User talk:Panderoona/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Brothertoft

Hi, thanks for your work on the Brothertoft article, which is much appreciated. Please do not become dis-spirited by the changes I have made - they are necessary and hopefully you will learn from them. Feel free to contact me on my talk page (or write a note here - I'll see it) if you have any queries. I'm more than happy to help you out and to explain what goes on. Welcome to Wikipedia! - Sitush (talk) 10:17, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Got your note :

“ Hi thanks for yr message regarding the Brothertoft page. I am still learning all this stuff and finding it quite difficult to a) find my way around and b) write within the limits of the rules :S its pretty tough. Im taking a break for a few as yes it is a bit exasperating, but I do appreciate your reasoning. Panderoona (talk) 10:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC) ”

Sorry if you are finding it exasperating, but stick with it. Honestly, it gets easier as you go along. Also, one of the principle mainstays of Wikipedia is to be bold. So edit away! Some of what you add may be removed or altered, but the chances of a 100% failure rate are minimal (and you certainly haven't got anywhere near that!). I think that right now you might benefit from reading about reliable sources. This is a complicated area for newcomers but is fundamental to how the project is supposed to work. You recently added some citations using genealogical websites but these are, generally speaking, unreliable because they are not peer reviewed, not mainstream and are often based on suppositions. Worse, they often propagate errors that the site originator has picked up from other such websites: that's how a myth becomes a truth, a whisper becomes a shout. Take my edits in a positive way and you must challenge anything that you disagree with. I have added your talk page to my watchlist, so I'll see anything that you add here & can respond. - Sitush (talk) 10:35, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi again, Ive been looking around some other pages in the hope of working out some of where Im going wrong. Ive noticed that some things seem to go unchallenged, such as say: birth/death dates etc for instance Arthur Lucan of Sibseys page. Now I know that its accurate as Ive seen a copy of the birth certificate, but how would Wiki know for sure? Its SO confusing. I accept that the website regarding Frederick Curtois might not be considered reliable as it is someone from that family researching it. I know Frederick Curtois was indeed at Brothertoft Hall as Ive seen him on the census, and similarly I have seen on census Thomas Gee, Charles James Small, Henry Peart and Ebeneezer Larrington. However that all comes under "original research" I guess, and its not possible to link directly to the Census data. There is a ref to some of these peoples in Kellys Directories are they considered a reliable source?

With regard to Ann Leman (daughter of Naunton Thomas Orgill Leman of Brampton Hall in Suffolk) this family are documented in historical peerages and some of them also in websites about Brampton. Surely those would be considered reliable sources? Surely the Planagenet Roll of the Blood Royal a published work, would be considered reliable? Thomas Gee and Ann (Leman) have a large grave in the churchyard and that grave states very clearly Ann was the daughter of Naunton Thomas Orgill Leman of Brampton Hall in Suffolk. Its so frustrating because personally I would like more to be known about the parish, but it seems a lot of the work I have done would be better put on a personal webpage rather than Wiki which seems such a shame as I found out about the history of the parish by looking around online? (Not all of it anything from this century is certainly verifable through my own knowledge as my father was born there and my grandfather lived there until 1980 and I went there many times.)

There is a oft-quoted article about the issue of other stuff existing on Wikipedia. Basically, just because someone else has done it on another article doesn't make it right. What is right is following the policies. Articles about India, the latest craze in hip-hop music etc seem to me to be particularly prone to poor standards, but that doesn't justify the same poor standards being applied elsewhere.

Birth certificates fall under the issue of being primary sources and thus are disallowed. But if you can, say, find a reliable book that uses the birth date then it is ok ... even if the author of that book got the info from the birth certificate! This is one of those "daft" situations and it has been said that Wikipedia does not even care about the truth, merely about whether something is verifiable using reliable sources. Similarly, census date presents problems: not only is it arguably a primary source, but it is also a fact that the thing is unreliable - people mis-spelled their own names, were vague about birth dates, places of birth, occupations etc. You would have to provide a lot of original research to verify the reliability of any piece of census data, so it is best to avoid.

I've used directories such as Kelly's without any argument, including at Isaac Perrins and Churchill Machine Tool Company. The latter has been granted Good Article status, and the Perrins one probably will be soon.

The gravestone is an interesting one. I think that if you mentioned the wording on the stone in the article, and sourced it to the stone, then that would be fine. Someone who wants to verify it can always make the journey to the graveyard. The way you phrase it might have to be considered, but my guess is that it would be ok as a source. There is actually a noticeboard where odd issues such as this can be discussed. Since WP works on consensus, if you got a consensus that it is ok there then it would be difficult to challenge it being in the article. A photo would be a bonus, but it is not a requirement: sources do not have to be online, merely specified in a way that would enable a reader to locate them if they so chose.

As for Brampton, well, it depends on the website. The British History Online site is ok, a page by a local council is usually ok, a page by someone unknown is not ok. However, you also have an additional issue here, which is that the article may lose focus if you start drifting down all of these alleyways. This is where is gets fascinating because you do a lot of work on one article and realise that, hey, there are other articles which either need editing to tie in or actually need creating. I did a quick search on Brampton Hall and was surprised to see that there is no WP article for it - so maybe you should start one for that also, and then tie Brothertoft one in with it! - Sitush (talk) 14:52, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Its interesting what you say as I personally know Eric Winstones daughter and she can confirm that the birthdate given for him on Wiki and just about everywhere else on the web is actually wrong. ;) Its strange, I dont think you dont care about truth or facts, I do think that the rules perhaps make it almost impossible to write an article. I wouldnt presume to write an article on something I dont know anything about (although obviously other people do!) and for that reason I think I probably wouldnt be the best person to write about Brampton Hall, the only work I did on it being the connection to Ann Leman. The Orgill Lemans are described in a fair number of places. Anyway - I DO happen to have a photograph of the gravestone, but Im confused enough already and not sure Id be capable of uploading it right? I can't even work out how to do references properly! The image of the stone is actually centred apon the inscription - with the intention of it being readable on the photo (considering it was inscribed in the 1870s and is located under a nice large group of trees) so all you can see is the top of the slab rather than the whole stone. Perhaps I should simply give up?

Firstly, do not give up. The Perrins article I referred to above was pretty much written from scratch in 24 hours from me first reading his name in a single sentence of an academic journal (Journal of Economic History) while researching something completely different. That one sentence piqued my interest, although I have no interest at all in boxing etc. It can be done! Although you are also quite right that some people clearly do not know what they're talking about! I have the benefit of a couple of Cambridge history degrees & am steeped in the academic "rigour" of research and proof, which is more than most people are and comes with its own burdens.

I'll take a look at the Winstone issue. We cannot take someone's word for it (not even their own, let alone a relative) because it is not verifiable, eg: what happens when the source of the verification dies? However, there probably is something suitable somewhere. I must agree with you about photos: they're a bit of a palaver to get on here and I've only done a few myself. However, we can sort this one out between us also, if you are game. As for references, well, you've got the right idea and you'll soon pick it up. If you go to User:Sitush (my user page) you'll find a crib sheet of the templates I use for references - just copy and fill in the blanks <g>

Again, please don't give up or become daunted. The project is full of helpful people (as well as a fair few idiots, it must be said). I'm going to drop a note with a lady who came on board a couple of months ago, started a new article, hit a few issues and came close to throwing the towel in. She is a lovely lady and is now going great guns and really enjoying it. She may have the confidence now to boost your own position as it strikes me that you are now where she was then. She is in North America but hopefully she'll drop in on this page before too long. - Sitush (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice and help. I am primarily a family historian but have a deep love of Lincolnshire and especially Brothertoft, even though I actually live in Surrey. Most family historians have a tendency to make it up as they go along, and Ive seen that very often, but like you I like to find something concrete with which to back things up. Im well aware of mistakes made by vicars in parish registers let alone census enumerators. Ages can be out by as much as ten years, people can be hiding under the most extraordinary approximation of name, and so on and so forth, but you can (suprisingly) usually identify them if you try hard enough. I follow up every clue where/when wives/kids were born and the names and etc and eventually youre pretty sure you got the right person!. Im certainly game to get that photo up if you think its worth it. I8 may well give up in frustration now, as is my way, but Im also pretty sure I will come back and try again because that is also my way. I never give up completely ;)

I'll sit back for a few hours while you and Carole swap tea and biscuits <g> No, seriously, let's see what advice Carole can give you because she is much nearer to your current situation than I am. I'll keep an eye on what is going on, dig around on Winstone and then we'll sort out the photo issue. Is that ok with you? - Sitush (talk) 16:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Sure thats great, thanks Sitush - oh and Eric Winstone was born 1st January 1913 - NOT 1915. Ive just gone and rechecked the birth Indexes as well as taking his daughters word. Look forward to talking again. :)

Hello

I hear that you're somewhat new and have a lot to offer, so I thought I'd step by to see if there's anyway I can be of assistance. While it can be very rewarding and fun, learning the ropes can also be a bit daunting at times. I've been writing here for a few months and anything I can share to help make someone else's road a little easier, I am very happy to do. Let me know.--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:40, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, how fun, I just read that you also are a family historian - something I've enjoyed as a hobby for years. Like you, I've had to learn over the years to be careful about the quality of information. Look forward to chatting some time!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:42, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Hello Carole. Yes Im finding it all a bit frustrating at the moment. There is absolutely MASSES of info that I have on this particular parish which I never included because I can't really cite references and so on and so forth, and to do so would be to make it sound far more important a place than it actually is, so keeping it fairly concise was one of my aims. However I really am more than a bit lost. I can't work out how to do references and sources properly its the HTML tags I mean, and the idea of uploading a photo is way beyond me at the moment and I have many photos of Lincolnshire parishes. One reason I found this little bit of historical record so interesting is that its just one small place but its history is echoed across Britain by the simple fact that a relatively small number of landowners held such vast tracts of land. But anyway, any pointers advice help gratefully received :) Ann

Hi Ann, You've got the start of an interesting article. Some initial thoughts are: 1) add citations at the sentence or group of related sentence level. I got really confused about how to do the proper formatting but was shown the following templates that I use now all the time. I just copy and past in the template and then fill in whatever information I can find. If there's more than one "author" I use "st1= |first1= |last2= |first2="

More Cite Book Info <ref name=>{{cite book | title= | author= | publisher= | location= | year= | page=| isbn= | url= }}</ref>

More Cite Web Info <ref name=>{{cite web |url= |title= |author= |year= |work= |publisher= |accessdate=April 12, 2011}}</ref>

More Cite Journal Info <ref name=>{{cite journal |last1= |first1= |last2= |first2= |year= |title= |journal= |volume= |issue= |pages= |publisher= |doi= |url= |accessdate= }}</ref>

The hardest part for me was getting started on this, so if you give me info for a particular reference, I'll help get it formatted correctly.

2) you may want to add sections to help with readability (sp??). The headings are in outline form starting with two equal signs, such as ==History== or ==Church==. If you want to have subheadings, you just add another = sign, for example ===Manor House===.

You're struggling with something else that was hard for me in the beginning, too: What to include in the article? It's especially a problem for me because I think just about anything has an interesting underlying story. Where I've gotten to is: what would be interesting information that someone from the town might think is noteworthy? What might someone who was going to go to the town find interesting? And the things that don't further the story, I TRY to leave out. I hope some of this helps as a starter. I was very frustrated in the beginning, so I understand what you're going through and I'm here to help.--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Oops, the reference information got treated as if it was a reference (and I forget what to put around it to prevent that). If you go into edit mode, you'll see the templates for book, web and journal.

We just can't get the same quality of staff nowadays <sigh> <g> You need to wrap it between nowiki and /nowiki, Carole. Done it for you.- Sitush (talk) 16:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Carole, its all helping. Especially the idea of breaking it down into Church/Manor House etc that would be a good idea I think. To be honest there isnt much there but farms and farmhouses these days, but the Church is of obvious interest, and the Georgian Hall is of interest as well and is a grade II listed building (perhaps I should add that!). I have screeds on the people who lived there thanks to censuses wills and etc but that wouldnt really be of interest to the general public, although I thought the Halls occupants might be? perhaps not, especially since I can't prove them. This is the bit I am finding tricky..... I think all the references I made could be defined as probably done badly!!! ;) Thanks Ann

Grade listing should go in. Does Pevsner say anything about these buldings? - Sitush (talk) 16:26, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

If you use Google Books then I think that you may be surprised how many of the Hall's residents you may be able to include. Search for their name AND the name of the hall - could strike gold. Sometimes we have to "play the system" in this way. There is also www.archive.org and www.hathitrust.org, for a vast array of digitised books. And www.historicaldirectories.something-i-forget (.co.uk or .org, I think) - Sitush (talk) 16:30, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Good ideas Sitush - I have added the headers now Im not liking the way Its written LOL Im going round in circles hahaha. The Hall is just called The Hall which is a bit annoying. But sure Ill try :)

WP is timeless, so going back to revise your writings (or anyone else's) is encouraged. If the Hall really was always called The Hall then I'd suggest trying "Brothertoft Hall" - older books etc probably did use a more specific name for it, even if it wasn't the official name. See, even books get it wrong - it is not a prerogative of WP! BTW, most of the web content for Winstone's birth date seems actually to have originated here, so we're going round in circles. I've added a note to the article but we really need an obituary or something - not found one yet but The Times etc will doubtless have published one. - Sitush (talk) 16:57, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

From what Ive been able to ascertain the Hall as it is today was built on the site of the original Manor House Farm, by Major Cartwright, and then extended by Thomas Gee in the 1850s (as per the Grade II Listing site) Its only since Cartwright it became known as The Hall. You made a mistake pointing out sites like Hathitrust now Im lost uncovering new info and totally distracted!! LOL. With regard to Winstone - there is a site called the Other Side and it has his true dates on it, as its something to do with his daughter Erika (which is the other daughter to the one I know). http://www.erikawinstone.net/theotherside/artists/ericwinstone/

Ha ha. I've doubled the size of Winstone's article, including a fix for his d.o.b based on a news item (poor, but will suffice for now). I doubt that his fmaily will appreciate my addition but WP is not censored, so I'm afraid it is just tough. - Sitush (talk) 17:34, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

probably not, but they all know what happened. You havent named names and Im sure those still living will appreciate that :). Ive also found out more about the Hall. References have been pretty scarce as to exactly when it was built although we know Cartwright bought the land in 1788 and presumably began working on it straight away. In fact, thanks to his online correspondence at Hathitrust Ive found it was called Brothertoft Farm by him. It was later during Thomas Gees time it became known as the Hall. Now Im seeing your logic in making me back it all up with facts. Its helping me too! PS is there a way I can contact you privately?

Go to User:Sitush and on the left hand side, in the menu, there is an "Email this user" option. Use that. Not a good idea to spray email addresses around in talk pages etc. As for your findings: great news. I feel certain that they are worthy of inclusion. - Sitush (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree absolutely. The problem is and I dont have a clue why it might be, but the email this user thing isnt showing here. Perhaps you could do the reverse if my email is showing for you?

Yours is not showing, probably because you did not supply an email address. Mine is definitely there (Carole is one of several who have used it recently). Scroll down the page a bit - it is a normal link (NOT a box which you edit) under the Toolbox subheading in the blue menu. If you still can't find it then there must be some sort of policy about it being blocked to new editors, and if this is the case then it'll appear after 4 days and 10 edits (I think you've already exceeded the edit count). - Sitush (talk) 18:42, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Youre probably right, Ive rechecked and nowt showing. Never mind in time Ill be able to do that so thats fine.

Hello, Panderoona. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

My goodness while I've been away the two of you have covered a lot of ground!!! Thanks,Sitush for fixing the reference info - yep, help isn't what it used to be!! ;) I'm going ahead and making tweaks to the reference info and will check back with you with some tips about how I got the info - and why/how I trimmed the url info. More to come...--CaroleHenson (talk)

ARGH Ive done something wrong can u take a quick look please!!

Couple of Thoughts

I hope that you stay interested in working articles because I heard a passion in your words - about what drove you to write the story to begin with! It sounds like you uncovered a lot of information and weren't sure what to include. Based on your original interest, I wonder if information about how the important lordships of Fenland were monastic might be interesting to include. And, maybe information about the Fenland region (marshland drained for very high quality agricultural soil) (Happened upon http://www.jstor.org/pss/1151439)

A couple of other things:

1. References can seem like a pain, but it's now like rolling out of bed for me. I just copy in the template for the type of information (web, book, journal) and just fill in the blanks. It was a pain in the beginning, but having a system makes it much easier. You'll find that when you read other's articles or return to yours having that information displayed helps you understand the nature of the information: when was it written? what might that mean? who was it written by? where?

2. I reformatted a couple of WP links for you. It's fun to find out that you can have the display name suit the information you'd like to display in the article. For instance an article named "John Doe" who had the title "Sir" can be displayed by: [[John Doe|Sir John Doe]]

3. Do you know how to see edits made by someone - by going to "View History" and comparing an early verion to the most recent (or another version)? I learn a lot by seeing what changes editors make to the article.

I'll be happy to explain why I trimmed the url another time, this might be enough for now. Very best of luck, hope you stay around!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

... and a point about JSTOR etc. There are various websites around which are authorised agents for academic journals. Often you can see an abstract of an article from such a journal but nothing more without payment. One way round this is to ask around other people: there are people using Wikipedia who have full access to the content of these sites because they work/study at universities etc with a subscription to them. Such people will often email the relevant article to you if you ask politely (no charge, obviously, because it is for the greater good of the entire WP project). In fact, there is an entire "article" called Resource Exchange devoted to just this facility. This was how I got going on Isaac Perrins: I'd asked for a JSTOR article about something completely different ("the origins of engineering in Lancashire", if you must know), but as it turned out we've ended up with a WP article about a prizefighter also ... and to finish that meant asking someone for an article from Wiley Online, which is similar to JSTOR! Another example was when Carole was working on some Welsh history stuff: I had access to the Oxford Dict of National Biography & was able to send her some articles that she couldn't easily access. - Sitush (talk) 23:12, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks guys n girls :) Im learning slowly!! That info about Jstor is very interesting also and could prove useful in the future. Another Question Im afraid - now Ive linked to Kellys Directory 1919 on Brothertoft which states several things of interest such as Thomas Gee paid for the rebuilding of the church started the school and etc and the fact that Ebeneezer Larrington was in occupancy of the Hall in 1919 - so can I and if so how can I, reference one work (this particular directory) for several different parts of an article on here? oh and the bit about the oldest part of the graveyard being taken up to make a car park, I have no source for that, its just a fact I happen to know. Its difficult to explain but the church is in the middle of fields, there is no road to it. My grandparents are buried there, when I was young we could access the church by the park entrance on foot, and by car via the road leading to the Hall - a track leading around the back of the property and on to the back of the churchyard. After the owner, Horace Robinson died in 1986, his son changed the access to through the park only, cutting off access behind his property which I can't really blame him for. Point is it was then that they took up the gravestones to make a carpark on the north side. Personally I think its relevant because it changed the churchyard, and explains why there are stones lined along the path. Does it have to go?? Many thanks Ann

If the information is all grouped together, you can create one reference, and use it multiple times by: 1) naming it with a ref name <ref name="author">{{cite... - and 2) then the second, third, etc. times use just the ref name with a slash: <ref name="author"/>. Is that what you meant? --CaroleHenson (talk) 02:30, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Yep, I messed up my nowiki's again!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 02:30, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

yea thats what I meant. Hummm I am so dumb when it comes to this html tagging... Still havent got it. where do I put <ref name="author" etc?

Trust me, I feel your pain. It was probably the hardest thing for me to figure out, too. If you go back up to the info about cite web, cite book, that should help. You could also go to my article I'm working on right now Paintings of Children (van Gogh) and look for the examples where there are multiple references (a, b) next to the reference number and go into edit mode and then do a find on "<ref". Then, you'll see multiple use of the same references.--CaroleHenson (talk) 03:12, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Now why didnt I think of that? Thanks Carole :)

Sure! Hope it helps! If you have questions or want me to take a look at anything let me know. It looks like you've incorporated more info from Kelly into your article. Good job! Amazing for a first day!!! Keep up the great work!--CaroleHenson (talk) 03:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Argh Carole Ive done something wrong with the tags!! can you take a look for me please? thanks for your support I certainly wouldnt still be here without you and sitush :)

Sure, heading over!--CaroleHenson (talk) 04:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Gravestones

You mention above about the inability to cite the relocation of gravestones. I would be surprised if the story did not feature in a local newspaper at that time, or even in a parish magazine etc. For a point such as this there really is a need for a citation but it is not necessary that you provide it. One of the "hidden" points of maintenance tags such as this is that the attention of other people is drawn to it, one of whom - somewhere, sometime - will be able to resolve the problem. This is NOT an excuse for sloppy writing, but in an instance such as this where a site visit would show the point to be true I feel that the statement should remain, along with the request for a citation. - Sitush (talk) 10:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Sitush. I think Ive managed to resolve most of the issues in the article (blood sweat and tears haha) the only things I havent worked out is a) how to tag multiple things to one reference (I tried and failed dismally, and Carole bless her corrected it for me. I still can't quite see where I went wrong.) And then there is the photograph issue..... But overall, Im really pleased with the result and glad I stuck it out :)

If you give a reference a name as Carole showed above then when you next need to use the same page etc of that reference you can just type in the short version. You'll get the hang of it eventually, esp. if you look at how others have done it. There is an alternative system for when you use a heap of pages from one source, but let's walk before we run.

I'll go over the article later. You'll most likely find that I rip into it a bit but please do not take offence: treat it as constructive criticism. One thing that would help is if you use the "edit summary" box. When you edit something you will see a small box near to the "Save" button. Type a summary of what you have done in that and it shows up in the history for the article. It makes life easier for everyone if you do this, although as a new user you won't appreciate just how useful the facility can be. You can see the difference if you compare your edits to those of myself and Carole in the history page. We all forget to do this from time to time, and there have been proposals that would mean you couldn't save the thing unless you did fill out the summary. However, not doing it at all is likely to cause problems as you'll come across people who really do get annoyed about it. - Sitush (talk) 11:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Okeydokey Ill bear that in mind. Thanks again :)

When I tried to explain the edit for the secondary reference, the gravestone section disappeared from view. If you go, though, to "View History" - my comments show the change. You just had an extra ref. Believe it or not, you've learned a lot in the last 2 days. Keep up the great work!--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:36, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

yeah I saw it all went a bit wonky. Ill still keep trying dont worry :) It certainly seemed like a mountain to climb this time yesterday and here I am poncing about adding little citations to other Lincolnshire pages. :) Thanks again for all your help - and I wont be afraid to holler if I need you!

Your recent edits

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four halfwidth tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 17:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh stick it up yr bum. Your only a bot anyway. I can't live by such constraints and you dont want to know anyway. and you know what? if someone who cared published it elsewhere youd be right on the button and nick it. Lifes far too short already and I dont want to know. I tried. you busted me Im not for you, Im a free spirit. Bye. Oh dont forget the tag derr Panderoona 22:38, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh my, if you're still around I feel sorry that I haven't been in touch more. I got a sense that you were working around with information for your story and sorting through the information while getting the hang of things, and you'd reach out as you said if you needed anything. I just came back to touch base and saw your note. You have the right spirit, you have the right intention and passion -- it may be that this isn't the right place for you -- but if there's anyway to help make it better let me know. I became very frustrated on several occassions, too, so I know what that's like in the beginning. That sign bot thing drove me crazy, too, in the beginning! Can I help in any way?--CaroleHenson (talk) 23:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it has to be that pesky Sinebot because only minutes before Panderoona was enthusing about an extra owner I'd found for the property at Brothertoft & looking to do some digging into it. These bots can be a nuisance at times: the point is valid but the way that they deluge newbies is off-putting. I've sent her an email. - Sitush (talk) 23:58, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, good! That was nice of you!--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:03, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Images good to go

Both BrothertoftChurch HallandPark.jpg (357KB) and HedgehogBridgeSchool.jpg (101KB) are loaded now. I used the Wikipedia Common upload wizard. You were successful in loading the one of the school - it was already there. How fun now to add these to your article!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Carole now all I gotta do is work out how to put them on ;) thanks again. :) Panderoona 19:57, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Now thats wierd - Hedgehog Bridge School went straight in - looks great. I did same for Brothertoft image and its not showing. Can you take a look for me please? sorry to be a pain! Panderoona 20:05, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Let me play around with it. I tried removing everything by the filename and it's still not working. I'll be back!--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Given yesterdays heartrending wierdness in uploading the Hedgehog Bridge pic which subsequently disappeared Im wondering if its simply a backlog of published info on Wikimedia thats to blame for it not showing? I am not experienced enough here to know if thats what its down to but it does make me wonder since the Hedgehog Bridge pic was unavailable yesterday and yet shows up today? Perhaps its something to do with the fact that its an original image? I dont know. Thanks for your help Carole its much appreciated - once this image is visible I fully intend to suprise my family with far more info than they ever imagined on this place :)

Hi no, the answer is far simpler: user error. I didn't complete all the info for the file - and while I thought it was saved, it really wasn't. So, you're good to go now. Sorry about that - but a good learning experience for me!!! Hang in there, you are doing a good job, you have the right intention. Believe it or not, it will get MUCH better.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

One other thing: I know I was overwhelmed the first time I saw a lot of citations needed messages. Want to divide and conquer on that? One note, too, if it's taking me too long to find citations for something, I ask myself how much does the article need the info?--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

My great fear was that without verification from an online resource the info would simply go west (be deleted). However Ive come today to realise thats not necessarily so - many articles out there are wanting of verifiable facts and a challenge doesnt necessarily mean immediate deletion. I just wish certain bits of info were more readily accessible so they can be verified and considered encyclopediac. Hard at best. At worst you rip your hair out and cry and I have. But the fact is what I want is to add to the info I had, and my goal now is to add not just to this webpage but to others as so many are wanting and its only right they get just recognition - tough but whilst I am artistic temperament and throw my toys spectacular Im not a quitter either. I want the info out there.

Yes, there's some that may not be easily found, but I agree shouldn't be deleted - like the passing ownership of the lands. Here in the states there are books that log deed transactions, etc. Is there something like that there? Otherwise, sometimes, if I 1) leave it and come back later different pathways will get me to the right info or 2) information from unreliable sources may offer clues to a source that is verifiable, if you know what I mean.

Regarding the stones to make a pathway, though, I found something in another encyclopedia - but it's not a source we can reference. Is that needed?

I did find some info about the town at http://books.google.com/books?id=tQqV7kdX1Y0C&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=Brothertoft+Church+of+St.+Gilbert&source=bl&ots=S3_YPN_T6V&sig=rsECpLEQEYTzpcLWDqV6HtzhKWY&hl=en&ei=kK-oTYOTLurniALvn6mXDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=Brothertoft%20Church%20of%20St.%20Gilbert&f=false--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:00, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

This is the problem, finding a source we CAN reference. I know for a fact cos I wandered the churchyard in search of the oldest stones with my brother as a kid, and they was located to the north of the churchyard which I also know for a fact was turned into a car-park in the late 1980s. See its complicated but because the church was accessible only by field, you could back then take a car and drive behind Brothertoft Hall to the churchyard via a track - Ive done it. Then when Horace Robinson died in 1986 his son changed everything and there was no longer access by vehicle. On foot we could always walk though the "park" to the church via the entrance next to the gatehouse/parish hall (originally the school built in 1881). Horaces son refused to allow people to go behind his home to access the churchyard and using gravel made a track through the park to the church. As this accessed directly the north side (oldest part) of the churchyard, a carpark was put on site, and the stones taken up and lined along the path to the next oldest stones. Brothertoft churchyard is actually comprised of: oldest section earlist I saw abt 1761 - now a carpark, North of the church: Next oldest section amongst trees including Thomas Gee grave - West of church, newest section which includes my grt grandparents and grandparents - to the west of the intial westward (amongst the trees) site. Its almost full now.

I'm trying to figure out how I can help. I sense and understand your frustration about not being able to cite something you know to be a fact. There's a reason for high goals regarding content, so that the site becomes one that people can rely on the information - otherwise it's a slippery slope. I did find one other reference, which I think we can use: [Burke Gen--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:19, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh Im on a roll. Figured out the easiest way to do it is to collate the info in notepad add all refs coordinates etc and then cut/paste the whole thing into Wikipedia. Cuts out all that editing onsite. Have created two small village pages for Swaby and Strubby and am really pleased with the results! As for including info such as Thomas Gees grave - well perhaps including the photo on Geograph and then linking to that would be proof enough? What do you think :)

Boy are you ever on a roll! I'm about to bed down for the night, but I'll make a couple more minor edits before I go. Great job!!! Yes, writing it off-line and then copying it in later sounds like a great way to go!--CaroleHenson (talk) 07:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, finished some minor edits and formatting, plus added a category for one of the towns. I addded a question on the talk page of the article related to Saint Oswald.

Regarding the info about Thomas Gee, can you check in with Sitush about that one? Or, I can read back up on the earlier comments and article in the morning. Have a good day!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 07:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help and advice :) yes Ill ask Sitush :) and have a good one yourself x Panderoona 07:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm back

Sorry, went to hospital and was kept in overnight due to a small heart attack that had happened before I got there. Bollocking about diet was noted and then discarded as they seem to be under the impression that as a single bloke I must live on takeaways/fast food etc and it is so far from the truth as to be ridiculous. I'll take some info to the next consult that proves my family has a history of dodgy cholesterol readings that is entirely due to metabolisation - and we do not have a history of heart problems: my own problems are down to a mitral valve murmur from birth (yet another of the side-effects of rubella during pregnancy).

I'll probably not do much on the article for the rest of today but am glad to see Panderoona back in the saddle. As far as Gee's gravestone goes, why not upload it to Wiki or (better) Wiki Commons. If it is your photo then there is nothing to stop you doing this. Going through Geograph just adds another layer of complexity because you then have to link to a picture that is "offsite" & the rules about this can be a little awkward sometimes unless you put them in Ext Links (which is the wrong place for a cite).

I note that you have managed to get some images up there without my help, which is great. But my help is available if you need it. - Sitush (talk) 11:46, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Please dont apologise Sitush - I hear you with the docs moaning - as a single lady I get exactly the same kind of talks - and I smoke (evil!) Just hope you are on the mend - best wishes. Ive managed to get the hang of Wiki Commons at last so uploading wont be a problem. The "problem" is that in an effort to get something halfway readable out of the inscription its a really ugly picture that doesnt show much of the rest of the stone. Ah well. The only thing I still can't do is that multi-linking to one source in the citation thingy. But I am happy to go with the flow on that one for the moment - at least the information is up there, and if someone wants to come along and group them (thanks Carole I know you did) I can only be happy and greatful :) Panderoona 11:55, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Email me that particular photo. Let's see if I can improve it (no promises, but many hands etc). The re-using of refs will come to you in time: just keep looking at how other people do it and eventually it will just click. At that point you will probably slap your own forehead, so have paracetamol near to PC. - Sitush (talk) 12:33, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Image is online already Im a fast worker <g>

(img removed from Panderoona's cmt to prevent swamping of the page - I've grabbed it, though - Sitush (talk) 12:50, 16 April 2011 (UTC))

Forget the paracetamol and pass the vodka lol. Panderoona 12:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Grabbed it. Removed it from here as per my note above. (Not a problem, BTW). - Sitush (talk) 12:50, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Aye, it did come up super-large on here. Ive added it to the Brothertoft page for now, and it does come up a better size when you click the thumbnail image (not so pixelated). If you can improve on it feel free to replace :) thanks again Sitush Panderoona 12:57, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Sitush, I hope you're on the mend! Take care!

Panderoon, I see you've been busy with some more articles, great work! I'll take a look them and see if there's any needed editing. Anything else that could be helpful? --CaroleHenson (talk) 15:15, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Please do Carole - I couldnt believe how many villages and hamlets had like one line entry with no citations so I got a bit busy ;) its all good practice and because they are short its keeping the html tags in my head. Im fine at the moment thank you - Ive been enjoying the experience and looking on other sites gave me more ideas about tags and such to include such as the converting miles to km one. Still can't work out that multiple tagging thing tho. :) Panderoona 15:21, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Great, good work! And, it's got to be fun having added the images to stories, too. It sure helps make one sense what the town or village might be like.

Two things about references:

1) the second reference for Eastville looks like a short reference used with a bibliography. There's not enough information there to find the reference (I tried goggling Connoly and 2004 but didn't find a readily clear book name and then gave up).

2) when you use the Kelly directory reference, it would be great if you could add the page number. For instance, I went to look at Stubby and there were 30 hits - but none that readily went directly to the town info (just one word in a list of places).

I sense that it's now more fun for you and that's really great.--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Oops, I need to remember to added the links to more information. Here's information about using references - and how short references are used with one full citation. Wikipedia:Citing sources--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

There is also a neat trick if you are using Kelly's from www.historicaldirectories.org. You should still use the page number (and do so every time you are ref'ing a book or newspaper) but you may have noticed that the URL thing doesn't work for stuff on historicaldirectories because the site designers have not been too clever (in fact, they have been silly & I'm in talks with them about it, having offered suggestions - including the correct program code that they s/b using). Anyway, the trick is to go to the relevant directory page & right-click on the "PDF of this" link near the top. You should then get an option to "copy this link" or something with similar wording, depending on what web browser you are using. Copy it and use instead of the normal one in the cite template's url parameter: it will take people to a PDF of the page. PDFs are to be avoided wherever possible but in this particular instance they are the only useful way of presenting a direct link to the item & therefore are ok. - Sitush (talk) 16:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh that explains a lot. I thought it was odd that you only got a distant kind of link to the actual page you wanted. Where do I write the page no? with the title? and can I write several if necessary as the links to both Midville and Eastville cite info within the directory in different places. There is a section for each village but also an earlier bit which explains the draining of the East, West and Wildmore fens. This was the last area to be drained and Midville, Eastville, Frithville, Langrick (or Langriville) and several other places didnt really exist prior to this. Thats why they all have the appalling Ville tag - people of the times thought it sounded very modern and appealing and would encourage folks to live there. Wierd but true. My ancestors lived all over Lincolnshire (you may have noticed I edited Duddington Nthants today as well cos they lived there too) so I have a lot of places with vested interests.

As for the railway ref on Eastville - I nicked it directly from the East Ville Railway Station page so I guess Ill have to try and improve on that. Question there are several really good railway sites out there, I did use Disused Stations as a ref with one of them, but there is also Dave Enefers Railway site hes really good but it is a kind of personal website so is it okay to use? He has documented everything really well and in a professional manner.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.enefer/

Thanks for advice Panderoona 18:57, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

PS dont worry abt how to add page no I worked it out :) Panderoona 19:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Did You Know

Hi. I've nominated Brothertoft, an article you worked on, for consideration to appear on the Main Page as part of Wikipedia:Did you know. You can see the hook for the article here, where you can improve it if you see fit. Sitush (talk) 20:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh my goodness!! oh Sitush thank you - you deserve credit helping me, for teaching me and being so patient though - and Carole. Youve both been fantastic. Im feeling a little emotional!! :) It saddens me there are SO many little Lincs villages with little or no info at all on them, and Im trying to add to them a bit, learn the tags and references and such and its kinda easier to work with Wiki this way until I really have it inside my head. Then Ill go back and try and get more info once Im more "established". But wow if that article were to be put on Did You Know well it would certainly put Brothertoft "On The Map" wouldnt it!! Thank you again :) Panderoona 20:28, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I keep forgetting to indent doh! I did make a small addition as "nominee" :) Panderoona 20:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a limit of 200 characters for the hook. Not checking your addition now but will do later (or Carole might, and the reviewer of it definitely will). - Sitush (talk) 20:49, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations for the DYK nomination! That was thoughtful of you Sitush! I'll take a look at the article and see if there's anything I can do. --CaroleHenson (talk)

regardless of our arguing today and you said be bold so I am being - I still thank you for this. Please either let me know when it shows up or jump the gun and contact http://www.bostonstandard.co.uk/Panderoona (talk) 16:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Gravestone

Can't improve the pic. Have added the inscription as a note. It is a bit tricky to do so I suggest that you proof-read the note in the article and let me know what is wrong (there is a bit which I cannot read & I doubt very much that Anne was the 1797th daughter of her father!) Stopping for a rest now but will fix the issue per whatever your clarification is that you put below this. - Sitush (talk) 20:48, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Is not easy is it!! I know this and I took the darned photo. Getting the relevent info in shot with a cheap snappy camera wasnt easy amongst the trees belive me. Their grave is actually the largest in the churchyard but you wouldnt know it from that pic. I should have taken a longer distance shot as well but didnt. And for a crippled lady in Surrey, its a long way to Brothertoft which is 4 miles from Boston and any kind of transport. Last yr we went there, (when I took the pic), with my brother who unlike me does actually drive. While we were away, daddy had his stroke. This year we are not gonna go and leave him. So an update on that photo is not going to be forthcoming :(

Anyway from my notes it says:

Thomas : Gee of Brothertoft Born : March : 26 : 1788 Died : Sept : 6 : 1871 (or & I am sure I looked long and hard at it and decided it was a 7) Anne : Gee: his : wife 1796? (I think its her birthdate?)the : daughter : of : the R.e.v : Naunton : Thomas : Orgill Leman of : Brampton : Hall : Suffolk died : May; 27 : 1878 : aged : 81 : years

Ann Leman m.Thomas Gee at Brampton Sfk in 1822. She was d/o Naunton Thomas Orgill Leman of Brampton Hall Sfk, and his wife Henrietta Jane Anderson The Lemans held Brampton Hall for many years - and there was something about the Leman name dying out and the Orgill family won the right (1806) to the name via being blood relatives in the female line. (rough since we are talking about it. I can provide sources if necessary but dont think it is since we are only really talking about Ann the daughter of Naunton Thomas Orgill Leman & Henrietta Jane Anderson. Have a good sleep nite nite Panderoona 21:07, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Ann Leman from my notes was baptised 02-10-1796 having been born at Brampton 26.09.1796 their marriage date was 26.03.1822. Thomas Gee left a will to William Gee the younger of Boston (Lincs) resworn 1877 to the effect of under £8,000.

Thomas Gee did actually rebuild the church at his sole expense according to Kellys (etc) directories so he is a significant character, along with his unmarried sisters, the Misses Gee (Martha 1786-1874 and Mary 1789-1877. A memorial to the sisters is in Boston Stump aka St Botolphs Church Boston Lincolnshire. They were all children (Thomas Martha and Mary) of Henry Gee banker of Boston Lincolnshire (d.1845 Boston Stump) and his wife Martha Fitzwilliam Brotherton c.03.05.1759 at Boston and buried 1836 Boston Stump.

Y.o.d for Thos is definitely 1871. Not only because I blew your photo up but also because Anne is reported as being a widow in the directory of 1872. I think 1797 is what it says for Anne's y.o.b. but I could be wrong - someone else needs to blow the photo up (and turn it to greyscale etc) to double-check. "The" made sense to me but it did look like "th :" - I think we can safely assume that your notes are correct here. I suspect that there should be a ":" between "Orgill" and "Leman", but if your notes say otherwise ...

Maybe get on to the local newspaper, tell them that the hamlet has appeared on the front page (wait until it does, just in case it does not) & appeal for someone to take a another pic or transcription so that the issue can be resolved? Got to be worth a go and because you have a connection to the place it might come better from you. DYKs are only on the front page for 8 hours & you can neither choose the time slot nor even the day, but they are marked as DYKs for ever. - Sitush (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Sad part of the story is : not everyone connected with the place that knew our family is still alive. The Larringtons and Phoenix families in the area are stilla abt but those that knew me dad are gone :(. Horace Robinsons son does know my dads name thats for sure its getting him interested whilst holding Brothertoft Hall and Farm and all that entails which is kinda BIG so I dont expect him to respond unless I have info he doesnt, or he can see I am a serious researcher. I know he would know my dads name instantly if I said it. But I want good stuff to send him to get a response if you know what I mean. :) Panderoona 21:55, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

That's not needed, I'd guess. A letter to a local paper should, if printed, attract the attention of someone. Maybe even someone from a local history society. I'm wary of anything appearing before the DYK date because it could also attract a lot of interested "amateurs" to the article & they might start buggering about with it in a way that harms the DYK nom (an article must be "stable" for the nom to succeed). I can handle two or three newbies at one time & set them on the right tracks etc, but not half a county of them. No offence intended. - Sitush (talk) 22:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

understood and in your shoes Id agree. :)

Brothertoft edits completed

Ok, I finished the Brothertoft edits with the goal of: 1) resolving any discrepancies or missing info and 2) removing all the needs citation templates for the DYK. I also removed the "needs improvement" template and added a note to the "Discuss" tab about the "free school" piece. Wow, this article really came along. Ready for prime time now? --CaroleHenson (talk) 23:47, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow its looking grand isnt it!! I did send the link to my parents and brother yesterday they were all completely gobsmacked that we had found so much information about what is after all a small village. The "icing on the cake" for them was the picture Sitush found of the church before restoration. So a massive thank you to both of you for all your help. Panderoona 06:15, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

One final clarification: you were bang on regarding Thomas Gees death - I just looked up his will on Ancestry - 7th March 1872 - Thomas Gee late of Brothertoft Hall who died 6th September 1871 at Brothertoft Hall proved at Lincoln by Thomas Wise Esq of Boston and William Gee the younger Esq of Boston the Executors. Effects under £30,000. There is a handwritten note beside this "Resworn April 1877 under £8,000.

It's great your family enjoyed it!! It's been fun writing with you! Now I have two new phrases for my vocabulary: "gobsmacked" and "bang on". Something I don't hear much of... Night, very late getting to bed.--CaroleHenson (talk) 07:49, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

we learn something knew every day :) Nite Carole Panderoona 10:57, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Your recent edits

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four halfwidth tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Botty. Ho hum I type Panderoona 19:23, 17 April 2011 (UTC) but it doesnt seem to work. so now Im going to have to adapt to using the pencil ;) --Panderoona 19:23, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

ok been into preferences and changed something lets hope it works now Panderoona (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

HAH!! sorted. Sorry Botty wont happen again cos now I can sign. Something in the settings was ticked and shouldnt have been :) happy dayz Panderoona (talk) 19:29, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

For future reference, what was the "something" ? - Sitush (talk) 19:33, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Something to do with making a signature? I think if you wanted to make yours unique or something? I thought about unchecking it and testing it, and then I thought I wonder if itll go if I hit revert to site default, and so I hit that instead. And it was unchecked after and now I can sign. So if it happens with another newbie youll know what to tell em to do :) Panderoona (talk) 19:37, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

---

Back to Brothertoft Ive just been reading something that claims that Brothertoft was also/or once known as Goosetoft !!! (never had a clue!!))

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924028040727/cu31924028040727_djvu.txt Highways and Byways of Lincolnshire if you use edit/find on your browser and type Goosetoft in it comes up, and it also comes up on Google something to do with Samuel Pepys Diary.Panderoona (talk) 19:48, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Google Books has interesting reading in The History Of Lincolnshire

and backs up the claim that Brothertoft and Goosetoft were the same place.

It also explains that Thomas Saul built the hall and his son (unnamed) finished either it or the Baptist Chapel (its not particular clear) and claims the father bought the land. I think this might explain the Thomas Saul/John Saul discrepancy. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ShAHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA411&dq=goosetoft&hl=en&ei=wEerTfmlD8ek8QOZrtW4Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=goosetoft&f=false

Oh my, now this has really set me thinking. If Brothertoft became so known after it was known as Goosetoft - and if its true it was so called because of two brothers owning the land, I think I might know who its referring to........

Thomas Pelham Holles brother was Henry Pelham, and Im sure its no coincidence that there are murky references to them around without much detail - and that there is still a place in the vicinity called Pelhams Lands. Im pretty certain its linked to the Newcastle dynasty somehow anyway. What do you guys think? Panderoona (talk) 20:28, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'd seen a Goosetoft thing, although perhaps not the one you mention. It related to the fact that geese were kept on the fens. The problem with what I saw was that there was no timescale and it flew in the face of some rather serious modern academic research concerning Lincolnshire placenames, which is already cited. I've put it on the backburner for now but it should appear in the article, with some rather careful wording. Your comment about Thomas/John is, I am afraid, original research - we're not allowed to do this. As for your updated thoughts about the Pelhams, well, two things:

1. it is original research; and
2. it is wrong - the Brothertoft name dates to before 1540, as is already cited by the modern academic source I refer to above. - Sitush (talk) 20:33, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

thats why I didnt charge off and edit the page ;) I figured it was ::::likely that it would be deemed such. And certainly wanted a second ::::opinion.

The folks in the Holland Fen area were called Fen Slodgers, and ::::they all dealt with waterfowl (mainly geese) so it wasnt just in ::::relation to the Brothertoft area.

What do you think abt Thomas Saul/John Saul? I know its original ::::research again but I did check the IGI and there was a Thos Saul ::::s/o John c.1731 - at Brothertoft. So it does seem likely that the ::::son finished what the father started (whether that was the Hall or ::::the Baptist chapel is unclear) and that explains the confusion ::::over names. Panderoona (talk) 20:53, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

sorry just realised Id missed a line of your reply and you already

answered that question.Panderoona (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Im actually a bit narked now - I believe the info on Robert Carre and on the School to be verifiable by online sources but its not "good enough". Well considering the recent conversation about Goosetoft (which was probably a pet name for Brothertoft like Skegvegas is for Skegness today) and the amount of wildfowl that was kept at Brothertoft (and everywhere else on the fens) and the fact I mentioned Fen Slodgers which IS what they were called, Im suprised that no one bothered to look at the WILDLY INACCURATE and to a Lincolnshire Yellowbelly frankly offensive few lines written about Fen Slodgers & Yellowbellys under the only apparent piece on Fen Slodgers on this site. It is under the title Fen Tigers and says they were otherwise called Fen Slodgers or Yellowbellies and attributes them to the fenlands of East Anglia. Lincolnshire Yellowbelly is specific to Lincolnshire. No one in Lincs ever heard of Fen Tigers, and I suspect Fen Slodgers was specific to Lincs as well. So they shouldnt be in that article. Both Fen Slodgers and Lincolnshire Yellowbellys are very important in Lincolnshire. Panderoona (talk) 08:44, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I haven't looked at any article about Lincs other than Brothertoft. There are 3.5 million articles here & you are not going to find anyone who keeps an eye on even, say, 10k of them. In any event, you cannot use personal knowledge without a citation.

As far as the Carre cites go, one obvious issue is that the cite you used in the article (Sleaford Council) is not the ones that you have now raised on the article talk page (National Archives). I said before that I'd seen the comment about Goosetoft & am looking into it - what I'm not doing is working off a speculative "probable". You have learned fast & maybe the next "trick" to get a grip of is that speculation is out. No historian in their right mind would do it about a factual statement; no contributor to a printed encyclopedia would do it; we cannot do it. It's fun, but it doesn't actually achieve anything. Thanks for the pic, by the way: I can't even draw a straight line with a ruler, so am impressed! - Sitush (talk) 09:00, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

As far as speculation goes, the supposed fact that Brothertoft was named after two brothers is also speculation based on a story that was recounted in a book. All Brothertoft folks believe - rightly or wrongly - that the village was so named because of its attachment to Sempringham. I would say that given the timescale (Brothertoft being mentioned in the 1500s at the time of the dissolution, that an attachment to Sempringham and the Gilbertines is more likely (if still not concrete) than a story about two brothers written in what was it the 1700s? So where does something, precisely, become a fact?

When it is in a reliable source. As it happens, the source in this case says "brothers", which could be siblings or members of a religious house, so it is no big deal - all angles are covered. Out of interest, where does local knowledge reckon that Swineshead fits in? You may want to take another look at Fen Tigers and the talk page of the user who created it. - Sitush (talk) 09:34, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I didnt see this bit. I dont know of any "local knowledge" about Swineshead apart from where it is, and the fact some of my family have lived there for the past century and a bit in Swineshead Bridge. If you mean where the name comes from I have no idea. I there was an Abbey there, and I believe its a much older place. Right Im off. Panderoona (talk) 10:18, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Swineshead Abbey records show they earned money from Brothertoft, where they used to keep cattle. - Sitush (talk) 10:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

wouldnt suprise me its not very far away. Mind you if memory serves me right its seperated by Kirton Holme and Hubberts Bridge. (and if I were to be pedantic Toft Tunnel as well). Are you suggesting the brothers in question may have come from Swineshead not Sempringham? I have seen references to Sempringham using Brothertoft land, so its a question of which of the two actually did (if the stories true) provide the two brothers in question. But that would be both speculation and original research so it can't be incuded

anyways. Panderoona (talk) 13:53, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Think outside the box here: it could be that both of the religious houses used the land, either simultaneously or at different times. I'm not suggesting anything, though: I've got sources that say they both did, and they're already in the article. The question is: why didn't the people of Brothertoft know this when they supposedly know everything about their home? It's because tittle-tattle passed down through generations by word-of-mouth is not a reliable source. They aren't liars etc, just blinkered. - Sitush (talk) 16:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

no they arent blinkered. They do believe what they believe on the best information they had at the time which wasnt much to go on which I was hoping to improve on. Dont forget the scope of my own research extends to other people in the village not just landholders, that remain in living memory. I fully agree word of mouth and chinese whispers and it was my intention to try to uncover the truth. My mothers side of the family are Romanies, and they believe they came out of Egypt and it completely confounds Gypsies to discover they are actually from India.

Swineshead is much closer to Brothertoft than Sempringham even if they did hold land there. However, its worth noting also that between Swineshead and Brothertoft are Kirton Holme Hubberts Bridge and Toft Tunnel. Why not park cattle there? how long is a piece of string?

I have tried my hardest today to grit teeth and go back over things and try and verify what I can. I believe that ref to William Ernest Sharpe and Horace Robinson should stay despite no sources because its within living memory. Mary Sharpe, Ernies daughter, married Horace Robinson and their son today holds the Hall, and she assuming shes still alive (she was last I heard) lives in the gatehouse attached to the village hall. Now I can't prove any of that but it is within living memory and perfectly accurate.

on a seperate note: here is a cornumdrum (Im not great at spelling). Now before my great granparents died, they lived in a wooden bungalow which was called the Rio Grande at Kirton Holme. (They are both buried in Brothertoft along with my grandparents.) My father remembers very well where the Rio Grande was and what it looked like. We visited Kirton Holme about 10 yrs ago looking for it, and it had been bricked around and still exists as far as I know today. However. The name Rio Grande now sits on the front door of the house next door.

So, if one were to persue a relevant fact in regard to family history, and one didnt know that it was a wooden bungalow (and didnt have the photos which proved it), one would assume that it was the house, even if that were innaccurate. Panderoona (talk) 16:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The reason for parking cattle at Brothertoft was because it was apparently (relatively) raised. However, this does not mean that the other places you mention were free of cattle: they could all have been used for the purpose - depends how many cattle we're talking about etc. It could also be that they rented the land out to cattle owners and that the revenue which is recorded is rents rather than sales of meat or dairy, skins etc.

Sharpe and Robinson will definitely go without some sort of citation. I cannot keep repeating myself about this, so you'll either have to like it or lump it, I'm afraid. Living memory is not reliable and not verifiable in the sense that Wikipedia accepts. I'm not saying that your info is wrong, it is just not acceptable. What isn't said cannot be wrong. Well, not in a situation like this at any rate.

I do not accept your point about family history, sorry. The example you give is precisely way family historians cock it up so often. Me? I check back through old maps, post office records etc before I say that place A is really place A and not something else. I've come across the situation you mention before, and also the situation where people have presumed a building etc no longer exists when in fact all that has happened is that its name has been changed. It's all about thinking critically and taking nothing at face value. It is also about not having preconceptions, which is one reason why Wikipedia strongly discourages people editing articles with which they have a conflict of interest. I'm not saying you have a COI here but there are elements which are similar.

Honestly, the best way to approach any article is with an open mind. Throw out of your head what you know to be "true", read around and build something up with available sources ... and hopefully what you know to be true will turn up. If it doesn't, then that is just tough. You are sometimes trying to go in the opposite direction, from what you know to the source. This is ok provided you don't impute to the source a meaning that is not there - and that is a tough mental trick. Maybe you can do it but I usually find it very hard. - Sitush (talk) 17:01, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Newcastle dynasty

You mentioned somewhere above that you were pretty convinced that Brothertoft connects with the Newcastle dynasty, by which I presume you mean at an earlier date that what is already said in the article. AS best as I can make out, it was possibly connected to the Northumberland dynasty in the 1300s, but even the source for this statement can't verify it because there were two places called Toft. Also, the source is clearly wrong on a point in the same sentence, since he refers to Henry de PErcy's wife as being Joan. There was no wife of any of the Henry de Percys around that time called Joan. Like the Newcastles, the Northumberlands seem to have a messy series of shut-downs and revivals of their titles. Too complicated by half! I would imagine the the two dynasties themselves connect somewhere in the past, but since the name Brothertoft (and the settlement there) didn't exist before 1350, I'd guess that bit is rather irrelevant to the article. - Sitush (talk) 09:07, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

---

Ancestral lineages There were many landed and important families that pass through almost unnoticed. The Kyme (or De Kyme) family turned up in the guise of the Denman Family in the early 20th century. I knew Pete Denman last descendant now deceased very well. Herbert Ingram the founder of the Illustrated London News who also brough water to Boston his hometown, is the great grandson of the Herbert Ingram born in Brothertoft, and no doubt although I can't prove it linked to those Ingrams holding land that you mentioned. The Leggott family held farms in Brothertoft and are still around today, as are the Phoenix family, and possibly the Allen family - Ted Allen died some years ago and Im not sure if his descendants kept the farm. The Larringtons are still in the vicinity, and possibly have no clue that their ancestor was Ebenezeer Larrington of the Hall. Sadly the ones my dad knew are all gone. I was hoping to compile a reasonable amount of information and then intended to contact all these peoples descendant in the hope of improving a parish article which would be left with all contributors, and the Parish Church. So whilst we may be blinkered, the quest for truth does go on. And it will go on. Regardless of encyclopediac references. I hoped to come here to improve a sadly wanting article, not to hurt my own brain. Whilst I am a family historian I am not a Historian and I have no degrees or etc qualifications. Panderoona (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Your don't need qualifications to edit Wikipedia. And I know some very bright people who are clueless about this sort of thing precisely because they "think too much". Nor do I know everything: take a look at Talk:Isaac_Perrins/GA1 to see someone criticising of what I've done. Take it on the chin and learn from it. An analogy is a journalist writing for a newspaper: all newspapers have "style manuals" (as indeed does Wikipedia - WP:MOS) and the fact that the journo is used to writing "Mr." or dates in the format day-month-year doesn't mean that s/he can do so when the paper's manual says they should write "Mr". or month-day-year. At least when we get it wrong we don't lose our job! - Sitush (talk) 17:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Over any other sub I happy to let go but not this one. Its too dar to my heart. I do this out of love. wat does Wiki do it for? free info thats what it does it for so why should I do it and why should I care. Im not in for me but I AM in it for the parishoners who care about their forebears. So if Im wrong do me be damned with it and let us all walk away. cos if not for me youd still have 3 or 4 unverified lines about this parish and thats a fact Panderoona (talk) 21:11, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there isn't a single cite in the article that I haven't discovered myself, and that which is not cited should not be there. More importantly, I do not understand your "free information" point: do you think that Wikipedia make money on the back of this? If you do then I am afraid that you completely misunderstand it. It costs money, but does not make it. - Sitush (talk) 21:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Two cents

Rather than leave this message on the Brothertoft discussion page, I just wanted to say that I thought that even though there was a lot of information to sort through, I thought the work had been a great collaborative effort. I left a message on the talk page you may want to read.

For now, I'm hurt. I'm not sure at what point it became personal and helping out was seen as such a negative thing. Again I'm sorry for anything that I may have done that hurt you, but at this point I am ready to take this Talk Page and the Brothertoft article off my watchlist. Take care.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:49, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Mumby

Hi. Looks like the links to Kelly's Directory in the Mumby article is faulty - well it reads so from my end. If it's not a temporary glitch, do you have a different or better-formed URL for Kelly's? Acabashi (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorted it for you. - Sitush (talk) 20:24, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

thank you - it looked ok this end so was suprised to find it was wonky. these things happen! Panderoona (talk) 21:45, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

It was actually wrong everywhere (as they were on Brothertoft etc), for the reason I pointed out to you last week, ie: you need to use the link in the "PDF" widget on the relevant page of the directory because the website itself is very badly designed. No worries, but if you have used Kellys etc elsewhere then they'll all need to be revisited and the links fixed. - Sitush (talk) 21:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

theyll have to stay for now as am away for rest of the weekend - whilst I may be able to get online I doubt enough for editing as in company. Happy Easter. :) Panderoona (talk) 21:52, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

B'toft DYK is on front page tomorrow from 8am until 2pm, or something around that. - Sitush (talk) 21:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I saw the queue and that it was going to be on - I did email Boston Standard local paper in regard to it and that it would be shown approx those times (I actually gave 7am -1pm because I forgot about Summertime.) Hopefully someone will pick it up. And yes agree with you that there was, in the end, a conflict of interest on that particular parish - I wanted more known than Wiki required because it was so dear to me. Im sorry about that, recent edits include: Mumby, Bilsby, Alford & Sutton Tramway, Wrangle,Langrick and two new pages: Cumberworth and Langriville - which if I go to WikiProject Lincolnshire dont show up as recent edits and dont know why. Am not including here a few more parishes where I just added photos or tweaked formats. I guess despite everything I did become an addict!!.

perhaps I should add, that my question is: despite making a couple of new entries in Villages In Lincolnshire viz: Cumberworth and Langriville- the same do not show up auto as created pages for the WikiProject so no one else will be able to help edit those - which does worry me as the info I have looked up is very basic. And does include such refs as the likes of Kellys. So my question is how do I make those instantly alertable to those editing and helping on the WikiProject Lincolnshire? thanks if you can point me in the right direction.

ps I could add that I would be willing to collate data and write about Fen Slodgers, if the Fen Tigers article could be re-named Fen Slodgers, which is as I have lately discovered the term most likley to be used for Fen-folks. Whether they be in Lincolnshire, Cambs, or Norfolk, etc. Fen Tiger seems to be a more localised and lesser known title than Fen Slodger - and as it stands am unwilling to add details or verification under that title. Please advise.

I think that project pages sometimes take a couple of days to catch up with the action. Some take even longer! As far as Fen Tigers etc goes, I certainly found plenty of sources for Tigers as a term in E Anglia but few for it being used in Lincs. For this reason, I amended that page. I didn't check out Slodgers, although I'd already seen it in reading up on Brothertoft. It could be that Slodgers was used all over the shop but Tigers was more restricted use. It would need quite a bit of research in order to avoid any challenge. Were you aware that you can create drafts of pages in your own "userspace" and then have them moved in the the main article space when you are ready? That might be a worthwhile approach for something like this. Had a small heart attack last week, so I'll be dipping in and out of things here for the foreseable. - Sitush (talk) 22:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

thanks for info regarding time taken for articles to 'catch up' makes sense since many I am sure will be taking an Easter break. with regard to Fen Slodgers it does seem that was a more universal term for fen-folks prior to enclosure, regardless of Lincs/Norfolk/Cams and etc. Have become aware of using Notepad for rough drafts of parishes/info as well as the sandbox - and so on, somehow still find I have to tweak info because Im dumb ;) but at least its getting out there slowly. Take care regard yr health Sitush nothing is worth that. Although I do certainly appreciate the desire to leave a mark saying x I was here. Have a good Easter catch up soon.

DYK for Brothertoft

The DYK project (nominate) 06:04, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

wow some hits there for the past couple weeks, (mind you most of them were probably sitush me and carole)I think we can say we put Brothertoft on the map. happy days. :D

The hit counter tends to lag slightly. In my own (limited) experience, check the count again on Monday and you may see the results for the 23rd. 1,500 or so views on the day seems to be the norm for my stuff, which tends to be quirky rather than "in your face". Easter weekend is not the best of times for a DYK, I guess, as many people are away but something has to fill the slot - the project cannot suspend a feature just because in some parts of the world it is a significant date. - Sitush (talk) 23:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

However many hits it gets it will be enough to satisfy me :) I thought it rather nice it ended up being on the front page of Wikipedia on St Georges Day. Saw my parents yesterday and my dad told me a couple of stories about Brothertoft thatll never see the light of day on Wiki ;) Hes also lent me a couple of books one on 17thC Lincolnshire and one on the East West and Wildmore Fens. watch this space!. By the way can I delete some of these messages, scrolling further and further down the page every time is not so convienient? Thanks as always, Panderoona (talk) 07:17, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Boston Baptist Chapel

Request for ideas to get info on Boston Baptist Chapel, reputedly built by Thomas or John Saul circa 1760-80 in vain hope of uncovering who exactly built Brothertoft Hall. I know where the present chapel is, and I knew I had seen somewhere reference to a memorial to the previous chapel, the one reputedly built by Thomas/John Saul. All I have come up with is this: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/57114/8867694 which helpfully explains it was replaced in 1837, but the memorial I recalled does indeed exist. Unfortunatly, it doesnt help. This is interesting to me for several reasons. My father was born at Brotheroft and my grandad lived there most of his life. But my mothers grandfather lived at 129 High St (now demolished) only a short hop from that chapel. Gt Grandad lived in a house belonging to the railway, which was next door to the entrance to the Goods Yard where he was forman. Furthermore, My great great aunt on my dads maternal line (lived at Essex cottages Boston West (Punchbowl Lane)) died aged 5 and was buried in a non conformist cem - I think baptist which was as I recall explained to be in Sleaford Road, details are vague - but I have a feeling that it may have been the Baptist Chapel - and thats where poor Bertha (who died of Scarlet Fever and TB) lies.I have her death certificate but of course that does not record burial place. Panderoona (talk) 21:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried Pastscape? I use it for castles, but it often has older churches and chapels in it. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

thanks for that I hadnt heard of that place Ill have a look :) Panderoona (talk) 10:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Panderoona. You have new messages at Acabashi's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Eastville, Lincolnshire

I made this edit. William Avery (talk) 21:34, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Nice work

Terrific stuff on your new WSM, and the new WST WAS's section - nice pic you added. You were absolutely right to revert the WSM merge. I'll add a little from J. Charles Cox on the WSM church as a bit of light relief from the Copyedit drive - it's a bit of a hot house over there - you ought to give it a try sometime - steep learning curve but with supportive co-ordinators. The Wainfleet All Saints is now beginning to look pretty impressive - lovely job. Acabashi (talk) 04:47, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks so much Acabashi - it really helps to get such positive feedback! I found a new site a couple of days ago called "Lincs to the Past" - Ive been busy looking at stuff Im personally interested in and havent even looked at what they might have on Wainfleet yet, Ill have to put it on my list of "to do's". Its a good site though, collates a lot of data on Lincs History, if you are interested. I think the learning curve Ive had here the past three weeks is enough for now!! but perhaps in future. Very best wishes :)

Infobox co-ords

Hi, just a note on the longitude & latitude parameters in the {{Infobox UK place}}. These should both have the same number of decimal places, they can be padded with trailing zeros to achieve this. Keith D (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

ok Thanks. Didnt realise. Panderoona (talk) 21:15, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back

I was pleasantly surprise to hear that you're back. Hey I was wondering if you wouldn't mind taking a look at something for me - it's very much a work in progress - but it's an attempt to provide information about how Wikipedia operates in a conversational tone: User:CaroleHenson/Getting Started Concepts. Do you think something like that would have been helpful for you? If so, do you have any thoughts about what would make it more useful? Looking forward to chatting!--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Hiya Carole thanks for getting in touch :) I wasnt away very long, but I decided it was best to start with small articles and work my confidence up that way. I can do infoboxes and all sorts now and really enjoying the whole Wiki experience - it gets kind of addictive doesnt it? I even ended up borrowing books on Lincolnshires history from my dad so that I can add to articles on the villages and so on and so forth. I havent looked at your "work in progress" yet but Ill wing my way over now. Best wishes and stay in touch Panderoona (talk) 15:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Haslet

Hi Panderoona, I have replied to your comment on my talk page here. Acabashi (talk) 15:03, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

A well-deserved barnstar for you Panderoona

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		For creating new - and diligently improving and providing much information in other - Lincolnshire articles, while always promoting the necessity for proper and relevant citations. Much appreciated. Acabashi (talk) 00:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Please copy this to your user page. Acabashi (talk) 00:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

BRILLIANT! Well done, Panderoona. Initial issues done & dusted; now you are on the move. I have been quietly watching and would agree entirely with Acabashi's sentiments. - Sitush (talk) 00:16, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

oh wow now I have to work out how to put that on my page like you guys have the same/simlilar 0 yes I feel very proud right now, but thats not why I kept plugging away at things, it was of (as Im sure it is for you) a real desire to put info out there. Thank you SO much, Id never have made it this far without yours - Sitush, Carole Henson Acabashi help - youre great :) Panderoona (talk) 00:40, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see your email earlier about Woodhall Spa, I'd seen on my watchlist so much great work happening! And to see it now, I am really impressed. I'll see if I can find some references for the notable people - but I'm guessing if Acabashi tried and couldn't find them, it might be hard to come by. Really great work!!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

By the way, LOVE your directional table! I'm going to use it for an arcticle I've been working on for Taos, New Mexico.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I nicked it off the Navenby page ;) I thought it looked quite flashy. As for the notable folks at Woodhall - I havent touched it mainly cos I couldnt find anything either - altho one person there Steven Plater I think it was Ive seen elsewhere linked to Kirkby On Bain which is the next parish to the east. So if no one comes forward to prove those people for Woodhall Spa, eventually we will remove them. Glad to hear from you :) Panderoona (talk) 20:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Crowle

I've been spending a few days off building a new site: Crowle Advertiser. Being a big county, North Lincs is culturally and in dialect Yorkshireish, and South Lincs Fennish. But it's all Lincs in name, so you might find some of the entries interesting, useful, revealing or amusing, such as Lincolnshire Superstitions. Teresa Williams has done a lot of research on the Stamford Mercury. The next time I'm at Colindale I might try some of the other Lincs papers. It's worth a visit to Colindale if you are in the area - one of the little-known library gems, not just for newspapers but for researching all sorts of historical publications in hard copy and microfilm, and it's interior is like the quiet old-fashioned libraries that we used to know if we are of a certain age. Acabashi (talk) 11:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

that sounds interesting Acabashi, I shall have a look. I have actually been to Colindale, although only once and a long time ago. I was researching the story of my 4xgrt aunt Priscilla Biggadike who was hung at Lincoln. Reading her story (actually read the Boston Guardian articles) there made me feel extremely sad for her, although of course it was a long time ago. Whilst there I also picked up the newspaper report of the deaths of two gypsies Tyso Boswell and Edward Heron at Tetford in 1831 - they were struck by lightening. Two years ago I finally got to Tetford to photograph their gravestone. I can say two things, I began researching family history in 1990, back when it meant spending hours in dusty archives or getting your head knocked off by the enormous books at the GRO, and no one had a computer let alone it all being online! So I absolutely get where you are coming from - and two being a "certain age" - Ill be 46 next month, and have a grandson due literally any day now (so if I disappear youll know Im busy with the nappies. ;) Panderoona (talk) 15:50, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I posted on a family history site about your Crowle page so hopefully you will get a few visitors ;) Have you considered a Lincolnshire Superstitions page here? or do you think that it would end up in the bin? I must say the one about eating mistletoe made me a bit worried to say the least!! My father (in his 80s) has his grandmothers recipe book which makes for some pretty interesting reading not only in regard to food recipes but variations on floor and furniture polish and cures for ailments. If it interests you I will have to see if he will lend it to me - if he wont, I can access the internet from there so next time Im over Ill copy a few for you if you like? Panderoona (talk) 20:51, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and the child sucking a frog to death is a bit peculiar too. I think Lincs Superstitions wouldn't jump the first hurdle. You couldn't list them - original research - and what could be written in general terms about the subject and where would the refs be? You could build a web site for your old Lincolnshire Remedies and Recipes - there's a good title for you - and it might become a new obsession :) Acabashi (talk) 15:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Christ dont give me anything else to get obsessive about ;) - yes I see your point in regard to Lincs article. Still - if you are interested in any wierd cures or recipes Id gladly pass them on when Im next at my olds. Panderoona (talk) 15:03, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Sock

I asked for an investigation into Makepiece101 as a sock or meat puppet of one of the editors of the Elwell page - the account has been blocked see here. Out of courtesy, this information copied to other current editors of the Elwell talk page should not be referred to within the Elwell talk page. Acabashi (talk) 16:46, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Autopatrolled

Hi Panderoona, just wanted to let you know that I have added the autopatrolled right to your account, as you have created numerous, valid articles. This feature will have no effect on your editing, and is simply intended to reduce the workload on new page patrollers. For more information on the patroller right, see Wikipedia:Autopatrolled. Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! Sadads (talk) 22:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Pands, although this has no effect on your editing it does represent an acceptance of trust in your contributions to the project. As such, it is another milestone for you. I am really pleased about this. Your new article count is about 30 more than mine, which is why I've never bothered applying, but Sadads is a Top Man and knows what he is looking at. I dare you to swap the captions on the two photos at his userpage! No, don't! - Sitush (talk) 23:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

LOL - naughty!! Many thanks Sitush for the comments, and many thanks also to Sadads for having trust in me. I hope to do the project proud :) Panderoona (talk) 00:45, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Sent you an email re: Sandys. - Sitush (talk) 00:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Sandys

Hi! I'm going to take a bit of a break. When you get a chance, do you mind look at Talk:Anthony Frederick Augustus Sandys#Next steps? Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Will do tomorrow - if circumstance allows - imminent grandson/result of bone marrow aspiration (Dad) Panderoona (talk) 19:41, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh, my goodness! Good luck with that. Yes, touch base whenever it's convenient. I've got some other things to work on in the meantime.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Lincolnshire villages

Hi Panderoona I am just letting you know that I have started of Riby, North Scarle, West Rasen, West Rasen, Middle Rasen and Stapleford, Lincolnshire‎. Brattleby 36 (talk) 11:38, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

hiya, cheers for that Ill have a look :) Panderoona (talk) 12:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Touching base

Hi Panderona, I haven't heard from you in awhile so I thought I'd touch base to see how your family is doing. I hope well!--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:38, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Baby was born yest - but terrifyingly born apparently dead, blue, no life, no breathing. Thank heavens, they got him going pretty quick and he spent the nite in ICU but is now out, and so we are all feeling much better today than yest. Panderoona (talk) 19:51, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank goodness he came around! How scarey that must of been for you and your family! I hope that now that he's out of ICU there's going to be great bonding and cuddling time!--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:32, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

went to see him yesterday and had a lovely cuddle. He is going to be in a little longer has an infection, but all are doing really well and mother and father are spending all their time with him bonding, thanks so much for keeping in touch Carole, I feel like my feet are just about getting back to earth now. Might even manage a few articles today! Panderoona (talk) 09:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I'm so glad to hear he's on the mend - and able to get lots of loving!--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:07, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Lincs articles

Hi Panderoona, I hope all is going well with your grandchild.

I am at leisure methodically working through and reviewing (and improving if I can find stuff) all Lincs articles - I'm on to "B" now. A small point - it's best not to double space paras; just one space between them. I'm surprised how many Lincs articles have been wallowing in imperfection for a number of years. Best wishes, Acabashi (talk) 15:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

soz, thought it looked a bit nicer when theres not much to write, the actual article seems to disappear amongst the references. Never mind. Yes its frightening how many are wanting. Still we are going to get there. Panderoona (talk) 18:21, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Welcome, Plus a Comment on a Mutual Friend

Welcome to Wikipedia (a couple of months late, apparently). Glad you're here. Trust me when I say that - God only knows why - but this place can REALLY get to a person in some ways. I myself have been both elated beyond words AND enraged nearly to homicide since I started here maybe 16 months ago or so. But theres something about this place that is really awesome. When I figure out what that is, I will try to let you know :-)

I happened to run across your name (and a ton of dialogue) as I was posting some stupid comments on the Talk Page of one of the coolest people around here, namely User:WhatamIdoing. While I merely quickly scanned what you two discussed, and therefore, I'm not really sure what got you two tussling, but I did want to say that if you happened to feel like she was projecting ANY "hard feelings" your way, you must have accidently misinterpreted her, or misunderstood her (or vice-versa). As sure as you can expect the sun to rise in the East, you can rest assured that WaId is arguably one of the very nicest, most giving, hardest working contributors around here. NO WAY ON GODS EARTH she would be unfair, or smart-alecky, or ANYTHING negative. Had to be just a fluke thing, GUARANTEE IT.

In any case, its really NOMB, just wanted to welcome you and letcha know that you must have accidently misunderstood her. She's a class act and a really sweetie pie. Hang in there, keep contributing!

All the best wishes: Cliff Knickerbocker, M.S. ([[User talk:Uploadvirus|talk]]) (talk) 21:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome, Dont worry about it all, I dont, when it all gets too much I just switch off and come back later. Yes its highly addictive this wikipedia editing ;) Panderoona (talk) 09:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Listed buildings

We have been adding refs to British Listed Buildings [1] which is a a private site. Perhaps this horse's mouth would be a better source [2] for us in future. Acabashi (talk) 13:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

oooh okay I dont mind how its done as long as we can find a way. Panderoona (talk) 18:54, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Wykeham, Lincolnshire

Hi again Panderoona. The problem with the Google map link/s is that it goes to a Google search whereby Google can identify your IP location and show your area ("East Wykeham near your location UK") with your useful local business links rather than to, in this case, Wykeham itself. Acabashi (talk) 14:59, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

BTW - it might be worth you starting archiving your talk - with a long page people get a bit bored with scrolling down to the bottom of a long page, and also for you it can be a bit of a bind to find comments that have been added further up the page in old additions - with archiving this will tend not to happen. Acabashi (talk) 15:20, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

thanks for the advice, I didnt realise Google maps would do that. Woops. Not that Im overly worried about people knowing my area really, its just not really relevant to the subject as Im not in Lincs. Been with bambino all day which is why Im a bit late replying, I love it! Panderoona (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Bilsby

Hi again,

In Bilsby#Railway when you say "Thurlby would have been an important junction", do you mean "Thurlby was an important junction" (because so-and-so happened), or "Thurlby might have become an important junction" (but so-and-so didn't happen)? I've been ruminating over this for a while as to the sense given the rest of the para. You are crashing along with these articles. We need to get a life I think - I was up till six again yesterday :) Acabashi (talk) 22:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

By way of something else - you may have seen this - its looks like I've got to go through my articles again to check post towns - will it never end:

List of postcode districts in the United Kingdom Acabashi (talk) 00:45, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

regarding post towns, I use Gridreferencefinder to come up with the postcodes and thus far for Lin have come up against LN (Lincoln area) NG (Grantham/Sleaford way) DN (North) PE (Boston way) if its any help Panderoona (talk) 02:01, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Not sure as this was an early edit - but think left phrasing of the railway part of the article more or less as it was previously. Not sure at all personally how important it was as a station - my only local knowledge of the railways was Firsby Junction where my mum was born and that WAS in its day an important junction. Panderoona (talk) 01:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Dad was born at Brothertoft, Mum at Firsby station where her dad was stationary engineman. Mum moved to Boston, which is how they ended up meeting, as its the closest town to Boston. My ancestors lived at Bilsby, the photo of the church is taken from the churchyard path and just behind where it was taken is the gravestones of my 3xgt grandparents. They lived at Thurlbly in Bilsby, which is where Mumby Road Station was. But I dont know much abt the railway, although my brother would. He is aware of my latest wikihobby and is considering signing up but wants to spend summertime in the "real world" (whatever that is) and sees editing as a possible winter-hobby. Other places with Family History connections include Alford, Maltby Le Marsh, Hogsthorpe, Huttoft, Little London, Thistleton, Maxey and Duddington (Nthants), Heacham (Nfk) Louth, Langrick Brothertoft, Kirton Holme, Addlethorpe, Winthorpe, both of which have roads named after ancestors, the former has Hydes' Lane, the latter has Merrill way, Radford Notts, Bourne, Witham On The Hill, Legbourne, Little Cawthorpe, and my mothers mothers side were gypsies born all over the place so can mention many more! Panderoona (talk) 01:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Places connected to the family Ive not even started on include Ingoldisthorpe (Nfk) West Winch, Outwell, Upwell, Burwell, Gedney (Lin), and many more - can't name everywhere as esp with the Gypsy side theres simply too many to mention. But my olds were deffo in love with the fens, and Norfolk/Lincs/Notts. Bro lives in Kimberley, which is fantastic place but again not started on it. So when Lincs articles have been created and then gone as far as I can take them, surrounding counties will become involved. Panderoona (talk) 02:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Brackenborough

I've been looking at some of the very small places added in the Lincolnshire list, this one being an extreme example. It's difficult to justify an article on these - perhaps what can be found on such could be grouped within the articles of relevant civil parishes. Brackenborough has nothing except for a hall and a few fields; it might have been something previously, but I can't find out what. Calls to mind how Metternich used to dismiss Italy: "It's not a country; it's a geographic expression". But in Brackenborough's case it seems it is just a geographic expression of an area of land, with no history I can find that would even warrant much more than a sentence. Acabashi (talk) 23:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I was going to redirect the places I couldnt find much on to civil parishes, had to take a rest tho as got a headache, Im only popping on briefly now, will have a go at it tomorrow :) Panderoona (talk) 00:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

This is yet another of those "multiple placenames in one county" situations which seem to be so common to Lincs. Did your Lincolnshire forebears not have much of an imagination, or what? <g> Anyway, here's a selection of results: most will be for the fuller article that you created recently but there may be something for t'other place. There is also shedload of possible references in full view at hathitrust.

Domesday Book

photos, esp gallery links near bottom

listed building

proposed holiday park

another photo

there is a book out there, somewhere - Further Reading section

DEFRA

deserted village

Lost Villages

Vision of Britain

Inquisitions and post mortem

passing reference, at least, at JSTOR - try WP:RX

mentions rent collection at Brack., assuming it is the same place

definitely mentioned, but finding the right volume might be a problem

And it appears to possibly have a post office! Quite a rarity nowadays. <g> - Sitush (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC}

SOMETIMES I think they had far more knowledge and imagination than we will ever ever know or undersstand. My wish was (originally) to put online something that might otherwise have been lost, and its still my goal within the limits of Wikipedia to do that - and I try to. On a purely personal level, Id be back home tomorrow, but I cannot do that as I would be leaving mum n dad down here. So I remain. I do not much care about the outcome of research, only that it is accurate and recorded before it is lost forever. That is why I am here. :) Panderoona (talk) 20:18, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I know it's been said before

But just to pass on thanks for your continuing work on Lincolnshire. For some reason the county has been ill-served in Wikipedia until now. Keep it up! S a g a C i t y (talk) 09:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Hiya = thanks for your thanks ;) Ive seen you knocking about on Lincolnshire articles - slowly working my way through them, trust me to pick the 2nd largest county in England to work on hahaha. Panderoona (talk) 09:16, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Cabourne

I've corrected and added a little here. It's telling that sometimes you can't believe official "trustworthy" sources like English Heritage ! All Lincs "A"s have infoboxes now and been given the once-over.

It's interesting how we interpret web ref cites differently - I do them as is done with articles - using the heading shown within the appropriate page as the blue link and "inside inverted commas", then add the web site or organisation outside and next, and if it's a web publication putting that in italics. I hope I'm right or there's a lot of re-writing for me to do. Refs is one area that attracts a mish-mash of styles, or no style at all.

What we do do I think is to reserve italics for publications (or ships) - I've seen them for pubs, streets and buildings. I think italics are also used within the body text when a particular word needs stressing or separating, such as "In Domesday, Bogusville is written as Bogichou". We could use inverted commas "Bogichou" I suppose, if we interpret it as a quote. Acabashi (talk) 12:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Hiya, yes I think everyone has their own style, and preference, Im still developing mine, looking back over some of the older ones Ive done, Ive found Ive changed the way I write. I guess its something that happens over time. I agree about the italics - they get used an awful lot, and some of the edits Ive done on pages written by others you get the old bull and bush pub in smith street. Which is almost unreadable, I feel. So Ive edited out the italics for the street, whilst leaving the pub name. I didnt mind that, nor the italics for the name as written in Domesday, but overuse of it certainly lends nothing to the article. Ive seen spelling mistakes and even a reference to Domesday being in 1068 in the more reputable sources, so nothing is infallible, as its still written by human hands. Panderoona (talk) 17:16, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Here is what WP accepts is to be italicised: WP:ITALIC - it's quite limited. Buildings, places, streets are not italicised, just creative works, ships etc, and for stress - we have a lot of that. I stopped adding listed building cats in places as I didn't know if that was kosher as a village isn't a building, and it does clutter up the cat page - I didn't want to find it was wrong and have to go back over the lot. Acabashi (talk) 18:43, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

ARGH Ive been goin thru old edits - I see your point and mostly when there is a blue link to an article about the actual place I left it alone - and just "the place" counts. But theres not enough about half of them to warrent a page of their own, so I was adding to those little articles. hmmm. Italics yeah thats fine, happy to go with the rules in future. Panderoona (talk) 18:57, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

More villages

Thankyou for the links you left me on my talk page, I have created North Willingham, Waithe and Snarford and left some external links. Brattleby 36 (talk) 12:54, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

extraordinary.Panderoona (talk) 21:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Middle Rasen

Hi Panderoona, I see that "consolidated" is blue-linked in this one. It needs disambigging but I can't see to what. The above is interesting. Usually newbies start with mini-minor edits until they find their feet, or enthusiastically try their hand at a big job and make major good faith mistakes. If you find someone who's pretty proficient or even half proficient in their first few edits it can be a bit telling. Acabashi (talk) 23:56, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

see what you mean - I changed the wording ;) Panderoona (talk) 05:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Consolidated (un-blue-linked) was fine, or conjoined, or amalgamated, or combined. I find this site rather useful to have in my bookmarks - sometimes we can get stuck for a word or phrase, especially when it looks like a particular word might be clumsily repeated in the same sentence. I have changed the comma in the sentence to a semi-colon - two clauses that are closely related to, and reliant on, each other within a sentence, and not joined with conjunction (and/with etc), but read as two separate sentences, can be glued with a semi-colon. Apologies if this is grandmother and sucking eggs. I love the semi-colon; it can really sharpen up a sentence :)

Just been looking at your Manton, North Lincolnshire, a place I am very interested in. My mother lived there (on the only farm) just after the first World War; her father was the farm garthman. Still have relatives in nearby Kirton Lindsey. I have photos somewhere of the ruined farm cottages that I might dig out and put up. Acabashi (talk) 10:58, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the lesson - I have forgotten an awful lot of English although I did get good grades in the subject at school. Im glad you liked the Manton piece. Ive found myself feeling quite sad about all the redundant churches. They were historically the focus of the village, and often extremely beautiful, and it seems sad that so many are now neglected (see Market Stainton). It makes me relieved when someone has bought them, even if that involves conversion and privacy, at least it actually survives. Sounds to me like a good plan to put up some old images :) Panderoona (talk) 12:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Did you see this on BBC a week ago: St Thomas a Becket church - you've got to get through the first 3 mins of "get-on-with-it" intro, but the result is amazing. Acabashi (talk) 14:18, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Indeed I did see that programme, and as you say the result was stunning. Hmm I forgot that when I wrote about Market Stainton I didnt include the info I found here as its a blog - but I must confess, after seeing the Thomas a Becket church programme, I went on a bit of a daydream about winning the lottery and doing Market Stainton up ;) Panderoona (talk) 14:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Just done North Coates, can't seem to find much regarding the dangerous marshes round the North Coates/Marshchapel area. I know for a fact several people within my memory have drowned walking out there, and also know 3 members of my family drowned there in 1959. However can't seem to find much in way of citation for that. Kind of think its and important point to note tho. Also, would like to archive this but have seen theres several ways of doing that, and am unsure what the right way to go is. Something similar to yours would be good. Can I keep the bit about Brothertoft "Did You Know" entry ? many thanks. Panderoona (talk) 20:10, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Lincolnshire

I notice you haven't added your name to the project list of members - it needs a bit of a boost so why not add? Can't stand the page - horrid colours :) Acabashi (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

didnt think about it.... yes I agree!! a bit too vibrant isnt it! Panderoona (talk) 09:18, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

East and West Firsby

I've changed the coords on this one and added-in some stuff, if you want to double-check it. Soon be on to "F" - there's some right old long-standing nonsense on some of these articles. Acabashi (talk) 15:27, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Acabashi - glad to hear you are still trawling through - I know what you mean, I find it rather puts me off copyediting, not confident enough yet with all that, especially the longer articles. You look at it and wonder where on earth to start. I have, as Im sure you noticed, begun to work my way through the S's Panderoona (talk) 15:59, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you could do the uncontentious stuff like info boxes with added pics. If you come across church brasses you could dissambig blue link them : brass. If there are long sentences or paras that don't have any refs you could legitimately add a or , unless it's a raw geographical fact which could be accepted as good faith. When you come across editorialising phrases like "it is thought" or "villagers believe", you could add or - I've just done this on Saltfleet which you are coming to, where you could also remove the "quiet" in "surrounded by quiet countryside" if there's no ref supporting it - who exactly says it's quiet. Phrases there like "steeped in history" and "as indeed have" are conversational blather. Enjoy :) Acabashi (talk) 16:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes Ive begun to get the hang of weasels and adverts and suchlike waffle, just dont want to get too carried away and go too far the other way ;) I have been sidetracked after noticing that theres no article on Drinsey Nook so Im going to have a go at that and Hardwick next - assuming I can find enough on them anyway. Im aware of an old ghost story regarding Tom Otter at Drinsey Nook so am hoping to work that old tale in. Panderoona (talk) 17:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I know another story about Tom Otter of Drinsey Nook, apparently some of my gypsy ancestors, the Smiths, had one of their children under the gibbet post some years later, and they called him Tom after (the man they called) Tom o' the Gibbet. The story that Tom haunted the area is well enough known in those parts, although I personally am not a believer in such things. Panderoona (talk) 18:59, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I do believe in such things, though not having experienced such myself, although there was one occasion years ago that I realised was very strange only three years ago. Whatever apparitions are there can be no doubt that people experience something - too much anecdotal evidence - I'm sounding like an astrology believer now :) I've just been working on East Halton which triggered memories. I travelled to Baysgarth Farm some years ago for genealogical and I suppose slightly morbid reasons. My dad was billeted there with my mum during the war, and a number of strange happenings and appearances were experienced by those at and around the farm separately and together. My mother remained a sceptic despite what she and others openly saw. It was the war and there was an obvious heightening of senses, which may explain something. The sightings of "ghosts", whatever that experience may amount to, increased during the war. Acabashi (talk) 21:35, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

What a lovely looking farm! Youll probably chuckle at this, whilst I dont generally believe in ghosts, you wouldnt find me braving it out in a churchyard at night - or walking down by Tom Otters bridge... I agree people do experience something, but what that something acutally is I really wouldnt like to guess. Panderoona (talk) 05:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Harrowby, Lincolnshire

This is a tricky one. I was going to attempt an article here but have been ruminating over how to tackle it with clarity. As you say, the old Harrowby Within is part of Grantham (my home town), in fact an urban suburb of Grantham. I experience this because it is within 5 mins walk of my house that I still keep up there. Harrowby Within is even more of an area enclosed by urban Grantham than Manthorpe, Grantham. The old Harrowby Without, now Londonthorpe and Harrowby parish, is distinct even though it takes in part of the very east of urban Grantham, because Harrowby Without's major eastern-most parts are separated from its western Grantham urban part by much more arable and scrub distance than is Manthorpe - it is geography at variance with parish. The same problem arises with Spittlegate (previously Spitalgate) an urban area even more intimately and historically tied to Grantham, with no noticeable separation from Grantham since the 19th century, when it was separated from Grantham by St Peter's Hill - a common that was later urban in-built, particularly with the town hall. If an article is written for Spittlegate (red-linked in the list) it would be best seen as part of Grantham and its article, as I believe should Harrowby Within. The other problem arising from geography versus parish is that the only "village" within Londonthorpe and Harrowby parish, indeed in Harrowby Within or Without is Londonthorpe. Harrowby village hasn't effectively existed since times of yore (there's a good WP term for you to use). So Harrowby is not a village of two parts. Harrowby village was centred around Harrowby Hall and now, aside from the hall, is just one or two farm buildings and a micro brewery - it's at best a hamlet today, with one resident, at the hall in Londonthorpe and Harrowby parish. I hope this is confusing :)

You might add Genuki to the article I suppose: [3]. I only add Genuki as an external link now since seeing discussion about it. Because it has copyrighted stuff, and can be added to by people Wiki style, and has very little in the way of cited references, it can be seen as not entirely reliable. It's like British Listed Buildings, which is a second generation copy from English Heritage National Heritage List for England, a reliable primary, and in places secondary, source. In other words, BLB is a tertiary source like Wikipedia where others can edit, here and add to a forum, making it perhaps good faith, but not 100% reliable. Acabashi (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I should edit it for a start with the term "was" a village in two parts rather than is... and cite it as a small hamlet now? I must admit I wasnt expecting it to be quite so complicated when I first added it to the list. Being a bit more of a Bostonian, I am only familiar with Grantham railway station. I have a problem with the National Heritage list only because my PC is very old and slow, and the maps at the bottom of each page are, I think slowing - then stalling, my pc. I do try to use it but sometimes I have to admit to giving up. Ive been going through doing less of the editing stuff, and more adding images and info boxes, as I suspect youve noticed. Panderoona (talk) 20:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I suspect there are a few more like this and it's only a little local knowledge that indicates a prob. I'm not sure that it was ever "was" a village in 2 parts - a parish in 2 parts maybe - The village, when it was a proper village was in one of those 2 parish parts I suppose, and now is just a few square yards in area.

Harrowby, a village previously in Harrowby parish (if there was one), then in Harrowby Without when the parish was split into Within and Without, now in Londonthorpe and Harrowby Parish - but at what point it ceased to be a viable village who knows? I was at Harrowby Hall (centre of the old village) last time I was there. I'm going back up on Wednesday so I might knock at the door of the Hall if I feel brave enough, and see if I can gleen any more info.

What I do with the National Heritage List is to go to British Listed Buildings first, which is a much more user-friendly site, through this as a browser bookmark, and copy the "English Heritage Building ID: (number)" for the building, and then go to bookmark National Heritage List "Advanced Search" / "Reference Number" and put the number in "Old record number", and hey presto - then add the link in the article through a pro-forma saved in a word doc - quicker than it sounds. But of course it won't be too clever if, as you say, the site is a pig because of your computer.

Just a point of clarification in Eastville, Lincolnshire: was it the Eastville extra-parochial allotment that was drained, or the complete East Fen itself ? Looking forward to my day off from WP. Best wishes. Acabashi (talk) 22:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

more to add but as a quickie - Eastville - it was East, West and Wildmore Fens, they was all drained together, the last areas to be drained. 01:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Hough-on-the-Hill

Nice additions on this one. You don't have to be nice and keep my own church image if you feel the new one is better :) I notice that the body text rides over the Schoolhouse image - this I've seen in other articles but I don't for the life of me know why this happens - nothing in the edit window gives me any indication of the problem. I have other images of the village that I took when I was up there recently and might replace my church with one of them. I have reduced the infobox image - I find that a full 240px 480x640 portrait in the box can force the box way down the page - if it's a longish article it's not too much of a problem, but on a short one it can require readers to over-scroll down into blank space to get to the box information. Didn't have enough time to get to Harrowby this time - too long in the Magistrate's Court - me not the defendant by the way :) - but I'm back up for the weekend, so I'll try then. Acabashi (talk) 02:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Hiya - I didnt notice it was your pic! I kept it as a view of the village. Adding infoboxes and images, I got a bit bored with just churches all the time. A view of the village itself adds something. You probably guessed I changed the infobox image to show off the unusual staircase. Must be some difference in our settings or something as I have not seen text riding over images. That could prove to be a problem if other people see that, and I cant, as I wont know its happening. No problem with changing the image size, makes sense. Happy birthday to me by the way lol ;) Panderoona (talk) 09:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I suppose, as you say, the text-over-pic thing could be a browser problem. Happy birthday to you - I see you are Leo with a spatter of Cancer - you should check out our wonderful WP astrology articles to see what that means :) By the way don't let anybody sing "Happy Birthday to You" with the windows open - that would be public performance of a song still in copyright - unbelievable but true. I'm sure all the church stuff and images that we put in the articles could make us look like enthusiastic Christians, but the best pics, and much historical reference, seem to apply to churches. I might change the Hough body pics, with a couple of additions, into a gallery.

I'm sure Pastscape has got it wrong for the priory. After 1536 Suppression it could hardly have been given to the Roman Catholic Carthusian order of Mountgrace - Cox ( and Hough Priory article) states that Mountgrace received it and its income in 1432 after wars with France, quite common for English abbeys and priories about this time - we didn't want money continuing to go to France. Acabashi (talk) 11:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I might be a Leo, I was also born in the year of the snake I dont know what that means either... LOL. Im not too well up on medieval history and the priories and suchlike. There might be something on it at British History online I might have a look. Panderoona (talk) 19:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I had a look at British History Online and that Hough Priory article is a word for word copy :/ I thought we were not suposed to do that? anyway, Just thought Id let you know. I have changed the text in the Hough on the Hill article including citation that it was granted to Mountgrace in 1432.Panderoona (talk) 20:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Firsby Article - I just noticed that it says that "several hundred" people worked at or out of Firsby Station and you added a citation tag - Hmm Now Im not an expert by any means, but Im sure thats innaccurate - my mum was born and lived on the station in the 1930s and whilst Firsby was a notable junction in its day, Im fairly sure it was not THAT big. I shall ask her when I see her, and I might even ring my railway enthusiast brother... Panderoona (talk) 20:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

An editor added the Hough Priory text in Dec. 2010 as a supposed public domain source. Lazy yes, but it could be OK - not entirely sure - at least when I use Cox or Kelly's I precis and rephrase - I'm sure you do the same thing. If you are interested in copyvio and other nonsense, here is a good place to find it - it's good for sharpening your WP brain using Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion. I find it a little light relief over there - there is some really outrageously entertaining baloney that comes up, but you've got to be fast to compete with the other WP editor sharks waiting to pounce :)

As for Firsby, largely a 3 year old uncited piece of original research I think, you could ask the "several hundred" adding editor (see dif) for a source. Ultimately if something can't be sourced (by us or the adding editor), or can't be readily found like geo stuff, it has to be removed - my view anyway. Acabashi (talk) 01:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

argh!!! I was with mum all afternoon and completely forgot to ask!! doh! Hows it going? I have been busy doing infoboxes and images have reached L. :) Hope its helping. Panderoona (talk) 20:25, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh well - next time - nothing is desperately immediate in the sleepy old world of Lincs villages, unlike the edgy circus of bands and new pages :) I noticed the helpful info boxes and I'm just slipping in the odd postal town. Just had a massive edit on Folkingham which was in a right old state - I prefer the hamlets. Still haven't got back up north - perhaps tomorrow if the garden clearance boys or window fitters turn up - you'll know if I've gone - I'll be off Wikipedia for five hours :) Acabashi (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes I figured if I did the infoboxes/images, it would let you concentrate on sorting out the "right old states", which is generally the bit Im not too comfy with. Rang mam, she doesnt believe "several thousand" worked out of Firsby, but the figure was probably quite high, with all the connections the place had. I have realised that little passage is a direct quote from Disused Stations website. Panderoona (talk) 08:47, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Frodingham, Lincolnshire

I can't find any info that this one is a civil parish, and its not in the List of civil parishes in Lincolnshire. Do you know something we don't ? :) Acabashi (talk) 13:59, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

OOOOhhh I think I mightve made a boo-boo there!! sorry!! Panderoona (talk) 15:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Frodingham was the major player in the past, its parish holding other little local villages like Scunthorpe, Crosby, and Bumby. But Scunthorpe blossomed (or spread like a rash depending on your point of view) and swallowed-up the others into its own urban borough with no civil parishes.

I've added a comment on Keiths talk page that you might find interesting as I wanted to clarify the use of Genuki - I don't want to go back over tens of articles with corrections :) Acabashi (talk) 19:32, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

had a chuckle at your comment regarding Scunny ;) - anyway back to business - GENUKI - if I can find it somewhere else, I always use the somewhere else. The one exception is when a church is redundant - often GENUKI gives a date, and most other sources I can find generally dont, so if I cant find it elsewhere, I use it. But its not generally my primary source of info. Panderoona (talk) 20:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Aby with Greenfield - careful with words like allegedy - it implies someone is lying or someone's personal point of view :) Pastscape says "nor is there local knowledge or tradition of a village and church" but this was a investigator's comment in 1964 - If questions were asked of the locals 400 years later, unlikely that any would have memories. However, obviously White knew about Greenfield in 1872, and Kelly's definitely reported it extant in 1885. And dear old GENUKI seems confident. Acabashi (talk) 15:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

thanks for the nod, the original text didnt actually say "allegedly" that was my addition based on what was said later, as Im sure you noticed. Sometimes its tricky to get it right!! Panderoona (talk) 18:01, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Low Fulney - Your major deletion here was justified. It probably wasn't original research though, more like a copy and paste copy vio, though I can't find from where. Any mass of text that is tightly structured and well-written like this, with no blue links, is always a copy vio suspect. I'm sure the stuff on Fulbeck Hall is the same, but again I can't find it. I bet it's from some blurb handed out by the hall - when I'm up there to take a pic of the hall I'll drop in and see what printed stuff they have.Acabashi (talk) 17:00, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan. I have several of those types of booklets for Lincs places (and elsewhere) but not that one. Panderoona (talk) 18:01, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Morton by Gainsborough. Added Pre-Raphaelite stuff - quite significant for the church, and blue-linked Bacon, the top Baronet of the realm at that time. Sent an email. Acabashi (talk) 11:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks - looking good :) Panderoona (talk) 11:50, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Kkumar123

Hi thanks, I wish to learn in detail how to edit or upload the document, I have an interesting topic -unsigned comment from: User:Kkumar123, 3rd August 2011 moved from top of page by Panderoona (talk) 11:49, 4 August 2011 (UTC)