Dimashlar

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Beshogur (talk) 17:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Edit warring at Azerbaijani language

• WP:AN3#User:Dimashlar reported by User:Beshogur (Result: No violation)

Hello Dimashlar. The AN3 complaint about you has been closed by an administrator as No violation, on the grounds that the four reverts were not within 24 hours and that neither of you has tried using WP:DR. Even so, I don't think that the slow war will be allowed to continue. You are relatively new and may not be familiar with Wikipedia's sourcing standards. If either of you reverts again at Azerbaijani language without getting a prior consensus in your favor on the talk page, admins may feel compelled to take action. Use the talk page to get agreement on the subject of the vowels in the Azerbaijani language. A topic like this one would surely be covered in printed books, or in professional publications. Blogs are usually considered inadequate unless they are written by someone who is a recognized expert. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 16:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Ed, :User:EdJohnston

Thank you for reaching out. I would like to inform you the user Beshogur has already gone ahead and reverted the talk page without gaining prior consensus from other users in the talk page. He has made a post simply dismissing a previous comment in the talk page but no consensus has been reached by anyone. Although I will respond to his statement in the talk page, please advise on how to proceed otherwise. I have sourced my edit quite well, whereas he has continuously reverted to a completely unsourced statement. When I asked him for sources he responded by reporting me to the admins.

To offer some clarification, although I did post a blog post in the talk page, the actual edit on the article was well sourced with primary sources (news articles and news websites by both the Turkish government, as well as privately owned Azerbaijani news sites written in the language in question).

Dimashlar (talk) 15:43, 15 October 2021 (UTC)Dimashlar

If you are reasoning about how the alphabet works just from looking over some articles published in that script, that probably counts as WP:SYNTHESIS and is not acceptable for Wikipedia use. Such a very basic statement about the language (how to represent vowels) you would expect to be documented in good sources. In fact, it would be surprising if no English language sources would have covered the question of vowel representation. EdJohnston (talk) 16:23, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

It is not just these two websites, all of the Southern Azerbaijani wikipedia is written in this same standard of writing. This is not my reasoning. This has been discussed and taught to students by Iranian (for clarification, Southern Azerbaijani is only written and spoken in Iran, not the Republic of Azerbaijan) academics in video lecture series that have been posted online by Dr. Seyyed Mostafa Kalami Haris (which I included in my source) . For minority Iranian languages, there is a wealth of academic material regarding these languages in the Persian language, but not in English. I would like some clarification in your eyes on what sources are good enough, because this is not a language or writing system that is well documented in English, almost all of it's resources are in either Persian or Southern Azerbaijani itself. It is my view that it is unproductive to discount or delete certain facts because of poor English language scholarship on the matter when these phenomenon are plainly stated and sourced in other languages. I even have the original document written by the person who effectively standardized the script . This is Dr. Javad Heyat's original work detailing how the script works and showing the correspondence tables where unique vowel symbols correspond to their latin equivilents (although the work itself is in Southern Azerbaijani). He has been recognized as an "expert in Turkic matters" in the book The Origins of the Protest Movement Against Ethnic Hierarchy: The Azerbaijani Cause in Iranwritten by Gilles Riaux; Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0190934682. This is Javad Heyat's Wikipedia article where you can see more of his credentials outlined. "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javad_Heyat#CITEREFRiaux2018". I don't know what more lengths to go to to demonstrate that this is a real and valid statement/edit/phenomenon. The User:beshoghur has not only did not wait for any talk page consensus, but he has not done anything to source his statements and deletes mine which demonstrate real world usage of the script by world governments. If there is no penalty associated with an edit on the article on this particular topic, I would be happy to add an edit discussing Javad Heyat's own statements.

References

This discussion should probably continue at Talk:Azerbaijani language. The closest so far to a real source might be the 'azturk_standard.pdf' document that you have mentioned, but this is a proposal by Javad Heyat himself. How do we know if Javad Heyat's idea is actually used by the people in Iran who write Azerbaijani in the Perso-Arabic script? Is there an independent secondary source which discusses the vowels? EdJohnston (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure there is, but if you look at the Southern Azerbaijan wikipedia https://azb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%B1%DA%A9%D8%AC%D9%87 or the Araz News website or the Website of the State Broadcaster of Turkey. I linked, and ctrl+f the vowels that are in the guide (I've listed them here) " ۆ یٛ ؤ ئ وْ" they will all return in the words in the article. I understand synthesis is technically not allowed, but this is literally verifiable phenomenon that requires no special academic credentials to observe. The entirety of Southern Azerbaijani Wikipedia is written with these vowels https://azb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%B1%DA%A9%D8%AC%D9%87. I can link an endless list of Websites, blogs , message boards, youtube videos, government websites and etc. that write using these symbols.

What about Azerbaijani dictionaries written in Perso-Arabic script? Before 1929 they would have been the *only* Azeri dictionaries, right? Did they have script for the vowels? If there are *new* Perso-Arabic Azeri dictionaries that do include vowels, can you link to any? EdJohnston (talk) 17:48, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Ed, I wanted to thank you for your gracious help. I wanted to know where as a new user I could learn more about dispute resolution mechanisms. Several veteran editors are perching above the article and reverting the well sourced edit I made because of political motivations (accusing certain sources of political ideologies when simple linguistic matters are being discussed) and I would like to know how I can move this issue forward.

Thank you! Yes, There are dictionaries. I will link them. ISBN: 978-600-94330-3-2 Publisher: Riva

yes prior to 1929 they were the only dictionaries, they did write some but not all vowels. The new Perso-Arabic Azeri dictionaries do have them.

October 2021

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Azerbaijani language. Your attempted replacement of a straightforward definition with a fringe notion has been contested by multiple editors, numerous times. You have been warned twice about edit warring: once on this subject and once on another. You have no consensus for the changes you are trying to make, and should either drop the subject (advisable, I would say, in this instance), or make a formal request for comment if you would still like to pursue it. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:38, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Not only was no consensus reached, but everybody who has reverted my edits has done so without any sources while I have provided sources with the utmost credibility. 1 of them a Published Persian-Azeri dictionary and the other a language guide for Azeri written by Javad Heyat, one of the foremost experts of Turkology in Iran. I will contest and report you for vandalism if you revert my factually correct edits one more time. Dimashlar (talk) 13:56, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Dimashlar

AA2 advisory

This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding Armenia, Azerbaijan, or related conflicts, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

- LouisAragon (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi under the pretext of a single quote, you deleted and entire section with useful material backed up by primary and secondary sources. Explain.

1. Javad Heyat is a surgeon by education, not a Turkologist or whatsoever. He has also been accused of holding pan-Turkist viewpoints and he has tried to Turkify one of the greatest Persian poets, Nizami Ganjavi. In short; he's not WP:RS, regardless of whether Gilles Riaux considers him a "recognized expert on Turkish affairs, in Ankara and elsewhere".
2. "azeri.org", added without page number, is not WP:RS either[1]
3. "Iranian society for cardiovascular surgeons"[2] Not WP:RS for any part related to the Azerbaijani language article.
4. "لغت‌نامه ترکی آذربایجانی: حروف آ (جلد" by Seyyed Hassan Ameli -- a source barely anyone will be able to read on the English Wikipedia. No page number either.
5. "He began the first Azeri language newspaper in Iran since the Phalavi crackdown on Turkic languages." -- this is entirely unsourced.

This is WP:AA2 territory, and you've been violating WP:TENDENTIOUS (including WP:WAR, WP:RS, WP:VER) on numerous occassions. Trust me this won't look good at ANI. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Louis, unfortunately the vast majority of what you said is completely irrelevant as we are not discussing politics but simply scientific linguistics. Javad Heyat's education doesn't matter because several well known Iranian Azeri instutitions have decided to adopt his alphabet as evidenced by the dictionary. The dictionary by Seyyed Hassan Ameli is an official dictionary that uses Javad Heyat's standard. Your only argument for disregarding it is that you don't understand it. Javad's political leanings are irrelevant when we are discussing how an alphabet works on a technical level. You have been violating WP:TENDENTIOUS yourself and have been making irrelevant edits. I will be moving this dispute higher up. Dimashlar (talk) 17:31, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Dimashlar

November 2021

Hello, I'm Materialscientist. I noticed that in this edit to Chinese Tatars, you removed content without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry, the removed content has been restored. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Materialscientist (talk) 03:52, 15 November 2021 (UTC)