- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
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Sara Braun
Sara Braun, around 1900
- ... that Sara Braun (pictured), a philanthropist and one of the first businesswomen in Punta Arenas, Chile, and her business partners were involved in the genocide of the Selk'nam people? Source: "...fue asumiendo el manejo de todos los negocios. Convirtiéndose en la primera empresaria de la historia de Magallanes" ["assumed the management of all businesses. Becoming the first businesswoman in Magallanes, (now Punta Arenas)'s history"] and "Pero a medida que su fortuna iba creciendo, también su pasión por la filantropía" ["But as her fortune grew, so did her passion for philanthropy"][1] "'Para resguardar su propiedad la Sociedad (La Sociedad Explotadora de Tierra del Fuego) contrató personal especializado para vigilar a los indígenas (Selk'nam) imponiendo una verdadera política de guerra (…) Este personal junto al de otras estancias sería el responsable directo, al menos, de la muerte de más de 300 indígenas.' (Informe de la Comisión de Verdad Histórica, 2008: 496). Por orden de Menéndez, el administrador de la 'Primera Argentina' Alexander Mc Lenan fue unos de los principales ejecutores de estas matanzas". ["'In order to protect their property, the Company (The Exploitation Society of Tierra del Fuego) hired specialized personnel to monitor the indigenous people (Selk'nam) and impose a true war policy (…) These personnel, together with those of other ranches, would be directly responsible, at least, for the death of more than 300 indigenous people.' (Report of the Historical Truth Commission, 2008: 496). By order of Menendez, the administrator of 'First Argentina', Alexander Mc Lenan was one of the main executioners in these massacres".[2]
Improved to Good Article status by SusunW (talk), Ipigott (talk), and Thsmi002 (talk). Nominated by SusunW (talk) at 17:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC).
Her article first: Interesting life, on excellent sources, Spanish and offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. The image is licensed and illustrates her well. I confess that I am not happy with the hook. It's focus is on the - yes, terrible, yes, newsworthy as recently discovered, genocide - for which she can be held responsible but possibly didn't even want? How about splitting the hook in two, one with a true focus on her life, and another on the genocide, with an image related to that, not one of an obviously rich woman? (Make a new nom, and ping me when ready for review.) - If you want to proceed with 2 in 1, please say something a bit more precise about her than a vague "philantropist" as a start - with no idea yet of place and time, nor of what she sponsored - and then a place in Chile we don't know (sorry for not knowing).- Her article: I don't need all name variants in the infobox. I believe "Russian" as nationality is misleading, the place of birth is more precise. (I actually rarely fill the "nationality" parameter, at all.) I don't need the pale "years active" either. Better "organizations", "residence", wow, a hause named after her ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:13, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt I'm sorry, but I do not understand. You want me to put a photograph of murdered indigenous people on the front page of Wikipedia? I would not support that, ever, but maybe I misunderstood. The irony of the hook is that she was a rich woman who supported numerous charitable causes, but was involved in a genocide. No evidence to suggest that she actually killed anyone, but as the largest shareholder, she could probably have convinced her brother and his father-in-law not to kill the native population had it occurred to any of them that that was wrong. In the age of exploitation, it is doubtful that there was a similar understanding of human rights. As for focusing on her life, the hook does say she was a businesswoman and philanthropist, which is pretty much what we know about her. I guess I could change that to public benefactor, but to my mind those are one and the same. Again, maybe I am misunderstanding, are you asking to create a new hook to leave out entirely that she was involved in the murder of indigenous people? That seems like whitewashing to me. Sorry for the confusion, but I chose to write about her to begin with because her life is the perfect allegory for illustrating that all people have the capacity for both good and evil. SusunW (talk) 20:40, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry about having confused you by my confusion. I misread the nom as for two new articles, - sometimes I'm blind. Fine, understand better. How about businesswoman first, then the place with some link because Chile is large (Patagonia?), then philantropist? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:49, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Now the light dawns, Gerda Arendt, no I did not write the article on the genocide. I cannot figure out how to easily flip the hook as businesswoman needs to be linked with "and business partners", which would mean that philanthropist is an afterthought tacked on after the genocide and you lose the irony. Because of the rules of overlink, I did not link the location in Chile, since the genocide was the more important element. I am leery of putting the region of Chile, as there will definitely be someone who will come along and say that is not verified in the sources. I already stretched it by using Punta Arenas (formerly Magallanes) and am expecting someone to pull it because of that. You are aware of the problem that occurred with Zdeňka Wiedermannová-Motyčková which was pulled from the queue and put on the errors page because a reviewer questioned the city being used instead of the region. Even though it had indeed been verified, discussed and was confirmed by a native speaker, they then stuck a country into the hook that didn't even exist at the time. So what was not an error became an error and had to be fixed by someone else because I was on an airplane and unavailable. The ironies and inconsistencies of DYK are impossible for me to understand. Though it puts philanthropist first, maybe?:
- Sorry about having confused you by my confusion. I misread the nom as for two new articles, - sometimes I'm blind. Fine, understand better. How about businesswoman first, then the place with some link because Chile is large (Patagonia?), then philantropist? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:49, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt I'm sorry, but I do not understand. You want me to put a photograph of murdered indigenous people on the front page of Wikipedia? I would not support that, ever, but maybe I misunderstood. The irony of the hook is that she was a rich woman who supported numerous charitable causes, but was involved in a genocide. No evidence to suggest that she actually killed anyone, but as the largest shareholder, she could probably have convinced her brother and his father-in-law not to kill the native population had it occurred to any of them that that was wrong. In the age of exploitation, it is doubtful that there was a similar understanding of human rights. As for focusing on her life, the hook does say she was a businesswoman and philanthropist, which is pretty much what we know about her. I guess I could change that to public benefactor, but to my mind those are one and the same. Again, maybe I am misunderstanding, are you asking to create a new hook to leave out entirely that she was involved in the murder of indigenous people? That seems like whitewashing to me. Sorry for the confusion, but I chose to write about her to begin with because her life is the perfect allegory for illustrating that all people have the capacity for both good and evil. SusunW (talk) 20:40, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- ALT1 ... that philanthropist Sara Braun (pictured), one of the first businesswomen in Punta Arenas, Chile, and her business partners were involved in the genocide of the Selk'nam people? SusunW (talk) 15:02, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
I understand, and approve, linking the city - why not? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
