Template:Did you know nominations/Zeige uns, Herr, deine Allmacht und Güte
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
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Zeige uns, Herr, deine Allmacht und Güte edit
... that the new text of the penitential hymn "Zeige uns, Herr, deine Allmacht und Güte" was coupled with a 1708 melody which begins with a cruciform melody?Source: [1]
- Reviewed: Watts Park, Southampton
- Comment: during Lent please, latest 13 April
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:30, 25 March 2019 (UTC).
- I think the hook fact has potential, but it doesn't really elaborate that it's a 2013 (published) song with a 1708 melody. How about something like this?
- ALT1
... that the penitential hymn "Zeige uns, Herr, deine Allmacht und Güte", which was first published in 2013, uses a melody that was composed in 1708? - Personally it seems more interesting that a relatively new song uses such an old melody than it using a cruciform melody. Or if you really want to include the cruciform melody part, there's this option:
- ALT2
... that the penitential hymn "Zeige uns, Herr, deine Allmacht und Güte", which was first published in 2013 and uses a cruciform melody, is based on a song that was composed in 1708? - Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:58, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, very thoughtful. I avoided the 2013 year because I'm not sure that it was the first publication, only we have no source for an earlier one. There are many old melodies, but this one really stands out as "almost for solo singing", which I wanted to hint at by the beginning - which is the strangest beginning of a melody in the complete hymnal that I know. Many new songs are written to old melodies, look at Maria Luise Thurmair, but those are often familiar melodies, and the poet planned to use them, - while here, words and melody were coupled only afterwards, - I don't know any other of that kind. - I planned to write about the song last Sunday, and then we actually sang it at church ;) - If you google, you find many dioceses introducing the "2013 new" songs. Summary: "old melody new words" is too general for this very special one. It doesn't have to be cruciform, if you can think of something else to point that out. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:23, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well we are writing for general audiences, and what might be considered "typical" or "common" to one group (for example Christians) may be unusual to those of other backgrounds. It's getting late where I live so I'll do a review tomorrow. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:26, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, very thoughtful. I avoided the 2013 year because I'm not sure that it was the first publication, only we have no source for an earlier one. There are many old melodies, but this one really stands out as "almost for solo singing", which I wanted to hint at by the beginning - which is the strangest beginning of a melody in the complete hymnal that I know. Many new songs are written to old melodies, look at Maria Luise Thurmair, but those are often familiar melodies, and the poet planned to use them, - while here, words and melody were coupled only afterwards, - I don't know any other of that kind. - I planned to write about the song last Sunday, and then we actually sang it at church ;) - If you google, you find many dioceses introducing the "2013 new" songs. Summary: "old melody new words" is too general for this very special one. It doesn't have to be cruciform, if you can think of something else to point that out. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:23, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
The article was new enough and long enough at the time of the nomination. The hook facts for all hooks are cited inline, all to German sources so they are accepted in good faith. No close paraphasing was found, and a QPQ has been provided. As I proposed ALT1 and ALT2, I will leave the final tick to another editor. Just as a suggestion: while the nominator wants this to go up on lent, may I suggest that this could also possibly go up on either Maundy Thursday or Good Friday, considering the material? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:52, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the review. I have one suggestion for Maunday Thursday, 2 to 3 for Good Friday, one for Holy Saturday, one for Easter, - would be too much. Also: this is in the Lent section of the hymnal, why others are in the Holy Week section. - Striking ALT2, which first mentions melody, then song composed, - too much duplication, would need rewording to be useful. Trying:
- ALT3:
... that the penitential song "Zeige uns, Herr, deine Allmacht und Güte" was published in the 2013 Gotteslob, combined with an unusual melody from a 1708 hymnal? - I'd like to use a better adjective instead of "unusual", do you know one? "expressive"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:55, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- I honestly still prefer ALT1: it more or less says the same thing but in a clearer manner and makes the connection between the 2013 publication and the 1708 composition more compact. But I'll leave the final reviewer to decide. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:09, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- I believe you without adding "honestly" ;) - I am not sure how we can say "the hymn uses", while it was a group of people who decided not to use the melody for which the lyricist had written the words but a different and much older one. I also miss any hint at how unusual - exciting - whatever - that melody is. It's powerful even without words, in a rare way. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- ALT4:
... that Raymund Weber wrote a penitential poem set to a modern melody, but a Catholic hymnal switched the setting to an unusual tune from 1708?70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)- Thank you for the offer, but I see a few problems: 1) It says nowhere that its in German, 2) "modern" has awfully many meanings, 3) it's not "a Catholic hymnal" but The Catholic hymnal, common for Grerman-speaking countries, 4) and key: it fails to say how unusually expressive this melody is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:10, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- :) You can of course add in all those details. It's just that I feel these hooks are more engaging and readable when they focus on the one hooky thing. In this case, the switch to an old melody would be interesting no matter what language was involved. And the nature of the old melody (that is, the reason for the switch) would be thing people would be clicking to find out. Anyway, that's just my opinion! For you, the complete detail version would look like this: ALT4b:... that German theologian Raymund Weber wrote a penitential poem set to a 20th-century melody, but the Catholic hymnal switched the setting to an unusual and expressive tune from 1708? 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, I came by to move this along. I like ALT4. I don't like "unusual". How about:
- ALT4a:
... that Raymund Weber wrote a penitential poem set to a modern melody, but a Catholic hymnal switched the setting to a Baroque melody from 1708?Yoninah (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- I wrote the article fascinated by the melody, but well, I don't have the language to describe the fascination in one word, and right, "unusual" is way too pale. Let's see what we can do about ALT4. I don't like "poem", because he meant a hymn when writing, and I don't like "setting", that's the composer's job, and I don't like "a catholic hymnal" when it's THE German Catholic hymnal. "switched" is also not quite correct, because it never was the other melody in the hymnal. - I also don't like to pipe the topic, very gernerally, a name is a name, but without piping we'll probably be too long.
- ALT5:
... that Raymund Weber wrote a penitential poem to a modern hymn tune, but his text was coupled with a Baroque melody in the German Catholic hymnal? - ALT6: ... that Raymund Weber wrote "Zeige uns, Herr, deine Allmacht und Güte" to be sung with a modern melody, but it appears in the German Catholic hymnal with a Baroque melody? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- :) You can of course add in all those details. It's just that I feel these hooks are more engaging and readable when they focus on the one hooky thing. In this case, the switch to an old melody would be interesting no matter what language was involved. And the nature of the old melody (that is, the reason for the switch) would be thing people would be clicking to find out. Anyway, that's just my opinion! For you, the complete detail version would look like this: ALT4b:... that German theologian Raymund Weber wrote a penitential poem set to a 20th-century melody, but the Catholic hymnal switched the setting to an unusual and expressive tune from 1708? 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offer, but I see a few problems: 1) It says nowhere that its in German, 2) "modern" has awfully many meanings, 3) it's not "a Catholic hymnal" but The Catholic hymnal, common for Grerman-speaking countries, 4) and key: it fails to say how unusually expressive this melody is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:10, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- ALT4:
- I believe you without adding "honestly" ;) - I am not sure how we can say "the hymn uses", while it was a group of people who decided not to use the melody for which the lyricist had written the words but a different and much older one. I also miss any hint at how unusual - exciting - whatever - that melody is. It's powerful even without words, in a rare way. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- I honestly still prefer ALT1: it more or less says the same thing but in a clearer manner and makes the connection between the 2013 publication and the 1708 composition more compact. But I'll leave the final reviewer to decide. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:09, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
