- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
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Rainer Trost
- ... that Rainer Trost performed Mozart's tenor roles in Paris and Vienna, among others? Source: Paris 3 Mozart roles, Vienna 4 roles
- Reviewed:
to come
- Reviewed:
Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 22:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC).
Article is new enough, long enough, and within policy, but this hook is pretty awful. Tenor does job is not all that interesting, and, let's face it, performing internationally is what working opera singers do. Gerda Arendt, perhaps with a little digging some other more interesting fact might reveal itself? Perhaps some sort of critical assessment of his voice from a recording review or performance?4meter4 (talk) 02:07, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you. Article was translated, and when it was time to nominate, there was just time to format some things, not to expand. I'll see what I can do, but other things have waited for longer, such as improving a singer from stub status, and there are more articles waiting for the formatting step. Patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
- I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Ezo chipmunk, working on my reviewing backlog first. This is #2 in the article backlog. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- 4meter4, I added a review now, but it's fine - and could be quoted more - not really attention-grabbing. This one is known for Mozart roles, so why not mention that? We could name roles - some known, some unknown - and I tried to name locations to hint at importance. Being called to a place again and again tells us something about the impression he made. How could we say elegantly that he sang several of these at both places? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:36, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- @4meter4: Suggesting an alt: ALT1 ... that prior to starting his operatic career, tenor Rainer Trost studied law? Looking at the article, personally I thought that him studying law before becoming a singer was more interesting and unusual than performing in multiple places. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:09, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- Many singers did something else before turning to singing. This one sang Mozart Mozart Mozart and little else, - that is specific about him. (Others focus on Bach, or Wagner, or have no spcialty.) Any help to say that + that he received international invitations welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- I would disagree that he has done little else outside Mozart in opera. Just take a look at his diverse repertoire on opera base https://www.operabase.com/artists/rainer-trost-14368/performances/en and https://www.operabase.com/artists/rainer-trost-14368/repertoire/en His work encompasses Handel, Britten, Wagner, Berg, Donizetti, Rossini, Beethoven, Strauss, Stravinsky, etc. Yes, Mozart has been an area he has excelled in, but certainly not the only thing he has done. Recently there doesn’t seem to be much Mozart on his schedule, and he’s done other operas like Lulu at La Monnaie, Death in Venice at the Vienna State Opera, and The Flying Dutchman at Bayreuth.4meter4 (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- Honestly I don't think the average reader would really find it that interesting that he performed Mozart in different places. Remember that most of Wikipedia's readers probably don't know much about opera, so what's really needed is to highlight some fact about the subject that even these kinds of readers can appreciate. Having a hook that essentially requires deeper knowledge about opera and composers makes for a very narrow-focused and niche hook, which goes against the spirit of DYK's aim to appeal to the widest audience. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Repeating: A reader who would not want to know what kind of tenor some tenor is will not enjoy any of the article. 4meter4, what would you say for a hook? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda, are you trying to say that the hook is supposed to appeal to a smaller audience? Wouldn't the goal be to make sure that the article can be enjoyed by anyone regardless of background, rather than only those who have an interest in opera? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:16, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Well honestly I like Narutolovehinara5’s alternative suggestion based on the content currently in the article. It’s the most interesting piece of personal information that makes this particular singer different. There’s a lot of Mozart singing opera performers who travel to perform, and as I said above it’s a boring fact. The fact that he studied law but switched paths to opera adds a human element which is appealing. If you want to highlight his work in Mozart, I suggest finding a source which has something interesting to say about his work as a Mozart specialist (preferably a quote by critic or musicologist) and than using that as a hook. As it stands I am not sold on the Mozart roles in multiple cities idea. Being one of the most frequently performed opera composers, Mozart is the bread and butter of about half of all opera singers. They all travel to do his operas in cities around the globe. It’s not an unusual fact.4meter4 (talk) 12:24, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Go ahead, I have no time to argue. If I was Mr. Trost I'd not like something I left behind being the only thing said about my current work, but ... - Can we perhaps add German lyric tenor, to distinguish from heldentenors? - Very few sing Mozart well, but he does, compared favorably to the unique Fritz Wunderlich. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- We even have Mozart tenor, - the things I learn. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Well honestly I like Narutolovehinara5’s alternative suggestion based on the content currently in the article. It’s the most interesting piece of personal information that makes this particular singer different. There’s a lot of Mozart singing opera performers who travel to perform, and as I said above it’s a boring fact. The fact that he studied law but switched paths to opera adds a human element which is appealing. If you want to highlight his work in Mozart, I suggest finding a source which has something interesting to say about his work as a Mozart specialist (preferably a quote by critic or musicologist) and than using that as a hook. As it stands I am not sold on the Mozart roles in multiple cities idea. Being one of the most frequently performed opera composers, Mozart is the bread and butter of about half of all opera singers. They all travel to do his operas in cities around the globe. It’s not an unusual fact.4meter4 (talk) 12:24, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda, are you trying to say that the hook is supposed to appeal to a smaller audience? Wouldn't the goal be to make sure that the article can be enjoyed by anyone regardless of background, rather than only those who have an interest in opera? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:16, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Repeating: A reader who would not want to know what kind of tenor some tenor is will not enjoy any of the article. 4meter4, what would you say for a hook? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- ALT2: ... that Rainer Trost's 1992 international breakthrough was the role of Ferrando in Mozart's opera Così fan tutte in Paris with conductor John Eliot Gardiner? Grimes2 (talk) 09:32, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offer, perhaps:
- *ALT2a: ... that Rainer Trost became recognised internationally in 1992 appearing as Ferrando in Mozart's Così fan tutte in Paris, with conductor John Eliot Gardiner?
- ... or without Gardiner, or other combinations --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:22, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Again, hooks about performing roles. In addition, the hook doesn't address 4meter4's original concern about being a hook that's about a tenor doing his job. I'd heavily advise against it, unless perhaps a review could be found about his Ferrando role and some quotes about it could be mentioned in the hook. Something like "that a review of Rainer Trost's breakthrough role as Ferrando in Così fan tutte as [insert quote here]". Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:41, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Gardiner needs to be in the article, to start with. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:46, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I do like the alternative hook by Grimes2 because it is more specific and working with a major conductor like Gardiner is a more interesting fact. However, as Gerda pointed out that content is not currently in the article. If it is added with an inline citation to a verifiable source I would think we could approve ALT2.4meter4 (talk) 15:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I prefer ALT2a, it's more elegant. Gardiner's recording is mentioned in the article under Recordings/DVD. Grimes2 (talk) 16:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but the hook fact about it being his breakthrough role or being recognized internationally isn't in the article.4meter4 (talk) 16:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Done Grimes2 (talk) 17:42, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- The language you added doesn't match either hook. "Launched his international career" simply means he began performing outside his native country, whereas 'international recognition' or 'breakthrough performance' implies critical success in terms of audience reaction and response of others working in the field. As written, neither of these hooks can be promoted until the hook language matches what is in the article.4meter4 (talk) 02:46, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but the hook fact about it being his breakthrough role or being recognized internationally isn't in the article.4meter4 (talk) 16:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I prefer ALT2a, it's more elegant. Gardiner's recording is mentioned in the article under Recordings/DVD. Grimes2 (talk) 16:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I do like the alternative hook by Grimes2 because it is more specific and working with a major conductor like Gardiner is a more interesting fact. However, as Gerda pointed out that content is not currently in the article. If it is added with an inline citation to a verifiable source I would think we could approve ALT2.4meter4 (talk) 15:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Gardiner needs to be in the article, to start with. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:46, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Again, hooks about performing roles. In addition, the hook doesn't address 4meter4's original concern about being a hook that's about a tenor doing his job. I'd heavily advise against it, unless perhaps a review could be found about his Ferrando role and some quotes about it could be mentioned in the hook. Something like "that a review of Rainer Trost's breakthrough role as Ferrando in Così fan tutte as [insert quote here]". Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:41, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- ALT2b: ... that a review wrote "few tenors on disc can rival the German Rainer Trost" about his 1992 Ferrando in Mozart's Così fan tutte in Paris, with conductor John Eliot Gardiner? Grimes2 (talk) 20:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- This is a good hook, and it does exist in the article, but buried in the references. It's my understanding that the hook fact must come from content actually in the body of the article. Might I suggest moving this quote into the prose section of the article instead of placing it in a referential note.4meter4 (talk) 02:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
- Done Grimes2 (talk) 04:54, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Approving hook ALT2b. I expanded the context of the quote in the article because it was confusing, and gave a slightly longer excerpt with a better format to have it make more sense. I also altered the hook above slightly because the quote in the original version of the hook was missing two words ('the German'). It's important to quote text exactly with no omissions. Hook is interesting, within length and supported by an online ref and citation in the article. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
- This is a good hook, and it does exist in the article, but buried in the references. It's my understanding that the hook fact must come from content actually in the body of the article. Might I suggest moving this quote into the prose section of the article instead of placing it in a referential note.4meter4 (talk) 02:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
