Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 39
Latest comment: 3 months ago by Beland in topic Linking "Nationality"
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Linking "Nationality"
Would anyone object linking the "Nationality" field name to Nationality to clarify this field is for a legal status and not an ethnicity, and so people can hopefully be more educated about the difference between legal nationality and legal citizenship? -- Beland (talk) 03:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
- That's a MOS:FORCELINK clarification. Most readers will anyways not click such a basic term—in an infobox header no less—and dictionaries anyhow have alternative definitions like
an ethnic group constituting one element of a larger unit (such as a nation)
[1] Still, readers will know Wikipedia's convention for the field, if it is consistent. If editors are the target, Template:Infobox person/doc already states that ethnicity does not belong in this field. —Bagumba (talk) 03:59, 7 February 2024 (UTC)- @Bagumba: I'm not sure which part of MOS:FORCELINK you are referring to, exactly, or what you're taking away from it? The advice there seems more applicable to article prose; in an infobox, we can't replace the link with an explanation of the meaning or an alternative term (as far as I know, this is the correct term for what it is). It's true the vast majority of readers will not click on the link, but readers who are confused about the meaning or who get angry about it and are about to write us an angry letter are a lot more likely to do so. I'm afraid readers will actually not be familiar with the meaning of this field, because for most biographies, it's omitted per MOS:INFONAT. -- Beland (talk) 03:14, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry for the confusion. My point is that readers already have some idea of what Nationality means, even if it's differnent from WP's ibx conventions, and the nuance will not be conveyed merely by linking Nationality. I understand it's a loaded term. If a distinction truly needs to be addressed (no current opinion), perhaps an explanatory footnote is a compromise. —Bagumba (talk) 03:29, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: Hmm, I was being cautious about not making too intrusive a change, but you're probably right a link is perhaps too small a change to clarify that this is not an ethnicity. A footnote is a good idea, but it might take a fair amount of work to make it show up in the right place across all the affected articles. We could change the field name itself, to something like "Legal nationality" or "Nationality (legal)"? I still think a link would be helpful for the curious, and it doesn't sound like it would have a down side? -- Beland (talk) 00:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- As it doesn't address the original stated issue, adding a link is extraneous. Every reader has access to the search box, so the curious few can enter "Nationality". There's also the guideline MOS:LEADLINK—
Too many links can make the lead hard to read
, or at least devalues the more essential links. —Bagumba (talk) 02:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)- @Bagumba: This is for an infobox, not the lead. The lead is written in prose, whereas the infobox is in a key-value format, where I think links on the keys are actually generally helpful because there's usually no room to put anything other than the key name.
- In any case, since you want more than just a link to address the original problem, what about "Nationality (legal)" without a link? -- Beland (talk) 21:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Beland: The infobox is an element of the lead (MOS:LEADELEMENTS).
In any case, since you want more than just a link to address the original problem
: I have not stated that. I've only said that the proposed link doesn't resolve the concern. As for "(legal)", I don't think it would be an improvement to invite editors to highlight additional nationalites that some people technically have, but which are not part of their notability. —Bagumba (talk) 04:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)- Presumably folks with Wikipedia biographies are notable for something other than their nationality? Isn't that what this field is for, to document legal nationalities that are unexpected, since the guidelines say if it's obvious from the birth country not to list it? -- Beland (talk) 05:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- An example would be someone born on a U.S. military base in Germany, who is notable only as an American, but also acquired Italian citizenship by descent through their grandparents in their later life. —Bagumba (talk) 05:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds like an interesting fact which would be neat to add to an infobox. If we're worried about people abusing the field, it seems like it would be much more likely for people to put ethnicity here, given that's what most people think nationality means if it doesn't mean citizenship. -- Beland (talk) 07:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- An example would be someone born on a U.S. military base in Germany, who is notable only as an American, but also acquired Italian citizenship by descent through their grandparents in their later life. —Bagumba (talk) 05:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Presumably folks with Wikipedia biographies are notable for something other than their nationality? Isn't that what this field is for, to document legal nationalities that are unexpected, since the guidelines say if it's obvious from the birth country not to list it? -- Beland (talk) 05:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Beland: The infobox is an element of the lead (MOS:LEADELEMENTS).
- As it doesn't address the original stated issue, adding a link is extraneous. Every reader has access to the search box, so the curious few can enter "Nationality". There's also the guideline MOS:LEADLINK—
- @Bagumba: Hmm, I was being cautious about not making too intrusive a change, but you're probably right a link is perhaps too small a change to clarify that this is not an ethnicity. A footnote is a good idea, but it might take a fair amount of work to make it show up in the right place across all the affected articles. We could change the field name itself, to something like "Legal nationality" or "Nationality (legal)"? I still think a link would be helpful for the curious, and it doesn't sound like it would have a down side? -- Beland (talk) 00:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry for the confusion. My point is that readers already have some idea of what Nationality means, even if it's differnent from WP's ibx conventions, and the nuance will not be conveyed merely by linking Nationality. I understand it's a loaded term. If a distinction truly needs to be addressed (no current opinion), perhaps an explanatory footnote is a compromise. —Bagumba (talk) 03:29, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: I'm not sure which part of MOS:FORCELINK you are referring to, exactly, or what you're taking away from it? The advice there seems more applicable to article prose; in an infobox, we can't replace the link with an explanation of the meaning or an alternative term (as far as I know, this is the correct term for what it is). It's true the vast majority of readers will not click on the link, but readers who are confused about the meaning or who get angry about it and are about to write us an angry letter are a lot more likely to do so. I'm afraid readers will actually not be familiar with the meaning of this field, because for most biographies, it's omitted per MOS:INFONAT. -- Beland (talk) 03:14, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Update: After going through thousands of biography infoboxes, it appears that editors regularly put ethnicity into the "nationality" field, in violation of WP:INFONAT. I've started a discussion on abolishing or disfavoring or changing this field. Please add your thoughts at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Abolishing or disfavoring the "nationality" field. -- Beland (talk) 21:57, 9 June 2024 (UTC)