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Template:Did you know nominations/John Shannon Munn

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Miyagawa (talk) 00:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

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John Shannon Munn edit

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A photograph of the Peter Pan statue in St. John's, Newfoundland, built in memory of John Munn's daughter

A photograph of the SS Florizel in Newfoundland's St. John's Harbour, prior to its 1918 sinking

Created by IgnorantArmies (talk). Self nominated at 16:19, 4 January 2015 (UTC).

  • New enough. Long enough. QPQ review done. NPOV. Dup detector finds no close paraphrasing issues, copyright violations or plagiarism. All paragraphs are cited as are the hook facts which check out with the sources. Interesting hooks. I prefer the first one, but perhaps slightly tweaked as ALT2 below? Edwardx (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
  • ALT2: ... that after John Shannon Munn and his three-year-old daughter drowned in the wreck of the SS Florizel, along with 92 others, her grandfather, the shipowner, had a statue of Peter Pan (pictured) made in her memory?
  • Looks good, @Edwardx:. That blurb is 201 characters, so slightly over, but changing "drowned" to "died" would take care of that. Thanks for the review, IgnorantArmies (talk) 03:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks, @IgnorantArmies:. After a bit more tweaking, we now have ALT3. There would now be enough characters for "drowned", but I doubt we could confidently state that all 94 died in that manner! Edwardx (talk) 11:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
  • (Not sure if this is waiting on my approval, but the above is fine, though I might just slip in an Oxford comma and flip the sentence order a little). IgnorantArmies (talk) 14:55, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Is it just me or is there an excessive number of commas in that sentence - think maybe too many details are being shoved in? More information can make hooks more interesting, up until the point where it becomes too confusing to read. How about:
ALT4: ... that after John Shannon Munn and his three-year-old daughter drowned in the wreck of the SS Florizel, the shipowner had a statue of Peter Pan (pictured) made in her memory?
ALT5: ... that John Shannon Munn, one of the few first-class cricketers from Newfoundland, was killed in the wreck of a ship (pictured) owned by his step-father?
Fuebaey (talk) 00:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
ALT5 works for me. IgnorantArmies (talk) 15:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
  • New enough, long enough, neutrally written, adequately referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nominator appears to have less than 5 DYKs, so no QPQ needed. I agree with the other reviewers that a shorter hook is punchier, so I'm striking ALTS 0-3. One problem with both ALTs 4 and 5 is that the ownership of the ship is not mentioned or cited in the article. If ALT5 is chosen, the image of the ship also needs to appear in the article. Yoninah (talk) 10:29, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks, @Yoninah: for picking this up, I definitely have more than five prior DYKs. The ship involved was owned by Bowring Brothers' Red Cross Line (not a separate company as far as I can tell, but just branding). I'm not sure of the precise ownership status of Bowring Brothers – i.e., whether Edgar Bowring had full (or even majority) ownership or not. However, our article on Edgar Rennie Bowring states that he was the company's chairman (and grandson of the founder), and every source I've come across makes it clear that it was for, all intents and purposes, his company – which is presumably why he was able to install his step-son as managing director. I cited this source and this article inline for the ownership of the ship/company (and a whole other chunk of stuff). I personally don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the ship was owned by Edgar Bowring, and it does make for a shorter hook. If you do feel that it's still a bit inaccurate, I'd suggest the tiny alteration below: IgnorantArmies (talk) 11:18, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
ALT6: ... that John Shannon Munn, one of the few first-class cricketers from Newfoundland, was killed in the wreck of a ship owned by his step-father's company?
  • ALT6 is fine, but the hook fact is not cited inline. The cite should go after the sentence, Early in the year, he booked passage from St. John's to New York City, via Halifax, aboard the SS Florizel, a passenger liner serving as the flagship of his company's Red Cross Line. Yoninah (talk) 11:53, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
It is, it's just at the bottom of the paragraph. Those two sources are used for all the information in the paragraph. IgnorantArmies (talk) 13:18, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Please read Wikipedia:Did you know#Eligibility criteria #3a. The hook fact must be cited at the end of the sentence in question. I see something about the ship name and New York route in footnote 1, but it doesn't say anything about a Red Cross Line. Perhaps two cites are needed for this sentence? Yoninah (talk) 13:40, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@Yoninah: new sources added at end of relevant sentence, one ("Bowring Timeline") quite explicitly linking John Munn, Sir Edgar, the Florizel, the Red Cross Line, and Bowring Brothers. Funny that DYK has stricter sourcing guidelines than FAC, but I guess it's to make the reviewer's job easier. IgnorantArmies (talk) 14:28, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Actually, just the hook fact needs to be sourced, plus at least one citation per paragraph. Thank you – the new cites are just the ticket. ALT6 hook refs verified and cited inline. ALT6 good to go. Note to closing administrator: No images go with this hook. Yoninah (talk) 22:35, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
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