H. Humbert

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A barnstar for you!

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December 2015

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DYK for Karakhan Manifesto

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Sorry

Hi H. Humbert. I just wanted to apologize for calling your comment "disingenuous" in my last post. That was definitely the wrong word and I blame it on a lack of coffee. I've had my morning cuppa now and I've reworded it to "misleading" (and obviously I don't mean intentionally misleading). Sorry again and thanks for ignoring my rude word choice. -Thibbs (talk) 13:42, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

As the Aussies say, no worries. H. Humbert (talk) 22:23, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

January 2016

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"Han-Viet" and "Sino-Vietnamese"

Don't ask me anything, English isn't my first language. My English is poor.

695345702 The term "Hán" refers to Classical Chinese, which was used officially in Vietnam until 1918

It's wrong.

The Vietnamese terms "từ Hán Việt" and "âm Hán Việt" are from the Chinese terms 漢越語 (lit. Sino-Vietnamese). The term 漢越語 is created by the Chinese linguist Wang Li (Sino-Vietnamese reading: Vương Lực) in 1948:

• Correspondence between initial sounds in ancient Sino-Vietnamese words in Viet and Muong languagesin Viet and Muong languages
• Cần đổi tên các loại “Hán Việt”: Cả ba khái niệm “Hán Việt”, “Cổ Hán Việt” và “Hán Việt Việt hóa” tuy là do Vương Lực đề ra... (created by Wang Li). Ancessit (talk) 10:11, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Ancessit (talk) 10:11, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

The article you cite doesn't claim that Vương Lực coined the word "Han Viet." It says he, "divided them into three word classes." I talked to more than one Vietnamese about this. They told me that Classical Chinese is called chữ Hán and that modern Chinese is chữ Trung Quốc. If you notice, I didn't try to restore this part. That's not because I don't think it is true. It's because I worry that it might considered trivia.

No published English-language material on Vietnam puts Chinese characters all over the place the way Wikipedia does. We need to limit it somehow. H. Humbert (talk) 11:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Who are Vietnamese that you have asked? Are they Overseas Vietnamese or Vietnam's Vietnamese? Are they the scholars in this field? Where do they get that information? Wikipedia?

Also is Vietnamese but other one said: Before 20th century, Vietnamese intellectual people don't called chữ Hán in chữ Hán that just call it in văn tự (文字 characters) or chữ (characters) (Bảo tồn văn tự Hán Nôm: Hai sai lầm về nhận thức: trước thế kỷ XX, giới trí thức Việt Nam không gọi chữ Hán là chữ Hán theo nghĩa chữ của người Hán, mà chỉ gọi là văn tự, là chữ)

The truth is the term chữ Hán refers to Chinese characters in both ancient and modern time. http://blogtiengtrung.com/hoc-ve-cau-tao-chu-han/ It is a synonym for the word chữ Trung Quốc and chữ Trung Quốc is not a very common name than chữ Hán.

Why you said “puts Chinese characters all over the place”? I just added the Chinese characters (also is chữ Nôm characters) for titles of the article that refers to Chinese and chữ Nôm characters itself or for indicated the origin of the terms.

You can not distinguish the Chinese characters and chữ Nôm characters? You think all Chinese characters are not chữ Nôm characters and all chữ Nôm characters are not Chinese characters? If you think so, it is inaccurate.

Nguyễn Khuê, a Vietnamese authority in Chinese and chữ Nôm characters, said: However a Chinese character are which pronounced and what meaning, when it used to writen a Vietnamese word (both Sino-Vietnamese and non-Sino-Vietnamese words) it also is chữ Nôm characters, it is the same this character but when it used to writen a Chinese word it only is Chinese character, not chữ Nôm character.

It is difficult to talk when I do not have enough vocabulary and grammar. You should see:

• Wang Li 1948: 漢越語研究: 漢越語 (Sino-Vietnamese) = 古漢越語 (Old Sino-Vietnamese) + 漢越語 (Sino-Vietnamese) + 漢語越化 (Vietnamized Chinese)
• Cần đổi tên các loại “Hán Việt”:
  • The three terms Sino-Vietnamese, Old Sino-Vietnamese, and Vietnamized Sino-Vietnamese are created by Wang Li but Wang Li don't used Vietnamized Sino-Vietnamese, he used Vietnamized Chinese (Cả ba khái niệm “Hán Việt”, “Cổ Hán Việt” và “Hán Việt Việt hóa” tuy là do Vương Lực đề ra... cái tên cúng cơm của khái niệm thứ ba mà Vương Lực đã đặt ra thì lại là “Hán ngữ Việt hóa”).
  • The author of the article says Wang Li's classification contradicts itself, all Old Sino-Vietnamese, Sino-Vietnamese, and Vietnamized Chinese are Sino-Vietnamese, in Sino-Vietnamese has Sino-Vietnamese?: cách phân loại của Vương Lực còn phản luận lý ở chỗ cả “Hán Việt”, “Cổ Hán Việt” và “Hán Việt Việt hóa” đều là “Hán Việt” nhưng “Hán Việt” (của Vương Lực) lại giành lấy cái tên chung trong khi nó phải là một thứ “Hán Việt X” để cho ông ta có thể nói một cách thuận miệng rằng “Hán Việt” gồm có 3 loại: - 1. Hán Việt X, - 2. Cổ Hán Việt, - 3. Hán Việt Việt hóa. Ancessit (talk) 11:55, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for my English. It's not easy to people understand each other when languages is different. Ancessit (talk) 13:05, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

This isn't easy to read, you know. Let me ask you a question to try clarify matters. Suppose I walked into a bookstore in Vietnam and bought a copy of Hán Việt Từ Điển by Thiều Chửu (or perhaps a similar work by a modern author). This is a famous textbook, a book that every high school student had a copy of back in the 1960s. In fact, you still occasionally see people studying it nowadays. How would you describe its contents? Is it a dictionary of Classical Chinese? H. Humbert (talk) 06:44, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It is not clear on the question. Have you a print edition of that book? Why do you need me describe it? Ancessit (talk) 08:29, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

If you want to know more about the book, you can click the link I gave above. What I am getting is, What does the word "Han-Viet" mean in the title? H. Humbert (talk) 10:00, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

“Hán Việt” in “Hán Việt tự điển” is not a word that is two different words. “Hán” means Chinese, “Việt” means Vietnamese, the title Hán Việt tự điển means Chinese-Vietnamese Dictionary. (“Tự điển” 字典 is a sort of dictionary that definition of the Chinese characters and Chinese-like scripts as chữ Nôm. It seems there is no English word that means equal, for simple, i used the English word dictionary). The title Hán Việt tự điển of the book by Thiều Chửu itself does not tell readers know that book refers to what Chinese type. Preface and guide to the use of the book also does not tell what Chinese type the book refers to.

Chinese type in Hán Việt tự điển by Thiểu Chửu is Classical Chinese with some words and usage from modern time. If you never read or known the book, to know what Chinese type the book refers to, you must read the Chinese entries in this book. You also can guess the type of Chinese in the book from the preface of the book. The preface of the book contains suggestions for Chinese type of the book. In the preface, Thiểu Chửu said this book was written to support studying and to protect the traditional Confucian and Buddhism heritage. For this object, Chinese in the book is almost Classical Chinese.

Current, most of the Chinese-Vietnamese dictionaries published in Vietnam was focus on Modern Mandarin Chinese. The Chinese-Vietnamese dictionaries are usually named Từ điển Hán Việt 詞典漢越, Từ điển Trung Việt 詞典中越 and in Southern Vietnam also named Từ điển Hoa Việt 詞典華越. The specialized dictionaries for Classical Chinese is rare and most of them was written long time ago. Hán Việt tự điển by Thiểu Chửu is one of the few options for Vietnamese people who want to study Classical Chinese. Ancessit (talk) 14:04, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I can tell you that in a bookstore in Saigon a Từ điển Hoa Việt is a dictionary of modern Chinese, while a Hán Việt tự điển is a dictionary of Classical Chinese. I'd be very surprised if the terminology used in Hanoi was different. Thieu Chuu's dictionary was originally published in 1942.[1] There was also a Han Viet dictionary by Dao Duy Anh that was published in 1932.[2] So the phrase "Han-Viet" was well-established in Vietnamese before Wang Li's article. H. Humbert (talk) 12:10, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

“a Hán Việt tự điển is a dictionary of Classical Chinese”. It is wrong. See:

• Tự điển Hán Việt: Hán ngữ cổ đại và hiện đại Chinese-Vietnamese Dictionary (字典): Ancient and Modern Chinese
• Từ điển Hán Việt: Hán ngữ cổ đại và hiện đại Chinese-Vietnamese Dictionary (詞典): Ancient and Modern Chinese
• Từ Điển Hán Việt Việt Hán Chinese-Vietnamese Vietnamese-Chinese Dictionary
• Hướng dẫn sử dụng từ điển hán việt

“Sino-Vietnamese” in Vietnamese called “từ Hán Việt”, not “Hán Việt”. Sino-Vietnamese (từ Hán Việt) is a kind of vocabulary in Vietnamese. All Sino-Vietnamese words are Vietnamese words. The two words “Hán” and “Việt” in the name of the book “Hán Việt tự điển” refers to two different languages are Chinese and Vietnamese. “Hán Việt” in “Hán Việt tự điển” by Thiều Chửu and “Hán Việt từ điển giản yếu” (also called “Hán Việt từ điển”) by Đào Duy Anh are two words, not a word, they does not mean Sino-Vietnamese or Classical Chinese. Ancessit (talk) 12:54, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I see the problem now. You are talking about Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary, which is described in a different article. A Sino-Vietnamese reading is how a Vietnamese would write a Chinese name such as Mao Zedong or Zhou Enlai. You can do the conversion at this site. As there are various things that can be described as "Sino-Vietnamese," the terminology is unfortunately confusing. If you don't understand the difference, the least you can do is not copy stuff from SVV article to the SVR article. H. Humbert (talk) 13:30, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

The term Sino-Vietnamese reading is refers to the pronunciation of the Chinese characters/words in Vietnamese, not the spelling of Chinese names in the Vietnamese alphabet. Not any Chinese characters/words have Sino-Vietnamese reading but in theory, every Chinese characters/words can have Sino-Vietnamese reading. Not any Chinese characters/words has Sino-Vietnamese reading are borrowed in Vietnamese, there are the Sino-Vietnamese readings of the Chinese characters/words are not Sino-Vietnamese words, so the two terms Sino-Vietnamese (vocabulary) and Sino-Vietnamese reading (the pronunciation or reading) are not entirely equivalent. All the Sino-Vietnamese words also are the Sino-Vietnamese readings of the Chinese characters/words, so you can call the Vietnamese word “X” derived from the Chinese character/word “Y” (a Sino-Vietnamese word) is the Sino-Vietnamese reading of the Chinese character/word “Y”. Ancessit (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Cần đổi tên các loại “Hán Việt”: The term 漢越語 (Sino-Vietnamese reading: Hán Việt ngữ) used by Wang Li was word-for-word translation of the French term sino-annamite (sino- = 漢 Hán, annam = 越 Việt, the suffix -ite = 語 ngữ).

Some Vietnamese linguists think the word “ngữ” 語 (language) in the term “Hán Việt ngữ” 漢越語 is incorrect, the so-called Hán Việt ngữ is the words derived from Chinese in Vietnamese, Hán Việt ngữ is not a language other than Vietnamese, so they replaced the word “ngữ” in “Hán Việt ngữ” by the the word “từ” 詞 (word), Hán Việt ngữ (Sino-Vietnamese (language)) became từ Hán Việt (Sino-Vietnamese words). Ancessit (talk) 14:15, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Invitation from Wikipedia Asian Month 2016

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This account is a sockpuppet of a blocked user

Just wanted to clarify that !votes cast by this account are automatically discounted and should not be invoked in reassessments of those straw polls. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:13, 23 December 2016 (UTC)