Carola56
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Speedy deletion nomination of Keith William Allan edit
A tag has been placed on Keith William Allan requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies. You may also wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.
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December 2009 edit
Welcome to Wikipedia. The recent edit that you made to the page Keith William Allan has been reverted, as it appears to be unconstructive. Please use the sandbox for testing any edits; if you believe the edit was constructive, please ensure that you provide an informative edit summary. You may also wish to read the introduction to editing for further information. Thank you. FASTILYsock(TALK) 10:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
The message above is because you removed the speedy-deletion template from your article, instead of using a {{hangon}} template as instructed in the paragraph above. Never mind; I have declined the speedy-deletion because your addition explained the significance of the case, but I have added "Murder of.. " to the article title because the article is not really about Mr Allen but about his murder and its consequences. The red-links in the article for the names of the three men convicted of the murder suggest that you may be thinking of writing articles about them: if so, please first read the guidelines WP:Notability (criminal acts), especially the section headed "Perpetrators", and WP:Biographies of living persons. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 11:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks JohnCD. Your comments are very constructive and I appreciate them. I have a few things to add about the murder of Keith William Allan and I'll get to that soon as it's quite late at night here in Melbourne. The case is fascinating and it attracted some of the leading Melbourne barristers, including Colin Lovitt, and two barristers who appeared for accused in the case have since been appointed Judges. I won't write about the convicted persons until I look at the Wikipedia guidelines for living persons. Thanks once again. Carola56
Distinguished staff of Northcote High School edit
Hi Carola56. Im a serving staff member of NHS and regular contributor to WP, and I have to admit I'm not very comfortable with the "Distinguished former staff" section you have added. My problems with this section are a)How does one determine "distinguished"? It appears to be a pretty arbitrary selection you've made, I assume based on your own knowledge of the people concerned. b)How does one know they worked there - other than that you say they did?! The citations you provide in most cases have no mention of Northcote. Don't be offended - I know several of the people you've listed did work as teachers at Northcote, however some Ive never heard of. c)I'm a bit concerned that your well meaning addition will become an invitation to some of the 1400 current students and numerous ex-students to make their own additions, maybe not so well meant. --Nickm57 (talk) 23:48, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
All of those people did teach at Northcote High. Itiel Bereson taught there when he came to Australia from South Africa in 1957. Martin Kovacs taught there in 1957 until about 1962 when he went to the then Secondary Teachers College. Arthur Markham taught art there for about twenty years in the 1950s and 1960s. He had a number of one-man exhibitions of his work, and another Australian artist and teacher, Max Darby, referred to the influence of Arthur Markham on him somewhere on the internet. Brian Bromberger taught there in the late 1950s while he was doing a law degree at Melbourne Uni. So did Rob Maclellan. Both were untrained teachers. At the time it was only necessary to have four uni subjects to get a job teaching as a secondary teacher as there was a big shortage of teachers. I think Dave Bearlin was also in this category. He taught at Northcote in the late 1950s too. He was once an official with the Waterside Workers Union and left the Communist Party at the time, then ended up teaching at Northcote.
There is a problem with all entries. Wikipedia is edited by experienced editors, who are alert to vandalism. These entries are not just well meaning. They represent an attempt to include part of the school's history, and that ought to be recorded. The fact that Rob Maclellan, who was once Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party in state parliament, not only taught there but is happy to say so on the parliamentary web site, which you can look at via a link, adds much to the prestige of the school. Gary Israel might not know about any of these people.
Your point about distinguished is well made. How does one determine distinguished. Perhaps that could be changed to just ex staff members? I leave that to you. Have a talk with Gary Israel about this.
Northcote High was not regarded as a good school in the 1950s and 1960s, whatever Gary Israel might say. Northcote then was an area of low socio-economic status and ex students looking for a job in the 1960s often didn't want to admit they went there. There are several entries on the Northcote High list of students who have some notoriety. One of them is also on a list of persons with notoriety on the Melbourne Uni entry on WP, and I think this is proper. We can't hide the fact. Even Melbourne Grammar has ex students who end up with some notoriety. This is not always bad, as it is a value judgment. The ex barrel girl from Tattslotto is one example on the WP entry for Monash University people. She has notoriety, of course, but she is a successful and well-known businesswoman and should not be looked at in a bad light. We need to recognise all sorts of people went to and taught at Northcote High, and if some of them turn out to be bad apples we need to record this.
Carola56 (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Old copies of Ripples, the school magazine, can sometimes confirm whether or not staff members taught there. Gary Israel probably used Ripples in writing his history, which I have not seen.
Carola56 (talk) 00:22, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
- Very interesting. However, you still need to convince me why this merits inclusion in WP. I cannot find another school entry that does this. You might find some guidance here though - WP has a useful policy about orginal research at Wikipedia:No original research. It would appear that what you are writing is just that. I think you also need to be cautious about any references to living people. - seewikipedia:Biographies of living persons--Nickm57 (talk) 01:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Nick
This is not in my view original research. Just what is original research anyway? It is knowledge to many members of the school community. I did no original research. I knew all of this. Surely looking up a link is a sensible Wikipedia practice? Several persons are deceased. The items present or try to present a neutral point of view.
Lists are relevant and most schools would surely want to know who their ex students are or even about their ex staff. Northcote High has a better reputation now than it did. The list helps to increase that reputation.
You say you cannot find another school that does this? What? I think you mean lists of ex staff. The Fitzroy High entry does.
The Fitzroy High entry on Wikipedia lists its notable ex staff, in sentence rather than paragraph form, and includes Helen Garner who got the sack there in 1972 and that is mentioned both on the Fitzroy High entry and on Helen Garner's own Wikipedia entry.
Carola56 (talk) 04:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Carola56. Sorry - I thought it was quite clear what my concern was, as I started this section of your talk page with the header "Distinguished staff of Northcote High School." But I note you have since changed the section in question to "Notable former staff". All the same I still stand by what I wrote above. But let me be more specific. The staff members are distinguished or noteworthy in your opinion only. You are not able to refer to a reliable source that identifies them as "distinguished" or "notable"(or in some cases, even as ever having attended the school). If Gary Israel's forthcoming history (that you refer to several times above) listed some "notable staffmembers", then you could cite them as such, according to his source. But without such a citation, it is simply a statement being made on the basis of, as you indicate, your own knowledge. To play Devil's Advocate, why for example, is Itiel Bereson more noteworthy than the late Wayne Roberts (former student, staffmember and A/Principal). Or why isn't Soula Bennett, 2009 Science Teacher of the Year, noteworthy? We could go on all night!
- I had never looked at Fitzroy High School's entry - and having done so, can't say I'm impressed. Clearly other WP editors aren't either - you could not miss the request at the top "This article needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications... "etc. Anyway, I hope my concern is now quite clear.--Nickm57 (talk) 06:36, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi there. I have just edited the above article to make it more consistent with how an item like this might be expected to appear on Wikipedia. The 'who's who' list was not appropriate, for various reasons. Having lists embedded within articles is discouraged generally. In this case, most of the individuals named are not notable for their in this case, they just happen to be the people involved. The key people are mentioned in the article text, as they should be, and that is all that should be in the article. Even if the names did warrant inclusion, the list lacked references, but that is a secondary issue. The list is simply not needed for an article about the murder of KWA. I have made a few other edits to remove non-significant facts or unencycpedic material and language. If you have any queries, leave me a message. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:09, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm getting pretty tired of the repeated sanitising of Andrew Landeryou's bio, first by a series of IPs and now by you. You wouldn't happen to have a conflict of interest in this, would you? Removing past details that might be embarrassing to Landeryou is not the act of a neutral editor. Fences&Windows 18:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)