Gort1958

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Bkissin (talk) 13:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

March 2024

Hello, I'm Doniago. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Jim Lovell, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. DonIago (talk) 05:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Doniago.

I’m wondering why contributors are required to provide references for statements of fact that can be easily deduced by referring to article links within the edits.

For instance, if I’d inserted a line that stated ‘Lovell’s favourite colour is pink’, I’d expect that I’d have to provide an external reference that supported that conclusion.

I note that the line before my contribution (regarding Frank Borman’s death) has a reference to a Wall Street Journal article that you can only read if you are a subscriber. Did it contain a statement referring to Jim Lovell as the new oldest surviving astronaut? I would doubt it, but who can tell?

For my contribution to be accepted, do I simply need to include an external reference to Stafford’s death, or do I have to search for an external article that specifically states that Lovell is the last surviving member of Group 2 (even though the table in the linked article listing group members shows Lovell as the only one without an entry under ‘Died’)?

Regards, Peter Gort1958 (talk) 08:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

You may want to review WP:SYNTH, but essentially we shouldn't be adding statements that haven't explicitly been made by sources. In other words, if one source states A and another source states B, we can't make statements that combine A + B. For instance, if one source discusses Stafford's death but not that it makes Lovell the last surviving member of Group 2, while another source merely lists the members of Group 2, we should not be making a statement that with Stafford's death Lovell is now the last surviving member of Group 2, because that would be us making an inference, however logical it might seem.

There's no requirement that sources be freely accessible per WP:PAYWALL, so as far as 'subscription-required' sources go, if there are concerns that they don't support the statements they're being used as a reference for, I would recommend raising those concerns at the appropriate article Talk page or following the options outlined at that link.

As far as your specific text goes, if you have a source that claims everything that you're adding then you just need to cite that source. Information from other articles shouldn't be considered for verifiability purposes, though sources from those articles may be useful as references, because the text and sources at those articles can change, as discussed at WP:CIRCULAR.

Hope this helps! Happy editing! DonIago (talk) 12:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

On that basis, I'll leave things as they are.

Rather than hunting the web for a confirming statement, I'll let readers deduce for themselves Lovell's ongoing status as the final living member of Group 2.

In closing, I must say that the acceptability of external web-based sources that are not freely available is questionable.

Regards. Gort1958 (talk) 01:28, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

If you have concerns about it, you're certainly welcome to raise them at the Talk page for WP:PAYWALL. I'm not sanguine about sources that I can't personally verify either...then again, there's a lot of sources that aren't freely available out there. DonIago (talk) 02:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC)