draw the diagram on special paper and then raise it by heating it up in a special machine. This process is tedious, so *one* tactile diagram costs four dollars as compared to a Braille page which is ten cents. The finger can discern less than the eye, so diagrams need to be simplified (and forget 3D diagrams altogether), which requires one to know which parts of the diagram are the most important. See New ways with diagrams (1988) for more information on this. Graham87 01:00, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I do see the danger of original research when we identify the themes and whatnot, but I think there are a fair number of scholarly resources on the fugues and their structures. Your source seems good, and I have access to some works of Donald Tovey, especially his analysis of the Art of the Fugue. I'm guessing we'll probably have to make the staff-drawings by hand, though. :(

Your notes about the difficulties of tactile diagrams sent my brain whirring. To me, there seem to be two things you'd like, maybe? On the one hand, a permanent printer would be nice, as you describe, to emboss images on paper, images that you'd like to keep a permanent record of. But it might also be nice to have temporary printer—like a CRT screen—for images that you'd like to study once, just to get their gist. Perhaps somebody could re-engineer a Braille printer to have a much denser set of pins that could be raised up or down independently, corresponding to pixels or subpixels? If the lattice were fine enough, you could even have different textures for lines, corresponding to the visual cue of different colors, and of course different line widths and different pin heights corresponding to the intensity of the color. Such a pin printer might be able to serve as both a temporary and permanent printer; you could run your hand over it directly in temporary mode, or you could squash down a piece of paper or aluminum foil or something to get a more permanent record. Anyway, sorry for going on about something you know much better, I was just gushing as usual. Willow (talk) 15:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah that reminds me, there are Braille embossers which can also print out tactile graphics like this beast. I've had a couple of chances to feel the output of these embossers and they feel like a finer version of Braille, but I haven't played with them extensively so I don't know what their limitations are. And there aare systems like the Nomad Mentor that provide spoken feedback when you touch a diagram, but that's a different thing entirely. I'd like to just get an SVG image, run it through a tactile diagram generation program and voila, I can feel the image on a special tactile screen. Perhaps it could replace colours with different types of lines so I could distinguish them. Maybe someone's thought of this already; I don't keep up with the bleeding edge of blindness technology. Graham87 16:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

That's really neat but $6K for a basic printer? Gasp! I can't even afford the $200 ones. :P Hopefully someone will work on bringing the prices down.

Your Nomad Mentor sparked an idea for an improvement in the Wikipedia software that might be helpful for geometry pictures. Each image could come with an optional verbal description of itself in the markup, a description that ordinarily wouldn't be rendered for readers, but which could be presented in place of the image if the user sets an option on their Preferences such as "Never download images". Nowadays, if a picture fails to download, you see its caption or its title; perhaps we could ask the software to use the description instead. I imagine the article's author would usually write the description so that they could point out the most important features; but if they failed to do so, SVG is a simple enough language for geometrical shapes that a computer program might be able to generate a description on the fly. But I don't keep up with blindness technology, either; perhaps that's being done already? If not, do you think it would be helpful? Willow (talk) 16:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Gah, that's nothing compared to the price of refreshable Braille displays ... 7,800 US dollars for a machine that can only display a single line of 80 characters! Luckily people are doing research to make less expensive braille displays, including refreshable Braille pages which sound neat. People are trying to make blindness technology less expensive, but it's all about supply and demand.

The longdesc attribute is designed for long verbal descriptions that won't fit in an image caption. Unfortunately I don't know of a way to incorporate that into Wikipedia's image tags. I think a good solution would be to write a long description in the image description page, and for the image caption, say "follow the image link for more details". That's what I've recommend for things like charts, graphs, and diagrams, which contain important information that can't be conveyed in an image caption. Graham87 00:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

A wee request

All that glitters is not cubic zirconia

Hey there, best friend! Long time no talkpage. Of course I can't just drop by without bearing gifts, so here's.. (scanning quickly through Commons before my next class storms in) .. umm.. a big chunk of gold!

Okay, down to business: thecurran asked me a while back to review United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories. I've made some comments on the talk page, but I don't know lists like some people (ahem) know lists. Since you're the Grand Sorceress Supreme of All Things Listesque, I was hoping you could take a gander and offer some thoughts.

I've been way out of my Wikipedia groove lately, due to the start of school. But I'm trying to get back into it. Emmeline Pankhurst is moving again. Woo! Scartol • Tok 18:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

It's so great to hear from you, like rain on a thirsty garden. :) I'm sending you supportive vibes for dealing with your students, can you feel them? It's a very important task, as I hope you know. The Talmud says that the dark world is preserved only by the promising sounds of students learning from teachers; at least that's how they interpret the opening line of Ecclesiastes: "Breath of breaths, everything is but breath." (hevel havalim, hakol hevel) You see, without shining teachers to throw their beams so far in this wicked world, we'd be all doomed. :)

I can't claim to be a sorceress, only a weaver, but I'll be happy to help your friend. But spare me tonight? I need to Answer the Call. ;) Willow (talk) 23:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I took three weeks – I'm in no position to be a taskmaster or timekeeper. (I always feel like a hypocrite when I chastise students for turning in late work.) Whenever you get to it will be great. As for teaching: I think it all depends on who's teaching and what they're teaching and how they're teaching. Unfortunately, I'm the wrong person and I don't know what I'm doing and I wouldn't know how to do it even if I did. =D Scartol • Tok 00:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Bag of hammers

Ahhaha. Urrrggh. I read (or tried to) Problem of Apollonius since I put up the most festive uprising in history today and I felt guilty I hadn't reviewed anything for a while. You know I love you more than my luggage, so I'd love to support or give suggestions for your FAC, but I was unable to read beyond the lead. I was weeping so hard I was unable to see the words. Humility does that to me. So... rah for the article. Wish I could read or understand it. Meh. --Moni3 (talk) 03:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the Commons has no pictures of hot buttered cinnamon raisin toast, but this luggage is just as good.

When I was five, I got on the wrong school bus by mistake. The other kids told me to stay on the bus, since it would eventually stop near my home; but as the bus was carrying me miles from my home, I got scared and rashly got off at the next stop. The bus left and it suddenly sank in that I had no idea where I was or how to get home, and I started crying. I felt pretty alone. :( But I walked around until I found a house that looked friendly and rang the bell. The mom who answered took me in, where cinnamon raisin bread was just about to come out of the oven. She had a boy and a girl my age who helped me stop crying; we three became friends while we waited for my dad, sharing hot buttered cinnamon raisin toast, which I will love as long as I live. :)

Moni, I love you more than toast and think the world of you. You have so many gifts to share with the world; and I can't selfishly ask for your time, time that you could — and should! — be using to craft some amazing article that you love and that will dazzle, then enlighten, the world. Humility is a great lesson for us all to practice, but really I think you're too hard on yourself; how could you review an article if you couldn't read it? Follow where your heart leads; and if someday your tears dry and if you find some extra time and if you want to, I'll try to give you a key to open a golden chest, where something beautiful and mysterious is kept. :) Sometimes you just have to be patient with yourself, to give yourself time to catch the rhythm of a new music. Like, I've spent most of my life around horses, and still when I try to draw a horse, it kind of looks like a mutant platypus on some bad steroids. ;) But I feel someday I'll draw a beautiful horse; life is long and we're in it together. :) affectionately, Willow (talk) 10:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's my review of Problem of Apollonius:

1. Wow, Willow is really smart about maths.
2. What do all those numbers and symbols mean?
3. Fractals are purty.

Anything I might add to the FAC would be meaningless. I'm sure the maths people will certify it as all nice and correct and deserving of FAness. Nice work, W. Scartol • Tok 14:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh God, is the article that bad? I wrote it dreaming that I was sharing something beautiful. I don't want people to say that I'm smart, I want to harrow their soul and make their minds' eyes start from their spheres in wonder and delight. :) Willow (talk) 19:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

No, no, no.. It's nothing to do with the article – as Moni said, I'm just not able to make it through the maths info. Like with Emmy; I tried, but it just doesn't click. I've a woeful lack of maths ability, period. Scartol • Tok 14:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I thought Fig 11 looked like a snowman. That is the sum total of commentary I am able to give the article. I'm sad. --Moni3 (talk) 14:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm really sorry, you two; of course you don't have to read the article or make yourself try to understand it. As I was trying to say, you both have so many good things to give the world, your time is much better spent on other articles. I don't want you to read it unless you'll really enjoy it. :) But please come back someday, won't you? Maybe my little daughter will become more charming as she gets a little older and more eloquent. :) And if you have any advice for her, I'm sure she'd appreciate that very much. :) Willow (talk) 16:34, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Please don't say nice things about me; it makes me feel lonely. :( You can say nice things about articles, but I really prefer practical suggestions for improvements. Thank you!

As per my family custom, so eloquently said by my brother: "We only fuck with you if we like you." I tend not to do that over the internet and other places where people don't really know my humor, but if you're willing to become part of the Moni family and forgo the nice things I think about you for our mocking the dandruff in your eyebrows, or your inability to get food from the fork to your mouth without it spilling over your shirt (it's genetic), or the good-natured howling from everyone in the room when you clearly fail at karaoke or Guitar Hero, I can do that. Once he demanded I explain my religious views to him, saying, "Not that I'm trying to piss all over your bullshit religion or anything..." I would never want you to feel lonely in a lonely place such as Wikipedia. Your articles astound me, and continue to raise the bar for the ones I write. How's that? --Moni3 (talk) 17:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I love your family already. ;) You're off to a good start, but I'd prefer something like, "Yo, girl, get your self-pitying butt out of its blue funk and over to Stonewall Riots, where you can do some good. I need your help, like, yesterday!" How's that? ;) Willow (talk) 17:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

PS. ...to which I can say, "Oh, spare me today, I just want to finish up what I was doing at hyperbola. I'll come by tomorrow for sure!" ;) Lame, I know, but I'm smiling now, Willow (talk) 17:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Catullus

Hi Willow -- Please forgive my belated reply; I've been busy off-wiki beginning a new job, so I had to put Catullus on hold for a bit. I've been on an unannounced wikibreak for the past couple of months and am just beginning to get back into editing again. I do have a list of mss. culled from a critical edition that I believe will be useful. I'm sorry to hear about Yolgnu; being away, I didn't know he had left. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Liz! I'm really happy to see you here again; I was just thinking of you yesterday. I know how it feels to be looking for a job, since I lost my main job and I'm looking as well. :( Every so often, I re-read the Fantine parts of Les Misérables to cheer myself up; no matter how bad it gets, it can always get worse. ;) (Honestly, I shouldn't joke about things like that.)

It's great that you've found some good free-use images for Catullus! :) Did you see that the main Catullus article was chosen to be included in the 0.7 hardcopy version of Wikipedia? The past few weeks I've been trying to get some old Greek geometry articles ready to strut and fret their hour upon the world's stage. ;) Unfortunately, after I'm done, they all too often resemble a "tale told by an idiot, signifying nothing". :P

I was sad to see Yolgnu retire, too. I left him a goodbye note, but I don't think he read it. :( I've never looked to see what set him off, or made him despair of Wikipedia, but it was unrelated to Catullus, I'm pretty sure.

Your letter comes at a good time, and cheered me up — thanks! :) I look forward to us working together again; say hi to A from me, Willow (talk) 14:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Name Change

indeed ,it will better suit the contents of the article now that its more diverse.plz MOVE(option) the page and not copy/paste the code so that the history of edits is saved.for some reason the move option is not available to me so if you can do it , it would be great. regards --Rabi Javed (talk) 17:18, 30 September 2008 (UTC)Rabi Javed

and wow your pretty good at maths

Thanks, Rabi — it was fun! I'm actually not that good at any math except simple geometry; but since I've been in love with circles forever, they kind of come naturally to me. I have to run now, I'm sorry, but I'll look in later to see how you and the article are doing. Welcome to Wikipedia, by the way! I hope you have lots of fun contributing here, and make lots of nice friends. :) Willow (talk) 17:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Sword of good faith

In connection with this, I hereby award you with the sword of good faith "for acts of courtesy and chivalry which inspire others to be better", which I regard as the highest award in the (now somewhat quiet!) knightly order. The only previous recipients have been Cronholm and Ling, both for showing great courtesy with an editor who would (or did) try my patience. Here again, I am among the "others". Many new editors are discouraged when their early contributions are AfD-ed, and I should have recognised this, and defended the article more forthrightly than I did. Geometry guy 20:15, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Friends dancing in a circle. :)

Circle of friends

Thank you, G-guy! Your gift is so nice, and I'm really honored to be numbered with Cronholm and Ling. :) You should also take credit for sticking up for the article and for Rabi; it was clear from what you wrote that your heart was in the right place. :)

But I'm not sure what I would do with a sword, except to beat it into a plowshare? I'd like to give us all a common gift, the Circle of Friends award, to be shared among, ummm, well, a circle of friends — or perhaps among people who are friends with circles? Ummm, the details remain to be worked out. ;) Those who love a garden, still their Eden keep.  :) Willow (talk) 22:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I like the circle of friends award very much! As for the Knightly Wikipedians, I'm sure I don't need to remind you how tongue in cheek the medieval references are! The sword of good faith opens hearts and minds (not literally!!). But "letter opener of good faith" or "potato peeler of good faith" just doesn't sound quite the same :) Geometry guy 22:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I like it very much, too. It was a stray serendipitous thought, but it seems to carry the right feelings; its heart is in the right place. :) I also understand about the sword. :) But perhaps a potato peeler might be just the thing for a Scullery Maid 2nd Class? It's very apt, too, because I'm about to harvest some purple potatoes from my garden to roast for dinner. :) Your friend always, hungry and full, Willow (talk) 23:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

1st Class, I'd say. I thought you might like the potato peeler! Geometry guy 08:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Best of luck...

For Problem of Apollonius. ;) —Sunday · (Testify!) 13:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

EP step one = all done!

As the most splendid seer of all things which begin with "Emm", I wish to invite you to have a look – official peer review-style or not – at the freshly-reconstructed Emmeline Pankhurst. It took me longer than expected (note to self: never start an FA drive around the start of the school year), but I'm pretty happy with how it's looking. Thanks in advance for any comments you care to offer! Scartol • Tok 19:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Omit maps

Please see my question about omit maps here. Talk:X-ray crystallography#Omit maps. Crystal whacker (talk) 23:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations on another FA!

Not just a GA: another toast to you!

FAC is thirsty work...

Congratulations Willow! Your 559 edits were not in vain: Apollonius is now a featured article! I proposed to celebrate, as I often do, by breaking as many MoS guidelines as possible — so lets have some text sandwiched by images, spaced em-dashes (with unnecessary parentheses). Choppy prose would be good too, especially if it also makes use of redundant words.

Please friends of Willow, come and join the party, bringing refreshment and good cheer! Geometry guy 19:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll come for the booze. If y'all start talking math, I'm gonna drink more and talk to that stuffed blowfish on the wall. --Moni3 (talk) 19:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry Moni: after all that work, math is the last thing we want to talk about! Nice blowfish, isn't it? Peanuts? Geometry guy 20:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Congratulations! Looking at that Fa made me despair for getting any article I'm working on up to that standard. I was busy patting myself on the back for giving such a thorough GA review only to find hundreds of changes later that it barely scratched the surface! You've done an amazing job. Now go work on Newton's theorem of revolving orbits.  :) Protonk (talk) 19:55, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Hear hear! Keep inspiring us! — A "secret" admirer, Wwheaton (talk) 20:06, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Apollonius would be proud! Jakob.scholbach (talk) 20:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
• Nice work! Randomblue (talk) 21:06, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's one!

Mmm, FA.

• Party at Willow's! I'll bring the chalk! Who has the blackboard? :) Awadewit (talk) 21:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Yay for Willow! Tim Vickers (talk) 21:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

    For some reason, blackboards made me think of this. I'd love to get copyright info on it, and use it somewhere! Geometry guy 21:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

    • I get more than enough chalk and blackboard time at school, but you can never have enough donuts. Huzzah for Willow! Scartol • Tok 22:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Awesome work Willow! A beautiful article that countless people will take something from for many years to come. Hmm, seems to be lots of fancy drinks here .. I might go sit with Ling.Nut ... Ben (talk) 09:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

	We worked on that one long enough I think! Time to kick back and enjoy! - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I guess I'm the Joe Six Pack, lowbrow member of this crowd. Well, it's the thought that counts, right? Congrats! Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 22:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Woo! Melchoir (talk) 22:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• It is on the main page! :) Awadewit (talk) 19:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• This is the first of your articles I recall running across. It is also the best article that I've seen.Trilobitealive (talk) 05:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Gadzooks! That's a terrific article. Many, many thanks. --JohnPomeranz (talk) 15:05, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Come back, Willow. We miss you. Scartol • Tok 16:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the same without Willow's sunshine. We miss you indeed, Willow, and hope you will return. Geometry guy 19:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

And now, for Fvasconcellos' traditional nonsectarian holiday greeting! ;)

Wherever you are, and whether you're celebrating something or not, there is always a reason to spread the holiday spirit! So, may you have a great day, and may all your wishes be fulfilled in 2009! Fvasconcellos (t·c) 14:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Is this a combination of my Christmas greeting from 2006 and my New Year's greeting from last year? Why, it most certainly is! Hey, if it ain't broke...