- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:26, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
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Sophie Koch
edit- ... that mezzo-soprano Sophie Koch became internationally known when she appeared as Rosina in Rossini's Il Barbiere di Siviglia at the Royal Opera House Covent Garden? Source: several
- Reviewed:
to comeDavid Bennett (opera director)
- Reviewed:
Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 11:18, 21 October 2018 (UTC).
Claiming this for review. The full review will be to follow. The proposed hook I suppose is somewhat interesting, but I'm not sure if non-opera fans will like it. I note that the article states she began performing opera at the age of 11; is that unusual in opera? Because personally I think that performing opera at such a young age is interesting to a broad audience. Secondly, the sentence "Sophie Koch is a patron of the Coline Opera Endowment Fund." and much of the Discography section is unreferenced. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:58, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking. Beginning young is not unusual, and nothing about her. - Becoming internationally known, without what follows, should be enough for the not so operatic ;) - LouisAlain, can you take care of the facts for which I couldn't find a reference? Reference or remove, that is the question. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Gerda, if you couldn't get refs as pertains the discography, there's no way I could, so my suggestion is to mask the whole discography section unless someone is ready to search through the different record labels catalogues. Is it worth the pain for a DYK article?
- I was in a rush and only saw the endowment fund. I will take care of the discopgraphy, but don't know when. Am on vacation. just returned after a day out, and after dinner will today's article. Patience please. - I will never understand why published books and recordings - which are in authority control (in national libraries, among others) - also need a reference. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:52, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Same here. But 'never' say "never" nor "always" 
LouisAlain (talk) 23:28, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- @LouisAlain and Gerda Arendt: It has been over a week since the last edits. Please return to the article as soon as possible. Thanks. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:23, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reminder, I forgot over vacation. Later today, or tomorrow, or ping me again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:05, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, I referenced the recordings, and dropped the one line without ref. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- ALT1: ... that mezzo-soprano Sophie Koch made her Metropolitan Opera debut as Charlotte in Massenet's Werther?
- The Met is probably better known, but the ROH is the better article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:41, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- Honestly I'm not sure about ALT1, as it assumes familiarity with Werther, which most of our audiences are not. I still think the fact she debuted as an opera actress at such a young age is a more interesting fact to a wide audience. It may probably be common knowledge for opera fans, but probably less so for the layman. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- I hear you but am unconvinced. Many artists start young, that's nothing personal. DYK is for things the readers don't yet know, including Werther. A headline in a review said "is a Charlotte to die for", - that is personal. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:52, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- Well I suppose if you don't want to talk about her debuting as a child, we probably should stick to the original hook. ALT1 just isn't very interesting, in my opinion. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:56, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- I hear you but am unconvinced. Many artists start young, that's nothing personal. DYK is for things the readers don't yet know, including Werther. A headline in a review said "is a Charlotte to die for", - that is personal. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:52, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- Honestly I'm not sure about ALT1, as it assumes familiarity with Werther, which most of our audiences are not. I still think the fact she debuted as an opera actress at such a young age is a more interesting fact to a wide audience. It may probably be common knowledge for opera fans, but probably less so for the layman. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Honestly, I think we may need to try a new hook here. All the hooks proposed here basically amount to "did you know that Person became known as Role in Opera X?", which honestly isn't that engaging. Isn't there more that could be said about Koch? Something quirky that could catch the attention of those who are unfamiliar with operatic works? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
(We just had Ignaz Kirchner, where a reviewer said the same - "not interesting", we discussed for two months after his at the time of nomination recent death, and ended up taking the first hook. - I confess frustration. I want to write articles, not discuss no end if a hook could perhaps garner 200 more views if catering more to the general public. - For a performer: it would be hooky to say they started old, because most start young, - it's not worth reporting. I always try to find something that can be said about the specific person and nobody else.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:33, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- This isn't about page views though, and personally I am the type of editor that doesn't really care about page views: it's being featured at all that matters. But in any case, the proposed hooks are barely of interest to non-opera fans. Gerda, I understand that you are very passionate about this topic and want more people to know about it, but the hooks that have been proposed aren't really working out. Personally speaking, although debuting in opera young might be well-known to opera fans, it's not necessarily so, and it could be very interesting to others that people of such a young age can start so young in such a demanding form of music. And finally, a hook fact need not be unique as long as it's interesting, but then again, "interesting" is subjective. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- You didn't hear me. The hook about the actor mentioned two roles he played, their authors, and the notable theatre, - I find that very similar. I'd appreciate another pair of eyes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- ps: The Barber of Seville has a few hundred viewers each day, - that IS a piece that people know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Yoninah and Bermicourt: Thoughts here? It seem Gerda is asking for a second reviewer. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- I like the original hook. It has all the ingredients of a good hook ... except you wouldn't click on it, Narutolovehinata5. And neither would I. But I also don't click on hooks about insects, footballers, or women "firsts". I have always appreciated Gerda's hooks for the variety they add to the set, just as insects have their place. If the hook is well-written, as this one is, I give it a pass. I promoted Ignaz Kirchner to the image slot because it had a great image – and made sure that the hook had all the right qualities of hookiness ... for opera fans. Please move this one along. Yoninah (talk) 11:15, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- Noted. I'll wait for Bermicourt's response, and if he likes it too, I'll approve this. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, and cute that you mention opera fans for an actor. Yes, he appeared in one opera, and it would have been hooky to point out that spoken role (which a critic did saying that he was more impressive than the singers at that Salzburg Festival performance), - but too much a singular event to introduce the person to the public, for my taste. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:34, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Facepalm Yoninah (talk) 12:02, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- sure ;) - Thanks for tackling another psalm! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- FWIW I favour the initial hook because the of Barber of Seville is a well-known opera, the Royal Opera House is a top venue, and it was that combination that, in effect, launched Sophie Koch's international career, so a notable milestone. HTH. Bermicourt (talk) 13:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- sure ;) - Thanks for tackling another psalm! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, and cute that you mention opera fans for an actor. Yes, he appeared in one opera, and it would have been hooky to point out that spoken role (which a critic did saying that he was more impressive than the singers at that Salzburg Festival performance), - but too much a singular event to introduce the person to the public, for my taste. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:34, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- Noted. I'll wait for Bermicourt's response, and if he likes it too, I'll approve this. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- I like the original hook. It has all the ingredients of a good hook ... except you wouldn't click on it, Narutolovehinata5. And neither would I. But I also don't click on hooks about insects, footballers, or women "firsts". I have always appreciated Gerda's hooks for the variety they add to the set, just as insects have their place. If the hook is well-written, as this one is, I give it a pass. I promoted Ignaz Kirchner to the image slot because it had a great image – and made sure that the hook had all the right qualities of hookiness ... for opera fans. Please move this one along. Yoninah (talk) 11:15, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Yoninah and Bermicourt: Thoughts here? It seem Gerda is asking for a second reviewer. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- This isn't about page views though, and personally I am the type of editor that doesn't really care about page views: it's being featured at all that matters. But in any case, the proposed hooks are barely of interest to non-opera fans. Gerda, I understand that you are very passionate about this topic and want more people to know about it, but the hooks that have been proposed aren't really working out. Personally speaking, although debuting in opera young might be well-known to opera fans, it's not necessarily so, and it could be very interesting to others that people of such a young age can start so young in such a demanding form of music. And finally, a hook fact need not be unique as long as it's interesting, but then again, "interesting" is subjective. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Well, that's two supports against one oppose, so as promised, I'm approving this. There are no article issues and the article meets all the DYK criteria, so this is GTG. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- On promoting this hook, I changed the opera's name from Il barbiere di Siviglia to The Barber of Seville, because the latter is a well-known opera but the former will not be familiar to many people. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:26, 2 December 2018 (UTC)