- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
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Len Ford edit
- ...
that Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee Len Ford (pictured) reportedly "became a wino" and died at age 46 in Detroit?
- Reviewed: Tessa Hughes-Freeland
Improved to Good Article status by Cbl62 (talk), Wizardman (talk). Nominated by Cbl62 (talk) at 04:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC).
- Ya know, just in case, like, he has family still alive that might read this or something, might we not say something more tasteful like his 'life was "decimated" by alcohol'? EEng (talk) 05:22, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- I hear ya. He has been dead for 42 years, so there's no BLP issue, and the quote comes directly from one of Ford's close friends. I think "wino" is hookier, but if folks think it's insensitive, I'm ok with changing it. In my own defense, my more limited notion of sensitivity led me to avoid using the part of the quote about "stumbling around in alleys". Cbl62 (talk) 05:37, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- In hopes that EEng might promote me from hooker to courtesan, I propose the following alternative. Cbl62 (talk) 06:25, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- alt 1
... that the life of Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee Len Ford (pictured), who died at age 46, was "decimated" by alcohol?
- "Courteous courtesan" is the best I can come up with. EEng (talk) 07:20, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- I would leave the alcohol thing out of it. To me, it violates the guideline regarding placing undue emphasis on negative aspects of a person. He's done a lot of really amazing stuff, focusing on his alcohol addiction just doesn't sit well with me. How about some great achievements on the field? You could even do the fact about his wife being the first African-American to serve as a judge in Michigan. Cpuser20 (talk) 17:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- "Courteous courtesan" is the best I can come up with. EEng (talk) 07:20, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- alt 1
- alt 2
... that the ex-wife of Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee Len Ford (pictured) was the first African-American woman to serve as a judge in Michigan?
- alt 2
- alt 3
... that Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee Len Ford (pictured) held a NFL record with 20 career fumble recoveries at the time of his retirement?
- alt 3
- I hear you, Cpuser20, but here are my thoughts. The alt 1 hook already notes that the guy had remarkable accomplishments on the football field; otherwise, he would not have been inducted into the Hall of Fame. What strikes me as most hooky and interesting is that someone who had reached such heights had his life completely fall apart when his career ended. Your alt 2 hook doesn't work because he didn't hold the record at the time of his retirement. See here showing that Waterfield held the record with 23 fumble recoveries when Ford retired. And as for alt 3, the hook isn't even about Ford (and they were already divorced by the time she became a judge). Cbl62 (talk) 18:15, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Other editors can weigh in, I'm certainly not the last word on this, but I'm just uncomfortable with that being on the front page of wikipedia. To me it feels unduly negative and if I was a surviving loved one, I'd be very hurt by it. My suggestion to you would be to propose a couple of alternate hooks for when someone reviews your nomination. That way, if they feel the way I do, they're already in place and you won't want to wait that extra time getting them approved. Cpuser20 (talk) 13:21, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have to say I agree, though I'm not sure I can rationally explain why I'm saying this here but not (necessarily) on other perhaps comparable noms. I think it's a combination of the recency in time + the fact that he never was a true "public figure" like a politician or even NFL-level player. How about a hook that just gives his remarkable accomplishments as a player, and let the reader learn the sad coda when they read the article -- ALT3? (And now I see from ALT2 that there was an ex-wife, and that tells me for sure this "sad" stuff should stay off MP.) EEng (talk) 05:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Uh, he was an "NFL-level player." He was an All-Pro several times, a very public figure, and he died more than 40 years ago. We have featured hooks about people who have done far worse things than have a problem with alcohol. Millions of people do, and I really don't think it's so shameful that, 40-plus years later, we still need to "hide" the fact. This isn't the 1950s after all. Cbl62 (talk) 05:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry. Shows my ignorance of football. EEng (talk) 16:17, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- I have to say I agree, though I'm not sure I can rationally explain why I'm saying this here but not (necessarily) on other perhaps comparable noms. I think it's a combination of the recency in time + the fact that he never was a true "public figure" like a politician or even NFL-level player. How about a hook that just gives his remarkable accomplishments as a player, and let the reader learn the sad coda when they read the article -- ALT3? (And now I see from ALT2 that there was an ex-wife, and that tells me for sure this "sad" stuff should stay off MP.) EEng (talk) 05:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I continue to believe the alt 1 hook is fine and that the hypersensitivity to a person who has been dead for > 40 years suffering from alcoholism is unwarranted, but we could go with something standard and non-hooky, along the lines suggested, like:
- alt 4
... that Len Ford played football so well that he was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame?Cbl62 (talk) 05:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- I suspect we could do better. Is there really nothing else interesting about the guy aside from the fact that he was an alcoholic? I don't know the stats on this, but isn't this kind of a common thing among ex-NFL players? A result of all their injuries and all that? Bali88 (talk) 03:00, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- Here's a suggestion for another hook, based on his injury early in his first season in the NFL with the Browns:
- ALT5: ... that in his NFL debut season, Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee Len Ford (pictured) was injured so severely in a game he required plastic surgery to "virtually rebuild" his face?
- I think it's okay to use "virtually rebuilding" from the original quote as "virtually rebuild" here, but if someone knows otherwise, please say so. It also was interesting to me, because this kind of injury is basically unheard of now that helmets are used. It's an AGF hook; the newspaper source is offline, but that shouldn't stop this from being usable. (Note: striking ALT2 about his ex-wife for the reasons given.) Another possibility could be contrasting being passed over in the 1948 NFL draft, but being a key player in the 1950 NFL Championship Game. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:52, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Full review needed now that nomination has settled on ALT5 for a hook. (Struck other remaining unstruck hooks due to issues raised above.) BlueMoonset (talk) 02:55, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Promoted to GA on 17 August. Well referenced and neutral. All elements of the hook (ALT5) have inline citations; part is verifiable by online sources while the reference for quote is offline. No close paraphrasing apart from a few phrases that couldn't reasonably be worded differently. The image is free for use. QPQ has been done. 97198 (talk) 10:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
