- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Gatoclass (talk) 06:15, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
John D. Whitney
- ...
that a future president of Georgetown University, John D. Whitney, decided to convert to Catholicism while aboard a United States Navy ship?Source: "The Protestant churches are nothing. There is only one true Church, and that is either the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church...And so on the second of November, All Souls’ Day, 1870, I was baptized conditionally by Father Duranquet, and received into the Catholic Church" ("Obituary: Father John Dunning Whitney", p. 89)
- Reviewed: iPhone 11 Pro
Created by Ergo Sum (talk). Self-nominated at 00:20, 17 September 2019 (UTC).
I have returned this nomination from the queue as neither the article nor the source confirms that the subject decided to become a Catholic while literally aboard ship. Also, I think the hook is uninteresting anyway. Gatoclass (talk) 21:50, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Gatoclass: 1) Interestingness is a subjective consideration that will inherently vary from person to person. It is inappropriate to reopen a hook that is weeks old simply because you disagree with the initial reviewer. 2) The only logically plausible way of reading the source is in support of this hook. If you articulate why it does not, we can discuss that; if not, I would request that it be returned to the queue. Ergo Sum 00:03, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- Apologies Ergo Sum for not having the time to be a little more expansive in my comments last night. But I stand by what I said - neither the article nor the source confirms that Whitney decided to become a Catholic while he was literally aboard the boat. It would have been accurate to say he decided while serving aboard the ship, but what is unusual about somebody having a conversion experience while being employed at something? So I cannot see that this hook is salvageable. I think this one is going to need a new hook. Gatoclass (talk) 07:01, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Gatoclass: I'm very confused. The source says that he was aboard the Navy ship; while aboard, he encountered the book; he went to the ship's chaplain who told him to study and pray; he then requested to be received into the Catholic Church; when the ship reached New York (where it was sailing to), he was baptized. How does this not demonstrate he decided to convert while aboard the ship?
- Apologies Ergo Sum for not having the time to be a little more expansive in my comments last night. But I stand by what I said - neither the article nor the source confirms that Whitney decided to become a Catholic while he was literally aboard the boat. It would have been accurate to say he decided while serving aboard the ship, but what is unusual about somebody having a conversion experience while being employed at something? So I cannot see that this hook is salvageable. I think this one is going to need a new hook. Gatoclass (talk) 07:01, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- As far as interestingness is concerned: it's rare that a Catholic priest was in the military prior to becoming a priest; I'm sure conversions in the military happen, but they're rare enough that I don't know one instance of it; the circumstances of the conversion (catching a book that fell overboard) are very interesting. I think this is sufficiently clear-cut enough of a case that if you still feel otherwise, I'll go ahead and request a third opinion. Ergo Sum 17:00, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- As the promoter, I personally thought that the hook was verified well enough. I'm not all that interested in religion so I didn't really know if it was interesting, but I took the opinions of Ergo Sum and @Yoninah: into account. SL93 (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, I verified the hook fact just the way Ergo Sum explained it in his last post. I thought the hook was very hooky, much more than all the President of Georgetown University hooks that keep being promoted. IMO there was no reason to pull it and re-open the nomination; it could have been swapped to a later prep set and a notice placed at WT:DYK. Yoninah (talk) 17:56, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yoninah, he received the book in August and read it "over and over again" before deciding he was ready to become a Catholic in November, so over a course of about three months. Was he onboard all that time? (it was only a training ship, which means it probably spent a ton of time in port). On the day he made the decision, he says he "called to see Father Duranquet", the ship's Catholic chaplain. But he doesn't say he called to see him on the ship. And we know the ship was in port at the time, because the next day he went with the chaplain to the "church of the Paulist Fathers" in New York to be baptized into the faith. So the source does not support the hook, as I said we only know he was serving aboard the ship at the time, not that he decided to become a Catholic while he was physically aboard the ship.
- Gatoclass, I verified the hook fact just the way Ergo Sum explained it in his last post. I thought the hook was very hooky, much more than all the President of Georgetown University hooks that keep being promoted. IMO there was no reason to pull it and re-open the nomination; it could have been swapped to a later prep set and a notice placed at WT:DYK. Yoninah (talk) 17:56, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- As the promoter, I personally thought that the hook was verified well enough. I'm not all that interested in religion so I didn't really know if it was interesting, but I took the opinions of Ergo Sum and @Yoninah: into account. SL93 (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- As far as interestingness is concerned: it's rare that a Catholic priest was in the military prior to becoming a priest; I'm sure conversions in the military happen, but they're rare enough that I don't know one instance of it; the circumstances of the conversion (catching a book that fell overboard) are very interesting. I think this is sufficiently clear-cut enough of a case that if you still feel otherwise, I'll go ahead and request a third opinion. Ergo Sum 17:00, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- With regard to interest, again as I said, stating that somebody converted to a religion while serving aboard a ship is completely uninteresting, people make decisions to convert to this or that religion in whatever walk of life they are in, it's no more interesting that a sailor did it than a plumber or a bricklayer. With regard to reopening the nomination rather than raising the matter at WT:DYK, I do the latter if I think the issue can be quickly resolved and if I have time to participate in the discussion - neither was the case last night and I probably wouldn't be able to find time to participate in such a discussion right now either. But if you want, if I can't come up with an alternative hook in the meantime, I will open a discussion about the hook at WT:DYK tomorrow when I should have time to contribute to it. Gatoclass (talk) 19:50, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't see it possible that this discussion can be resolved without the involvement of additional input. Listing for re-review. For the record, when three non-admin editors agree as to basic factual claims of a source used in DYK, I believe it an abuse of admin power to hold up the nom because they disagree on a question that evidently is not a clear DYK rules violation. Ergo Sum 19:54, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
Something like this might work:
- ALT1: ...
that a future president of Georgetown University, John D. Whitney, decided to convert to Catholicism after reading a book dropped into the ocean by a newlywed and subsequently retrieved by a shipmate?Gatoclass (talk) 20:00, 19 October 2019 (UTC) - ALT2: ...
that a future president of Georgetown University, John D. Whitney, decided to convert to Catholicism after reading a book retrieved after falling overboard on a United States Navy ship?Ergo Sum 20:05, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- ALT2a: ... that a future president of Georgetown University, John D. Whitney, decided to convert to Catholicism after reading a book accidentally dropped into the ocean from a United States Navy ship? Gatoclass (talk) 20:24, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
- ALT2b: ...
that a future president of Georgetown University, John D. Whitney, decided to convert to Catholicism after reading a book accidentally dropped into the ocean by a newlywed?Gatoclass (talk) 20:35, 19 October 2019 (UTC)