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Template:Did you know nominations/Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by RoySmith (talk) 20:10, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

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Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra

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[[File:|140px|Schnittke in 1979 ]]
Schnittke in 1979

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 14:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article is a solid start for this piece, although it would benefit from additional citations from more expert sources. The reviewers cited don't seem to grasp Schnittke's music or possibly late 20th century music in general. Everything else article-wise is tip-top, but the hook is a little staid. I'm not sure how a reader unfamiliar with classical music can appreciate the "conventions and expectations" being "overturned" when they may not be aware of what these may be and the article also doesn't explain them. If I'm reading this correctly, the implication is that its single-movement structure is the vehicle for this overturning, but that kind of structure was hardly novel in 1979. CurryTime7-24 (talk) 03:05, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the review. You are the expert, I just heard the piece, couldn't believe it hard no article, and began. The hook (in general) is only to make curious - so I'm told again and again. The best solution may be you don't review but add the requested things from solid sources, and co-nom. The alternative I see is we run it as the usual unfinished short article (this is not GA, just DYK) and hope that someone else will be prompted to add the requested additions. - I have no time to dig deeper into this piece, and not the vocabulary - at least in English - to deal with the specifics of 20th-century music beyond Look at the world ); --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm not going to tell you how to write the hook because your preference should prevail. To be fair, the hook isn't impossible either. But the concerto is a typically Schnittkean oddity, so perhaps something more enticing can be found. I'll be adding some things to the article today. If you like, you can see if any of it would make good enough material for new ALTs. Otherwise, I'll just go ahead and OK your ALT0. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:24, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your expansion! You are now an author and shouldn't review, but you might add ALTs. Many good possibilitites in the content you added, and too difficult for me to pick one or two. We should probably avoid using what the composer said.
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
I'll leave it up to you. I'm happy to have been able to help with the article and hope the additions can be useful for this DYK. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 04:28, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I'll do the new review for this. I may do it in several stages, depending on time. Storye book (talk) 18:28, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I have checked through the article, and I agree with and accept the above review. I have listened to a recording of the piece, and I have added that recording to the External links section.

I get what Schnittke was doing. It's about doing to the 1979 current musical conventions, what Beethoven did to his own culture's accepted musical conventions such as Haydn, Mozart etc., which is what the reviewers tend to be looking at. And there are loads of references to other musicians who had a go at the same thing. But he is also allowing the pianist to play with all the possibilities of piano resonance. As listener, the best place to sit for the performance would be under the piano. I was riveted by this performance, to the end. And I really appreciate the article, because it worked as a good introduction to the piece, before I listened, so thank you, CurryTime7-24 and Gerda.

Due to the current hassle over hooks, shall we try to give them what they want, just for the sake of peace? Frankly, I should have thought that ALT0 would suffice to fit the current guidelines on "interesting to a broad audience", but to be on the safe side, shall we try to give them an ALT1 which would satisfy all of them? I'm going to pause this review and have a think. I'll get back ASAP. Storye book (talk) 18:46, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

OK, let's bite the bullet. (1) How about a hook which says that one bit of the concerto sounds like a blues nightmare? They'll get that. (2) Or, that the concerto includes grinding passages, jazzy elements and ghostly murmerings (or one or two of those?) (3) Or to really give them what they want, how about mentioning the reviewer who said the concerto contained "seasick microtonal lurches". (That last one is brilliant, I think - the phrase actually makes you feel sick. But a real musician reading that would pick up the allusion to the famous hostile reception of e.g. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, which is referred to within the piece). Storye book (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I am home, tired and behind with many things. Can you word an ALT1 and someone else can review it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:37, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
ALT1: ... that a reviewer of the Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra by Alfred Schnittke (pictured) said it contained "seasick microtonal lurches"? Source: citation no.12. The reviewer is Jed Distler: see his biography here.
to review ALT1. Storye book (talk) 19:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
@Storye book: I'm adding Seasick Microtonal Lurches to the shortlist of working titles for my eventual autobiography :) despite being a pass on interestingness guidelines, I'm not sure this one works out on sourcing quality. classicstoday.com seems okay on its face, i guess, except that it has affiliate links where you can purchase the music it's reviewing. That makes me trust its opinion quite a bit less. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 08:16, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
thank you for the laugh! ... and what about the original? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
I would have to agree with the original reviewer that it does fail the "broad audience" criterion as the policy is currently written. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 08:46, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
you mean as "interesting" is currently understood? ... the piano concerto by this composer with a German-sounding name premiered in Leningrad - not interesting? ... "overturning conventions and expectations" - not interesting? I'm just curious why you'd think so. The ALTs below are fine, just miss the unusual info that it is in one movement, and no idea of the time, leaving it in any time after the use of pianos in concertos which could be early 19th century to our time. Both ALTs also have no hint at the characteristic contrasts, mentioning only one - sort of quirky - aspect. Thank you for making the information acceptable, Storye book! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:16, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Comment: To be fair, Schnittke's surname was hardly unusual given that there was a large ethnic minority of Germans within the USSR; the country was officially multi-ethnic anyway. You may be aware that during this period there was a very famous Soviet pianist with a German surname active. One of the leading Soviet musical figures had even been a well-known composer with a French-sounding surname. And, again, I don't think Schnittke's concerto being cast in a single movement was unusual for 1979, even within the context of Soviet music. Aram Khachaturian composed a cycle of three single-movement "concerto-rhapsodies" during the 1960s, for example. Boris Tchaikovsky and Galina Ustvolskaya had also composed single-movement concerti decades before Schnittke. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:56, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
ALT2: ... that a reviewer of the Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra by Alfred Schnittke (pictured) said that part of it sounded like a "blues nightmare"? Source: citation no.1
ALT3: ... that a reviewer of the Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra by Alfred Schnittke (pictured) said it contained grinding passages and ghostly murmerings? Source: citation no.10. The reviewer is Dan Morgan. See his biography here Storye book (talk) 09:58, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
It's worth looking up the reviewers' credentials in relation to ALTs 1 and 3, in spite of the affiliate links. I have met a few very respectable musicians who have written descriptions of music on the packaging of vinyl and cd recordings. Thing is - no one but a well-qualified and experienced musician is capable of doing that job to the standard expected by purchasers of that type of music. Morgan and Distler both look OK to me, Morgan having been a career journalist, and Distler being especially experienced in performance. I have linked their biographies next to the respective ALTs. Storye book (talk) 09:58, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
ALT1a: ... that a reviewer of the 23-minute Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra (1979) by Alfred Schnittke (pictured) said it contained "seasick microtonal lurches"? Source: citation no.12. The reviewer is Jed Distler: see his biography here.
ALT2a: ... that a reviewer of the 23-minute Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra (1979) by Alfred Schnittke (pictured) said that part of it sounded like a "blues nightmare"? Source: citation no.1
The person who described the concerto as sounding like a "blues nightmare" was not just any reviewer, but Alfred Schnittke himself. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:06, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
ALT2b ... that the Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra was described by its own composer, Alfred Schnittke (pictured), as sounding at one point like a "blues nightmare"? Source: Sonic Overload: Alfred Schnittke, Valentin Silvestrov, and Polystylism in the Late USSR by Peter J. Schmelz, p. 173
ALT3a: ... that a reviewer of the 23-minute Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra (1979) by Alfred Schnittke (pictured) said it contained grinding passages and ghostly murmerings? 163 readable characters. Source: citation no.10. The reviewer is Dan Morgan. See his biography here Storye book (talk) 17:05, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Note on ALTs 1a, 2a and 3a: @ Gerda - I have put in as much info as I can. We are still missing shock-of-the new, contrasts and Leningrad from the new hooks. But this is an attempt to get the nom into prep without being thrown out, bearing in mind that the unfortunate effect of the current discussion is that we are going to have less freedom than before.
There is just no room for your three missing elements. If we put those three bits in, we will have to chuck out the hooky bit, and if we chuck out the hooky bit, we get chucked off DYK. That is the current reality, and we must adapt to it. Adapt and survive. That is why I am here, doing this.
There are other reasons for missing out the bits that you want. Russia is a political pariah right now, and the hook would probably get more hits, and be loved more, if we don't mention Leningrad (and I say this being a massive fan of B.A. Alexandrov and his soloists). "Contrasts" would not improve the hook because all music has contrasts, and we don't have the space to say that this piece has great big delicious punch-you-in-the-face contrasts. Shock-of-the-new (as with Beethoven's and Stravinsky's stuff, as referenced in the piece) is not mentioned per se in the article, otherwise maybe we could use it. What we do have in the hooks, from a musical point of view, is Schnittke's name, which will pull in the aficionados, whatever hook we use.
So let's (please nicely?) give the powers that be what they want. And theleekycauldron, please would you kindly stay with us to the end of this nom, so that the hook doesn't get summarily changed after promotion. We are trying so hard to get this right, and I think we should all be involved in getting it right, to the end. Storye book (talk) 17:05, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for waiting, y'all – quite the long week. I can approve ALT2b as interesting, offline citation accepted in good faith :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 07:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
I like that hook but think "own" is redundant and doesn't make it more interesting. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: The English language is often loaded, and "own" is loaded in this case. The word emphasizes that it was not a neutral outsider who made that apparently critical comment, "blues nightmare"; it was the composer himself, apparently criticising his own work. Superficially that is unexpected, so that "own" is the intriguing bit which will get this nom past the "interesting to a broad audience" test. Real musicians will know that "blues nightmare" is actually not a criticism; it means there are great harmonic scrunches in there - musicians' music, woohoo! - and that is the other loaded bit. But DYK is only interested in the superficial meaning of the hook, and that "own"-plus-criticism works for them. I'm happy with that. Are you? Storye book (talk) 09:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
I can't be exactly happy with something I don't understand, but you explained well why it is good even I don't understand. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:58, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. I have given a little more explanation (from the musicians' point of view) on my talkpage. Storye book (talk) 10:42, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, and seen. I'm just caught between the monstrous task to do justice to Hans Magnus Enzensberger - a literary giant, and so great tipps on the talk that should be followed! - and pleasant real life this weekend, guest, sunshine, singing tomorrow - next week. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
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