Template:Did you know nominations/Claudia Winterstein
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 08:36, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
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Claudia Winterstein
- ... that future legislator Claudia Winterstein's plans to become an architect were hindered by the Berlin Wall?
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Island No. 2
- Comment: Not quite done, I'll keep working – either one of the co-conspirators, of course, are free to workshop the hook or suggest new ones :)
5x expanded Gerda Arendt (talk) and Theleekycauldron (talk). Nominated by Theleekycauldron (talk) at 10:14, 7 July 2022 (UTC).
The article checks out when it comes to newness and length, and I didn't find any close paraphrasing. QPQ has also been done. The hook is interesting, but the relevant footnote does not appear in the relevant sentence but rather afterwards. There's also a minor linking error in the article (one of the sentences links to in West Berlin instead of West Berlin). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:35, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I also think the hook could be slightly reworded: "future legislator" is concise but also sounds off to me. Maybe it's because she's no longer a legislator? Maybe explaining where she was a legislator would work better. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:38, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- She was the CEO of her party in the national parliament (Bundestag), but I don't know how to say Parlamentarische Geschäftsführerin in English, - the article given in English is certainly not it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Vami IV informed me on WP:DISCORD that "Parlamentarischer Geschäftsführer" links to Party whip in English, so maybe that's what should be used in the article? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:28, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5 I also informed you right above, saying that it is certainly a bad correlation, probably because the German Bundestag is organized differently than the U.S. parliament. There is no "whipping", but leading her (small) party's fraction in parliament. If there is a good word for that in English, it can be used, but Party whip would be misleading.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:54, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, Party whips also exist in the UK parliament (indeed, a controversy with a deputy party whip was the direct cause of PM Boris Johnson's resignation). They don't literally "whip" members of parliament from what I understand, but rather merely direct party members to follow orders. I admittedly am not too familiar with party whips in general, but my understanding is that it's the closest equivalent. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- On the other hand, it's possible that "party leader in the Bundestag" would be a more appropriate description. I can't speak German and I'm largely unfamiliar with German politics, I'm only basing this on what Vami told me. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:06, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- (Asked to comment; do note: I am an American who has never been to Germany, does not speak German, and does not really understand Germany) If Wintersein's mandate was less enforcing party discipline in the Bundestag ("whipping") and more representing or leading her party's faction in the parliament, then perhaps "parliamentary representative" would suffice? Google Translate... translates "Geschäftsführer" as "managing director" - perhaps a translation in that vein would suffice? –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:07, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- (several edit conflicts:) I hope you'll forgive me not mentioning UK also, on a day pleasantly busy with company, church, biking, opera. I understand that it's not literal whipping, but caring for uniformity in votes within a party. - If the closest equivalent is misleading it should not be used, imho. - After edit conflicts: the normal way to translate Geschäftsführer in companies is CEO, - "managing director" might work. Anyway: that is a high position, and the weak "legislator" does no justice to it, if you ask me. But I bite my tongue about saying something about the subject where the subject is forced by circumstances (such as "stranded") instead of being active. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @Vami IV: according to de:Parlamentarischer Geschäftsführer, the post does carry a lot of duties that are similar to a U.S. House Whip – both are responsible for intra-party coordination and management. Both make sure that the party's legislators show up to votes on time. It looks like only the American position is responsible for getting members to vote the way they're "supposed" to, though. Otherwise, the German position has slightly more power, in that they prepare meetings of the Fraktionen und in Besprechungen. The U.S. whip basically just coordinates strategy with their party leader or speaker, in that respect. I'll also say that there does appear to be a de:Fraktionsvorsitzender more akin to what we Yanks would call the majority/minority leader.
- Also, for what it's worth, the machine translation of Parlamentarischer Geschäftsführer gives me this:
theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 06:17, 17 July 2022 (UTC)In Anglo-Saxon-speaking countries, they are called Party Whip (based on the fox-hunting whip) because they are responsible for disciplining voting behavior.
- (several edit conflicts:) I hope you'll forgive me not mentioning UK also, on a day pleasantly busy with company, church, biking, opera. I understand that it's not literal whipping, but caring for uniformity in votes within a party. - If the closest equivalent is misleading it should not be used, imho. - After edit conflicts: the normal way to translate Geschäftsführer in companies is CEO, - "managing director" might work. Anyway: that is a high position, and the weak "legislator" does no justice to it, if you ask me. But I bite my tongue about saying something about the subject where the subject is forced by circumstances (such as "stranded") instead of being active. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, Party whips also exist in the UK parliament (indeed, a controversy with a deputy party whip was the direct cause of PM Boris Johnson's resignation). They don't literally "whip" members of parliament from what I understand, but rather merely direct party members to follow orders. I admittedly am not too familiar with party whips in general, but my understanding is that it's the closest equivalent. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5 I also informed you right above, saying that it is certainly a bad correlation, probably because the German Bundestag is organized differently than the U.S. parliament. There is no "whipping", but leading her (small) party's fraction in parliament. If there is a good word for that in English, it can be used, but Party whip would be misleading.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:54, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Vami IV informed me on WP:DISCORD that "Parlamentarischer Geschäftsführer" links to Party whip in English, so maybe that's what should be used in the article? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:28, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- She was the CEO of her party in the national parliament (Bundestag), but I don't know how to say Parlamentarische Geschäftsführerin in English, - the article given in English is certainly not it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I also think the hook could be slightly reworded: "future legislator" is concise but also sounds off to me. Maybe it's because she's no longer a legislator? Maybe explaining where she was a legislator would work better. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:38, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm just gonna cut the line from the article if we don't get past this argument? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 17:25, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt, Theleekycauldron, and Narutolovehinata5: Where are we with this nomination? Z1720 (talk) 19:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, the original hook is fine, the main issue with the article right now is regarding Winterstein's role as a "Parlamentarischer Geschäftsführer". Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:40, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- What is the issue? The position is completely different in Germany (where there are more parties), so we can not use the English term for it without an explanation, and think the English term is plain misleading, so we better use the German (which we do), and perhaps explain. "Geschäftsführer" is "Executive officer". However we handle that: "future legislator" is too pale for my taste, it doesn't even say on a national level. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:49, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- Can someone point me to what the issue actually is? If anyone has any material changes they want to make to the article or hook, that should be arranged. If not, let's please move this forward. In any case, is this really relevant to the DYK criteria? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 15:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. In reality the original hook's fact was probably okay, my only concern was the vagueness of "legislator". Maybe just mention that she used to be in the Bundestag? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- Mentioning the national parliament would be better, because "legislator" could be also just in a town or state parliament. However, why not say that she lead her party there? Even if that party is small. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:03, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- That's what bogged down the nomination in the first place, how to translate "Parlamentarischer Geschäftsführer". We could probably just go with just mentioning the Bundestag without mentioning the "she led the party" part, since we can't seem to get into an agreement on how to translate that title, and keeping the German without translation is probably not ideal. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- I have no intention to argue further, tried to stay away as much as possible as just supported adding most of the content, but not the creator. Why can't we say what I just did, "led her party"? Breaking my promise to self no to word any hook here:
- ALT1: ... that after Claudia Winterstein dropped plans to become an architect because of the Berlin Wall, she led her party as a member of the Bundestag?
- Swallowing that I don't need the dropped plans at all :) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:07, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think ALT1 is good (save for one comma which I've removed). @Theleekycauldron: Are you okay with ALT1? I'm ready to approve it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
- Swallowing that I don't need the dropped plans at all :) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:07, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- That's what bogged down the nomination in the first place, how to translate "Parlamentarischer Geschäftsführer". We could probably just go with just mentioning the Bundestag without mentioning the "she led the party" part, since we can't seem to get into an agreement on how to translate that title, and keeping the German without translation is probably not ideal. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- Mentioning the national parliament would be better, because "legislator" could be also just in a town or state parliament. However, why not say that she lead her party there? Even if that party is small. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:03, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. In reality the original hook's fact was probably okay, my only concern was the vagueness of "legislator". Maybe just mention that she used to be in the Bundestag? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
- Can someone point me to what the issue actually is? If anyone has any material changes they want to make to the article or hook, that should be arranged. If not, let's please move this forward. In any case, is this really relevant to the DYK criteria? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 15:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- What is the issue? The position is completely different in Germany (where there are more parties), so we can not use the English term for it without an explanation, and think the English term is plain misleading, so we better use the German (which we do), and perhaps explain. "Geschäftsführer" is "Executive officer". However we handle that: "future legislator" is too pale for my taste, it doesn't even say on a national level. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:49, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, the original hook is fine, the main issue with the article right now is regarding Winterstein's role as a "Parlamentarischer Geschäftsführer". Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:40, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
looks good to me – gerda's running this show :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 17:38, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. ALT1 is approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
