Helsabott
She vs. He/my talk page edit
Switching "he or she" to "she or he" does not remove gender bias...it's a neutral change since you're still favoring one gender over another. Rewording the sentence is a much more effective way to address the situation. If stressing usage of gender-neutral pronouns is favored over using gender-specific, the changes you had made were not constructive in your attempt to address the situation. Sottolacqua (talk) 02:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for responding to my comments. The only other neutral option would be to change the pair to "they", which as evidenced in numerous places on Wikipedia is not a universally accepted substitute. It would have been too awkward and reduced the clarity of the articles I edited to rearrange them such that pronouns became unnecessary, so that also was not an option. If you view "he or she" as being gender neutral, why don't you consider "she or he" equally neutral? It's not favoritism; if anything, the prevalence of "he" coming first on Wikipedia and elsewhere is the favoritism that should be addressed. I don't see how trying to even out which pronoun comes first is not constructive, since if we placed both pronouns first at an equal rate their order would be of no note and this would be a non-issue. The only real solution is to use gender-neutral pronouns, but since most readers are not familiar with them, such words are not yet a viable solution. Helsabott (talk) 03:00, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't view he or she as gender neutral. From your edits here, my talk page and on the MOS talk page your goal seems to be to remove gender bias, but the edits you made don't do that...they just move the emphasis from the male pronoun to the female pronoun. Your first edits did not match the example presented in Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language that had set a precedent to use "he or she." Since you were a new editor and your edits did not include an edit summary that could have provided additional insight to your reasoning, I undid them and sent you warnings. Since I now understand what you're trying to do I'm not going to undo your edits. However, if your goal is to remove the bias, swapping the two genders doesn't achieve that. Sottolacqua (talk) 03:08, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Since as you pointed out I'm a new editor, I misunderstood what constitutes a minor edit and what a summary can be used for; it now makes more sense why you reverted the edits. I agree that pairing of any order isn't inherently gender-neutral, but because the only truly neutral solution is to use Spivak or other invented pronouns with which most English speakers/WP readers are unfamiliar, switching the pronouns at least begins to even things out. I disagree that it's no more or less biased than placing the male pronoun first, but since we are not having a philosophical discussion, I am satisfied with what we've established. Again, thanks for responding. Helsabott (talk) 03:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't view he or she as gender neutral. From your edits here, my talk page and on the MOS talk page your goal seems to be to remove gender bias, but the edits you made don't do that...they just move the emphasis from the male pronoun to the female pronoun. Your first edits did not match the example presented in Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language that had set a precedent to use "he or she." Since you were a new editor and your edits did not include an edit summary that could have provided additional insight to your reasoning, I undid them and sent you warnings. Since I now understand what you're trying to do I'm not going to undo your edits. However, if your goal is to remove the bias, swapping the two genders doesn't achieve that. Sottolacqua (talk) 03:08, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Gendered pronouns edit
Hello Helsabott! I have replied to your question at Wikipedia talk:Gender-neutral language#She before he.3F. Hope that is helpful! Kaldari (talk) 00:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- By the way, in case you're interested in gender or feminism related topics, you should check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Feminism and Wikipedia:WikiProject Gender Studies. Kaldari (talk) 02:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you! I am interested in that sort of thing. I've been particularly glad to see several recent articles addressing how Wikipedia's low percentage of female contributors has left the encyclopedia lacking in comprehensive articles related to traditionally feminine things. I hope to start contributing more significantly to articles and even start some of my own soon! Helsabott (talk) 02:51, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
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