Petricek

What's the problem?

I don't understand, what's the issue, Petricek? See discussion, information on the Bleiburg massacre goes on the Bleiburg massacre article. There is not a shred of evidence linking Josip Broz to the Bleiburg massacre, even Dr. Tuđman stated that "he probably had no idea". It is not usually permitted by Wikipedia policy to include conspiracy theories without the backing of facts into encyclopedia articles.

P.S. I don't see why you're taking on such a hostile tone? Assume good faith. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

No, there was never a trial that organized it all, but there is a veritable ton of evidence linking Hitler to the holocaust personally. It is well known who initiated the "final solution", as the German Reich kept detailed documents. As I said, command responsibility still requires evidence, its certainly not as simple as you seem to think. By your logic, if a soldier shoots a civilian then the head-of-state would have to be tried for murder. Books and authors mention the Bleiburg massacre often because its a major historical event in this context, not because there's a proven connection to Broz. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:29, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I did read the article when you first linked it, I do not revert other Users lightly. I do have some knowledge in the matter, and I assure you command responsibility can't be stretched that far. As I stated before, think about it: by your logic, if a soldier shoots a civilian then the head-of-state would have to be tried for murder. Its not that simple. You can't just automatically blame the head-of-state for every transgression that the country's troops commit.

I am not underestimating Broz, as you seem to suggest. He was a devious schemer, but one that does not like to slaughter his opponents as a means of defeating them (again, per Tuđman). My main goal is to keep conspiracy theories and assumptions out of articles. You're saying, "he must have known!", I'm saying "prove it, then put it into an encyclopedia". People are "innocent until proven guilty", one might say. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Simple, he had no idea whatsoever that the massacre was to occur. Or, in other words, it is necessary to prove that he had reason to believe it might happen. That's the "evidence" I keep talking about. You can't just speculate and say "he must've known", you need evidence. I keep saying, its just not as simple as you seem to think. You can not simply come up and say "I think he must've had reason to know", and write it up in an encyclopedia. That's your own interpretation, completely without basis in any concrete evidence. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Hm, perhaps if you read your own post better you would see that I answered fully.

"Military commanders are imposed with individual responsibility for crimes committed by forces under their effective command and control if they: 'either knew or, owing to the circumstances at the time, should have known that the forces were committing or about to commit such crimes.' It uses the stricter "should have known" standard of mens rea, instead of 'had reason to know,' as defined by the ICTY Statute."

I responded that there is no evidence that he "should have known", and that that is what I've been saying all this time. I also stated that one cannot simply speculate as to whether or not that is so, such an assumption requires concrete evidence, and there is none. I am sorry, but random approximations of his cognitive abilities are not very noteworthy. I persist once more in assuring you that I am talking to you in good faith. I am not here to promote any agenda, but to preserve what's left of factual accuracy of Wikipedia's Balkans-related articles. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, you should inform yourself as to what constitutes a Wikipedia primary source. Speculations on the part of authors, without any foundation in primary sources, will be equally reverted. Primary sources here constitute concrete evidence. This is, in fact, why I'm talking to you about them, and not about published works. Unfortunately, there is no evidence linking Tito to the massacre. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

pozdrav Petricek. DIREKTOR is pretty well versed on the subject. If Tito was, in fact, involved in the Bleiburg Massacre, to have this information added to his article would have to be linked and verified by a reliable source.Nathraq (talk) 20:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Threats

Petricek, you should know I'm all for calm discussion and proper evaluation of arguments. I value my objectivity above all my traits. I am here to help improve this encyclopedia and to keep both right-wing and left-wing propaganda out of its Balkans articles (believe it or not). I also applaud your hard work on this subject. However, I am absolutely horrified and appalled at your recent threats and claims of media repercussions in case of anyone deleting your stuff. Wikipedia is very serious about any threats, open and concealed, and I was left with no choice but to report you for such behavior [1]. When I say "no choice", I really mean "no choice". I must report you for such acts or else I myself am at a serious disadvantage.
A few more things:

• I have nothing but respect for both your professional achievements (as they appear to be true), and your serious efforts and work in obtaining professional opinions on the subject. I acknowledge I am not on the same level of the social strata. However, these kind of threats are not something I'm willing to succumb to or even ignore. You should know that I am a person that does not change his opinions due to external pressure and non-arguments, and that I have received threats to my person before on this Wikipedia - for being an alleged "Croatian nationalist".
• If you do indeed believe me to be biased, I am also willing to consider this possibility. I am open to arguments and discussion, but only one completely devoid of attempts at exerting external pressure.
• User:AP1929 (i.e. "User:Ante Pavelić 1929" - the year of the formation of the Ustaše movement) is an extremist that professed open adoration for Ante Pavelić (again and again), respect for the Ustaše, holocaust denial, and has implied that the NDH is the predecessor of modern Croatia. He also fervently believes the Ustaše were "not a fascist movement". "Bravo"??

Regards, --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me? Holocaust denial ? NDH predecessor of modern Croatia ? You are a prava babetina, majke mi. AP1929 (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

You've been mentioned at WP:ANI

Hello, Petricek. Your comment at Talk:Josip Broz Tito#Josip Broz Tito and Bleiburg massacre is being discussed at WP:ANI#Threats and Cavassing. You may join the discussion and give your own response there. EdJohnston (talk) 13:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I notified him in the post above and provided a link... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:09, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Oops, I missed seeing that. Now he's extremely-well notified. EdJohnston (talk) 16:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

If you are interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals/NDH I figured users like DIREKTOR can be part of, and expand a wikiproject "yugoslavia" - I thought I'd put together this WikiProject.AP1929 (talk) 07:49, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of User:Petricek

A tag has been placed on User:Petricek requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section U5 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to consist of writings, information, discussions, and/or activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals. Please note that Wikipedia is not a free Web hosting service. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time.

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