Template:Did you know nominations/Like sheep to the slaughter
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by feminist (talk) 02:19, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Concerns with the article that remain unaddressed
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Like sheep to the slaughter edit
- ... that a popular misconception holds that Jews went "like sheep to the slaughter" during the Holocaust? Source: Middleton-Kaplan 2014, p. 3.
- ALT1:... that in Israel, Holocaust survivors were blamed for having gone "like sheep to the slaughter"? Source: Middleton-Kaplan 2014, p. 9.
- ALT2:... that Jewish resistance leaders exhorted Jews not to go "like sheep to the slaughter" during the Holocaust, because "for three lines in history... it is even worth dying"? Source: Middleton-Kaplan 2014, p. 6–7.
- ALT3:... that Abba Kovner exhorted Jews not to go "like sheep to the slaughter" during the Holocaust, to incite "a rebellion against the very use of that term"? Source: [1][2]
- Reviewed: México en la Piel
- Comment: The article's header image could be used, especially with ALT3.
Created by Catrìona (talk). Self-nominated at 22:27, 5 December 2018 (UTC).
This article is new enough and long enough. The hook facts for ALT0 and ALT1 are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no policy issues. I prefer ALT0 and ALT1 to the other hooks. A QPQ has been done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:18, 26 December 2018 (UTC)- With heavy heart I have to express serious doubts about the viability of this article. Its very opening is way off base:
"Like sheep to the slaughter" (Hebrew: כצאן לטבח) is a phrase which refers to the idea that Jews went passively to their deaths during the Holocaust.
No, "Like sheep to the slaughter" us a very old -- biblical, even -- phrase used in all kinds of contexts long before it was, indeed, used in the context of the Holocaust. At the very least it needs to be renamed something like Myth of Jewish passivity during the Holocaust or (less POVish) Popular perceptions of Jewish [something something]; and possibly it should be merged with Jewish resistance in German-occupied Europe. But it certainly shouldn't be titled Like sheep to the slaughter, as if it's an article about that phrase in general. It also has a somewhat essay-like tone with a dollop of RIGHTGREATWRONGS. EEng 04:37, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- @EEng: The first sentence in the article, which you are objecting to, was changed to its current version after helpful comments from Srnec on the talk page. Srnec pointed out that the Hebrew (כצאן לטבח) does not appear in the Bible (the similar Biblical phrase sometimes translated as "like sheep to the slaughter" is more commonly translated with different English phrases, which could be used in an article discussing religious usage). As for your suggestion that it be renamed something like "Perceptions of Jewish passivity during the Holocaust", I considered that but ultimately I do not think it would be workable. Given the heated disagreements between scholars about what "Jewish resistance" was, it seems difficult to believe that there is some accepted definition of what "Jewish passivity" was. So what would be the inclusion criteria? As for this phrase, its application in the Holocaust context is notable and has been widely criticized; the article reflects the sources in noting that. If there are any changes that I could make in order to make the article less "essay-like", please let me know. buidhe (formerly Catrìona) 08:07, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to be difficult, but the article isn't about a phrase, it's about a group of related readings of historical events, and maybe another group of contrasting readings, and the title needs to reflect what it's really about, difficult as that may be. The current title, plus the lead's assertion of a "myth" (it's not a complete myth, rather the truth was a complex mixture), set the tone of an essay-like endeavor. There are historical mischaracterizations that modern scholarship squarely labels myth, but this isn't one of them. I'd just like to see at least a better article title before this goes to the main page. EEng 15:33, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Buidhe, EEng, where does this stand now? It's been three weeks since the last post, and as far as I can tell this appears to be at an impasse. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:12, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
- Repeating that I raised this issue with great regret, but my objections (especially as summarized in my earlier post just above here) stand. At least the article needs a more accurate title, but I suspect that the attempt to find that new title will reveal underlying problems with focus and tone. EEng 17:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to be difficult, but the article isn't about a phrase, it's about a group of related readings of historical events, and maybe another group of contrasting readings, and the title needs to reflect what it's really about, difficult as that may be. The current title, plus the lead's assertion of a "myth" (it's not a complete myth, rather the truth was a complex mixture), set the tone of an essay-like endeavor. There are historical mischaracterizations that modern scholarship squarely labels myth, but this isn't one of them. I'd just like to see at least a better article title before this goes to the main page. EEng 15:33, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- @EEng: The first sentence in the article, which you are objecting to, was changed to its current version after helpful comments from Srnec on the talk page. Srnec pointed out that the Hebrew (כצאן לטבח) does not appear in the Bible (the similar Biblical phrase sometimes translated as "like sheep to the slaughter" is more commonly translated with different English phrases, which could be used in an article discussing religious usage). As for your suggestion that it be renamed something like "Perceptions of Jewish passivity during the Holocaust", I considered that but ultimately I do not think it would be workable. Given the heated disagreements between scholars about what "Jewish resistance" was, it seems difficult to believe that there is some accepted definition of what "Jewish passivity" was. So what would be the inclusion criteria? As for this phrase, its application in the Holocaust context is notable and has been widely criticized; the article reflects the sources in noting that. If there are any changes that I could make in order to make the article less "essay-like", please let me know. buidhe (formerly Catrìona) 08:07, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Buidhe: It has been a month since the last comment here. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:22, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Buidhe hasn't edited in more than a month and there are issues that remain unaddressed. Unless another editor adopts this nomination and is willing to fix the problems, it is with regret that this nomination is marked for closure. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:48, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
