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Template:Did you know nominations/Vamos A Celebrar

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Round symbols for illustrating comments about the DYK nomination The following is an archived discussion of Vamos A Celebrar's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you knowDYK comment symbol (talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.

The result was: promoted by Carabinieri (talk) 17:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC).

Vamos A Celebrar edit

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  • ... that the song "Vamos a Celebrar" contains a fusion of Carribean rhythms with the unique sound of the plena?

Created/expanded by DivaKnockouts (talk), Hahc21 (talk). Self nom at 03:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Good to go. Good article, new enough, long enough, hook is interesting enough. Meets all guidelines. — ΛΧΣ21 06:17, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Almost the entire Background section is quotes, most from the same source. A great deal of this should be paraphrased—background should be more prose than quoting. The lead section should summarize the article, not contain information that isn't in the article's body, though that isn't a reason to block at DYK nomination. Still, this article should be organized better. I was also wondering whether the title of the article should be "Vamos a Celebrar" with a lowercase "a"; that's indicated by FN5's title; WP:MOS, at least in English, lowercases words like "the" and "to" and "of" within song titles, and I was wondering whether that would apply to "a" here. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:49, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't see what your are talking about with the Background being mostly by one source, the quotes are referenced with two citatation which are both used twice to reference the quotes. Also, if there was more prose available to use, I assure you that it would be included in the article. Thats's the problem, there isn't a lot of information on the background of the song. I could include some information of the album Musa she released months earlier. Now, about the title. I don't know if it should be renamed, but all of the citations in the article refer to the song as "Vamos a Celebrar". (Except for iTunes and Amazon). I usually go with the spelling on iTunes or Amazon, so I don't know. — DivaKnockouts (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The point I was trying to make is that you should be mostly summarizing what Ivy Queen said, putting it in your own words with a few illustrative quoted phrases perhaps, not baldly quoting her. After the two introductory sentences, the entire remainder of the Background section is over 600 characters of quoting her from the two sources, stringing quote after quote. That's not acceptable. There's only a single "Ivy Queen said" amidst those 600+, and you've made it its own sentence, not even connected with any of the quotes. Because of how the quotes were distributed, I thought there was a distinct majority of FN1, even excluding the first two sentences also from that source (381 to 225 for FN2), but now that I look more closely, it appears that the quote after "Ivy Queen said" is not from FN1, but one of two disparate quoted sentences from FN2, which would mean it leads 336 to 270. The Background section needs to be fixed before the article can be approved. You might want to think about including a bit about who Victoria Sanabria is in the background section, and explain just what “El Trovatón” del Circo de la Mega is as well, since neither is wikilinked. As for the name, if all the citations in the article use a lowercase "a", then I suspect that's what should be used here. iTunes and Amazon probably don't know how titles in foreign languages are supposed to work. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:33, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I believe the issues with the Background section have been addressed. Also, I'm sure iTunes and Amazon do know how titles work in any language due to having sites in various languages, plus, they get the music from the artist or artist's record company so, not sure about that. — DivaKnockouts (talk) 03:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm going to see if I can get a new reviewer; I want an independent opinion on the revised Background section. In the meantime, I have adjusted the hook to use the lowercase "a" now that you've moved the article to the new name, and made a few other adjustments to this template, also because of the new name. Best of luck! BlueMoonset (talk) 00:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • There's still no reason for a 2400 character article to quote some 400 characters. Also, the writing style in that paragraph is very journalistic. I'm worried about close paraphrasing.
  • How about now? — DivaKnockouts (talk) 02:14, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
    • That whole section needs rewriting. Too many quotes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Three quotes is too many?? — DivaKnockouts (talk) 02:39, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
        • Not in number, but length. Those are all full sentences. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
          • I believe the issues have been fixed. — DivaKnockouts (talk) 02:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

The hook is copied verbatim from the source, so I didn't even check further for close paraphrasing or plagiarism at this point. With the hook being a cut-and-paste, I assume there may be more of same. The source says:

  • “Vamos a celebrar” contiene una fusión de ritmos caribeños, con el sonido particular de la plena.

That translates literally to:

  • "Vamos a celebrar" contains a fusion of caribbean rhythms with the particular (unique) sound of the plena.

The hook says:

The rest of the article needs to be checked for plagiarism/copyvio/close paraphrasing.

Additionally, I'm not happy with the hook. I speak Spanish, and have lived throughout Latin America, and I'm not familiar with the word plena; we shouldn't obligate our readers to click on another link to understand the meaning of the hook. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:39, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's another example:

  • Source: Ese encuentro provocó una química entre ellas que ahora se transforma en la canción navideña, Vamos a celebrar. [1]
  • Translation: This encounter provoked a chemistry between them that now is transformed in/to the Christmas song "Vamos a celebrar".
  • Article text: The encounter sparked an chemistry between the two that now is the song "Vamos a Celebrar".

A few words dropped, close paraphrasing. It is important for editors translating from Spanish sources to realize that translating directly is still copyvio/plagiarism/close paraphrasing (depending). I would ask the original editor to review all previous work and rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing or plagiarism.[2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

  • "Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting (with or without quotation marks), so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text – for example, by adding "John Smith wrote ...," together with a footnote containing the citation at the end of the clause, sentence or paragraph." And this, is solely what is being done here. Both instances that you have pointed out, have citations clearly attributed to the text. Also, the second is example is entirely my own words, except for chemistry. This is crazy. I will not check 29 other articles, as I am not the only editor on most of those articles. I am not changing the hook either, however if a better hook can be made/suggested there is no problem. You not being familiar with the plena is not my fault, and there is a link provided to its WP page. "Plena is a music genre native to Puerto Rico. Its creation was influenced by African and Caribbean music." Thank you. — DivaKnockouts (talk) 17:21, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Incorrect. And even if it were correct, the samples are 1) cut-and-paste plagiarism without quotes or attribution, and 2) either cut-and-paste plagiarism or close paraphrasing (depending on interpretation) without quotes or attribution. I am politely and respectfully asking you to address your other articles so that a CCI isn't needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
      • They are none of these. I translated them, as I am fluent in Spanish and while similarities do show up, it is not plagiarism or close paraphrasing. I know for a fact no other articles of mine, that I have expanded incorporate close paraphrasing or plagiarism. Also, there is attribution on every single statement that could be challenged. — DivaKnockouts (talk) 17:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
        • There is another example, in English for those who don't speak Spanish, where you have cut-and-paste without quotes from this source in English in this article. That was the first other article I checked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
          • Please point out where. Everywhere that is not quoted does not to be quoted. However, every statement is referenced containing a citation. When she is talking about the song itself Menor Que Yo, I put that in quotes and is attributed by a citation. I still don't see the problem. That article has been previously featured as a DYK, but fuck it. I formally withdraw this nomination. I would not like to see or hear from you again, thank you and have a nice day. — DivaKnockouts (talk) 17:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
            • In that English example, taken from the article without quotes are these (samples only):
              1. It is about what happens to a lot of women.
              2. Ivy Queen also stated that she identifies with the song saying she had much younger boyfriends in her personal life who are 23, sometimes 22 years old.
            • Other portions of the para are quoted, so, if the quotes were correctly included, the entire paragraph would be a quote, which I suspect doesn't meet DYK crit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

And clicking on the first DYK I encounter in your talk page archives yields:

  1. Source: La canción fusiona el ritmo de la bomba, un género afromestizo del folclor de Puerto Rico, con sonidos y bases rítmicas de lo que se llama género urbano , lo que aporta a su salsa un toque diferente a lo que hab[ia hecho hasta ahora en sus dos más de dos décadas de carrera.[3]
  2. Translation: The song blends/fuses the rhythm/beat of the bomba ... with sounds and rhythmic bases/foundations ... which gives the salsa a different touch ...
  3. Article text: The song blends the beat of "la bomba" with sounds and rhythmic foundation of reggaeton, which gives the salsa a different touch. [4]

Considering the original editor doesn't appear willing to revisit these articles, I suggest a WP:CCI be submitted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Many people make that honest mistake, Diva, but adding a citation doesn't allow us to leave off the quotes. It happens often, but when it's an honest mistake, a CCI can be avoided by going back and helping with the cleanup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:02, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I will take the job to help Diva make the cleanup. I guess that considering that most of his work is centered around Ivy Queen articles, a CCI is unnecessary, as I know where to look. I apologize for not checking the article against the sources using the Dup Detector. I didn't expect any copyvio but I was wrong. Regards. — ΛΧΣ21 18:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • That's great news (from both :) Just review older articles you created (I identified 29 in the link above) to make sure there is no unquoted cut-and-paste text, or too close paraphrasing. Even when translating, we have to put text in our own words, and even when attributing, we have to put exact text in quotes. When editors are willing to go back and clean up, CCI is usually avoided-- that would be an excellent outcome. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Update: I have copyedited the article. I think this may solve this independent issue. Regards. — ΛΧΣ21 02:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Full review needed after copyright issues addressed. — DivaKnockouts (talk) 22:27, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Article: is new enough (created 4 Jan 2013); long enough (1,846 at time of nom); appears to be neutral, cites sources and free of plagiarism (see work above); is not a BLP's
  • Hook: SG on 14 Jan stated "The hook is copied verbatim from the source ..." and the same hook is still present. I propose an alternate hook sourced to peopleenespanol.com:
Good to go except for hook. I cannot approve my own hook so if nom accepts my hook, it will need reviewing by another reviewer --Senra (talk) 11:56, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Senra, your alternate hook is excellent. I love it. We shall go with this one. — DivaKnockouts 16:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
  • ALT1 hook is sourced to a foreign-language ref; I can read enough words in the Spanish to AGF. ALT1 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 21:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
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