Template talk:Infobox YouTube personality

'channel_url' is not a 'url'

'channel_url' is not a 'url'. it's an 'id'. Everyone gets confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcxfu75k (talk • contribs) 16:59, June 27, 2021 (UTC)

Proposed changes

I recently proposed a number of changes to {{Infobox Twitch streamer}} and would like to propose some similar changes here, as that template was derived from this one. Maintaining consistency between the two templates seems beneficial as they are commonly bundled together.

• Add |organization=

I'm leading with this as it has the most potential to be contentious. A notable aspect of content creation these days is that personalities can often get signed to an organization (e.g., OfflineTV, 100 Thieves, One True King, etc). Now, these are usually just tossed into "Associated acts" but I think they're notable enough to warrant their own distinction. The "Organization(s)" parameter would include past and present organizations a creator has been signed to, accompanied by a year range, and be placed below |relatives= in "Personal information", as it is not directly tied to their YouTube channel.

• Remove |height=

Rarely notable characteristic that generally doesn't fit into the scope of YouTube personalities. If there is some instance where this is notable, {{Infobox person}} can be used as the parent infobox instead.

• Remove |networth=

"Net worth" was deprecated on {{Infobox person}} in July 2021 per RfC.

• Remove |header-color=

Given this is a YouTube template, it makes sense to restrict the color options to YouTube's red branding or no color at all, which are already implemented. (Note: this parameter currently only works on the "Creator Awards" header when |embed= is used. If kept, its functionality needs to be expanded.)

• Reorder and rename |pseudonym=

Move above |education=, as its current position under the "YouTube information" header suggests these names are directly tied to the YouTube channel, which may not necessarily be the case. And this next part is less important, but I think it's worth changing the label to "Other names" for consistency with {{Infobox person}}. These changes would lend itself to removing the unnecessary "use only for individuals" limitation in this parameter's documentation.

• Reorder and restrict |location=

Move below |creator= and |presenter= as those are more notable aspects of the channel. Also, the documentation of this parameter should be updated to state it is only to be used when the location of the channel is notable, and is not for mere residence of individuals—as residence was deprecated on {{Infobox person}} in December 2019 per consensus.

• Reorder |spouse=

Move above |partner= as spouses are generally more notable.

• Reorder |channel_website=

Move to the very bottom of the "YouTube information" section, in line with how websites are normally handled in infoboxes. (Not to be confused with personal |website=, which is separate.)

• Reorder |language=

Move above |associated_acts=, as it is a more notable aspect of the channel. "Associated acts", much like "website", is more akin to "see also" and should be at the bottom.

Let me know what you think. Prefall 14:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Note: I have implemented my proposed changes into the sandbox. You can view testcases here. Prefall 16:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with these changes. I'd also be interested in seeing an |alma_mater= parameter added for those associated with notable universities, and mother/father parameters when there is only one notable parent that would automatically change the label from 'parents' to 'parent' and put the associated term in brackets, such as [[name]] (mother) or [[name]] (father) when using a {{para|mother}} or {{para|father}} parameter. I do wonder about the use of the |origin= parameter a bit, probably because it's not widely used. – Handoto (talk) 16:03, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Regarding |alma mater=, know that {{Infobox person}} advises to use |alma mater= or |education=, but not both. Generally, those parameters should list only higher-education institutions (no secondary, middle, primary, etc. schools) from which a non-honorary degree is earned/awarded, although local consensus could differ if listing attendance at a higher-education institution where a degree was not earned/awarded is deemed key/important (i.e., WP:DUE) (e.g., Bill Gates).

Furthermore, |alma mater= should be used to list one, and only one, institution. When listing more than one higher-education institution or when adding details like degree, year, field of study, and/or location, |education= should be used (with a list format like {{Ubl}} for multiple institutions). Absent a compelling reason, I think that use of |education= and |alma mater= (if it is added) in this infobox should be consistent with {{Infobox person}}'s guidance.  — Archer1234 (t·c) 16:46, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course, completely agree. Use of either |alma_mater= or |education= should match the use case and guidelines already spelled out at {{Infobox person}} for here. – Handoto (talk) 19:47, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind the addition of |alma_mater=, but I agree with Archer1234 that we should follow {{Infobox person}}'s documentation if it is added. Also, completely agree in regards to |mother= and |father=—I went ahead and imported that functionality into the sandbox.

As for |origin=, I originally had concerns about it as well and was going to propose to remove it, but its documented limitation of general use for non-individuals seemed fine enough. The main issue I see, much like |location= being misused as residence, is that |origin= is frequently misused as "home town" of individuals—which was deprecated on Infobox person in September 2020 per consensus—but I'm not sure if that's worth nuking the entire parameter over. With that said, I would not be opposed to its removal if others agree. Prefall 19:43, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to it's removal in the future if consensus changes, just thought I would briefly bring it up as it is one of those parameters that is rarely used has been misinterpreted in the past. I wouldn't mind the addition of |alma_mater= as the only way people are able to use it so far is to either use {{Infobox person}} and embed the {{Infobox YouTube personality}} (like at Tom Scott or Max Miller), or to embed the templates the other way around (like at Matthew Santoro). – Handoto (talk) 20:15, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

These changes look good, but |organization= parameter should go under the YouTube information section since that infomation pertains to their YouTube careers not their personal lives. It should also not have a date range; save that information for the main article as this degree of detail is better discussed in prose like the |label= parameter of {{Infobox musical artist}}. I'd also propose the |network= parameter be removed. The days of MCNs like Machinima owning Youtubers channels are gone so pointless to have. In fact, maybe the |network= parameter shoud simply get renamed to |organization= with updated documentation for the parameter. - Brojam (talk) 21:18, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I get what you mean by it being better to leave out the year range for organizations in favor of discussing in prose, but my thought is that, if we're going to include both past and present organizations in this parameter, it will be difficult to discern which one they're actively a part of. Also, an issue I have with putting organizations under "YouTube information" is that it becomes a conflict when we bundle this infobox together with {{Infobox Twitch streamer}}—it would suggest the organization is directly tied to just one of their platforms rather than being general information about the individual. Prefall 21:51, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

@Brojam: Hoping to get your thoughts on my concerns above, so we can avoid any potential holdups to implementation. I'm flexible when it comes to the year ranges, but I'd very much like to keep the placement. If the "Personal information" heading is too specific for organizations, I'd rather we just remove the header altogether to be safe, because it is not necessary for better understanding of the information being presented, unlike "YouTube information". Prefall 20:58, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm good with your placing to avoid conflict when the Twich infobox is also used. So will we combine it with network parameter or simply remove the latter? - Brojam (talk) 21:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with Networks/MCNs to give an opinion on that front. I think I'd rather leave that decision up to those that are more informed. Prefall 21:08, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Building on my earlier reply about |alma mater=, for all parameters that correspond to equivalent ones in {{Infobox person}}, I would harmonize the description/guidance with what is over there. Over time we'd just need to keep them in sync by monitoring for changes. It might be worth also pointing editors to the examples and test cases for {{infobox person}} to see appropriate uses instead of trying duplicate them here. Presumably the code for processing those parameters ought to be the same or nearly the same, although any code for placing articles in tracking categories would probably target tracking categories created specifically for {{Infobox YouTube personality}}.  — Archer1234 (t·c) 21:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I think I can add my thoughts. Pseudonym should stay under YouTube information because it is mostly used for alternatives of a channel name/online name that someone uses, not necessarily a real name used outside of the Internet, so putting it under personal information is not best. Renaming pseudonym’s Also known as to Other names could cause conflict of using it to list another online name versus a person’s other real name. If nicknames/other names want to be added, there should be a different field under personal information for that instead. Networth should be deleted. If almamater is used to list a college or university, then I think it should be included like other templates. Prefixes and suffixes that are linked use a blue color font that makes it hard to read on the YouTube red background. Maybe it could be made white or something, like the name at the top? Network should stay because while it is not as common anymore, there are still many users part of a notable network, and others that show former networks. Switching spouse and partner would match other templates. Thank you! 2605:B100:128:DF39:DC0F:F9EE:CF03:11BF (talk) 18:47, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Alternate online names may not necessarily be tied to their YouTube channel though, as I said. Plus, there's nothing wrong with putting online monikers in personal details alongside real names—that's how aliases are handled in {{Infobox person}}. But if it's still an issue, we can add a separate "Other names" parameter under "Personal information" for flexibility, I suppose.

As for the color issues with links, I just updated this template (and the Twitch one) to fix this issue. Thanks for mentioning it. Prefall 03:38, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing the color issue! I have also noticed that both the prefix and suffix fields for some strange reason automatically bold the text written in those two fields, which it should not do because it blends in with the already properly bolded name text, and does not match the unbolded style with other templates use with those two fields. Also I think the best thing to do would be to have Other names with the same label under personal information, and pseudonym with the label Also known as to remain under YouTube information to be able to give flexibility on whether additional names are related to the channel’s pseudonym or just other names in general. Thank you! 2605:B100:128:DF39:DC0F:F9EE:CF03:11BF (talk) 14:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The bold prefix/suffix should be fixed now as well. Might take a little while to be reflected on live pages as I've noticed style changes sometimes require cache to be purged. Prefall 18:35, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay, with no opposition, I think enough time has passed to go ahead and implement the supported changes. I've also implemented these changes into the Twitch template for consistency. We can continue discussing other proposed changes that were brought up here, such as the addition of |alma_mater= and merge/removal of |network=. Prefall 11:19, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I support the inclusion of |alma_mater= as there are quite a few pages that currently use the parameter in one way or another. Its inclusion would simplify the use of it without the need for embedding, and it seems to be one of those oddly missing parameters. As for |network=, it should stay the way it is, at the very least for historical reasons, but also that there are a number of notable YouTubers that often talk about and have a close connection with their network publicly. While MCNs aren't as common as they used to be, news sources often discuss if a person is dropped or switch networks, in which this parameter can be used. – Handoto (talk) 23:28, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

It feels like you wanted to remove height possibly to hide Linus Sebastian's height. Height is a common request for celebrities/personalities, that's why sites like CelebHeights.com are so popular. --TIB (talk) 00:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

They're popular, but seldom verifiable. Most of those heights are unreliable guesswork or based on random social media posts, so they're a magnet for vandalism and BLP violations. If a YouTuber's height is notable and has coverage in reliable sources, it can go into the article. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 16:13, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is the logo before the person?

It seems odd to me that we'd put the logo in a more predominate location over an image of the actual personality. Might I suggest swapping them? Image of person, then logo? Unless there's a strong reasoning for it I'm missing! Ckoerner (talk) 17:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)