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Template:Did you know nominations/Bohumil Herlischka

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 19:54, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

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Bohumil Herlischka edit

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5x expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:51, 10 April 2019 (UTC).

  • I've struck ALT0 as being insufficiently interesting to a broad audience. ALT1 is somewhat better, if only because of the mention of the tour stopping in Israel. I will leave the reviewing to another editor. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:03, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I object to the striking but leave it to someone else to undo it. A Czech stage director introduces the works by a underrated Czech composer to Germany, initiating him to be staged rather frequently, and this is so much appreciated that a cycle is done, comparable to the Wagner's Ring cycle, and the Zurich Mozart cycle, and you think that's not interesting? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:12, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it's interesting to people unfamiliar with classical music, which I'd assume is the vast majority of Wikipedia readers. Remember that we are writing for general audiences, not opera fans, and I don't think the typical reader would know or even care who these people are or what these songs are. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:23, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
These songs are operas - works of several hours each, and the staging of a single one is a giant and expensive effort, and now it's six! - and again, people who don't know what an opera is will not enjoy the article, but we can also tells those something special who recognize names as being Czech. - For some reason, you seamed to understand that for the artist Overton we should say something differentiating her work of giant sculptures from tiny pictures, - why not here? The Schoenberg was a great feat, no doubt about that (people though it could not be staged at all, and the premiere was music only), but the Czech, where the soprano said that he really knew about peasants in that area and how to get that on the stage, connects better to his origins. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:32, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry Gerda, but are you having difficulty understanding my point? You said that "people who don't know what an opera is will not enjoy the article", and that is actually a major issue! If anything, that kind of viewpoint would even further disqualify the hook fact from being allowed: a hook being interesting to a broad audience is required, and those that do not meet that standard tend to be rejected. DYK is intended for people who don't know about a topic, and writing hooks with that are intentionally made to be interesting only to a specific audience not only is against DYK rules, but defeats the whole purpose of the project. Think of it this way: you want to educate common people about classical music, right? Well if I was an ordinary reader, no way would I read the hook or the article since I would not get the point. We're trying to help you here Gerda: this is not intended to discredit you, your contributions, or your interests, we are only trying to help you avoid complaints and the like. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:51, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I can't help that my topics are kind of in a niche, and the hooks about them have a tendency to follow, - or would not say something specific to the topics. - I was trained to make only 2 comments in a discussion, sorry for a third. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:14, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

New day (from my talk, where this came up): If I have only one sentence to speak about a person's life achievements, I want that to be his best, regardless of that it may not be of interest to the general reader, just believing firmly that it should interest the general leader. For the sake of brevity (but loosing that it was a project that took 8 years to be accomplished):

ALT2: ... that Bohumil Herlischka staged a cycle of six operas by Leoš Janáček, presented at the Deutsche Oper am Rhein in the 1977/78 season? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:59, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, ALT2 doesn't really solve the issues I had raised above regarding broad interest. Again, it really only appeals to classical music enthusiasts, and I can't see people of other interests being fond of this one. Right now, one possible way move forward appears to be to go with a variation of ALT1. Something along the lines of:
ALT3... that Bohumil Herlischka's production of Schoenberg's Moses und Aron, which premiered at the Hamburg State Opera, was later performed in Israel?
Personally I think that a German production being performed at a non-European country could be appealing. If you don't like this suggestion, there are still other possibilities, like how one of his plays was created to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the Deutsche Oper am Rhein. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Since Gerda wasn't able to respond, I'll propose the following hooks below based on my above suggestion; she is free to reject them if she doesn't like them, or to suggest a reword:

ALT4 ... that Bohumil Herlischka directed the opera Behold the Sun – Die Wiedertäufer, which was commissioned for the 25th anniversary of the Deutsche Oper am Rhein?
ALT4a ... that Bohumil Herlischka directed the opera Behold the Sun – Die Wiedertäufer for the 25th anniversary of the Deutsche Oper am Rhein?
ALT4b ... that to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the Deutsche Oper am Rhein, Bohumil Herlischka directed the opera Behold the Sun – Die Wiedertäufer?

I just realized that had this been proposed earlier, the hook could have worked as a special occasion hook for April 19, but I guess it's too late now. Here are other possible alternatives that hopefully aren't too complicated:

ALT5 ... that Bohumil Herlischka served as the stage director of the Prague National Theatre from 1951 to 1957?
ALT6 ... that Bohumil Herlischka's staging of Weber's opera Der Freischütz (The Marksman) was met with strong opposition as he did not stage its traditional Happy Ending?
ALT7 ... that Bohumil Herlischka's 1964 staging of Der ferne Klang (The Distant Sound) was the first performance of a Franz Schreker opera since the banning of Schreker's music by the Nazis in 1933?

Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 16:30, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Late to this feast, - when I show playlist on my user talk, I'm out singing, and can't reply. We do have a massive misunderstanding. I didn't say find a hook, I objected to striking one, not being the reviewer, just because it's not fascinating for you. I fight less when I invested less time in an article, but this one was really hard for me to expand enough. Of all the hooks, take ALT1. I am still convinced that the original (or ALT2) is a better summary of this specific person's cultural background and enormous feat. I don't remember any cycle of six operas, and then unknown ones that are much harder to teach the performers! - All the Wiedertäufer hooks miss world premiere, and I'm not sure our average reader would deduce that from "commissioned". Nice hooks for the opera, but not for him. Perhaps I'll write it some day. Talking about Prague while his mature career was NOT there seems wrong to me. I saw a performance of Der Freischütz last year, also without happy ending. ALT7 is good, but again, says more about Schreker's work and fate than Herlischka, other than that he has courage. Yes, go for ALT7a (formatted), it mentions Nazi, that's always good for click numbers. I hope some sarcasm can be noticed.
ALT7a ... that Bohumil Herlischka's 1964 staging of Der ferne Klang was the first performance of a Schreker opera since the banning of his music by the Nazis? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
  • As I proposed several hooks, this will need a review by a new reviewer. @Serial Number 54129: Can you do so? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:24, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
    I've unstruck ALT0. I completely disagree with any notion that this is "uninteresting to a broad audience". Janacek is one of the greatest composers of the 20th century, but his operas are far less known than his string quartets. The fact is that Herlischka introduced Janacek's operas to Western european audience, setting the roots for this music to be performed with higher frequency there. Zingarese talk · contribs 22:03, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
The issue here though is not about Janáček, but the hook fact about staging of the six operas, and the hook doesn't even imply anything about the "introducing to Western audiences" part. And in all honestly, there are other facts mentioned in the article that are more intriguing to broad audiences (unlike ALT0 which in all honesty only really appeals to classical music fans). Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:21, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

It's been over a month since the last comment here. I've gone ahead and restruck ALT0 as I don't believe that Zingarese's comments sufficiently addressed the concerns I had about the hook (specifically, when they said that Herlischka helped raised Janacek's profile in Western circles, while the hook itself does not say that and is frankly too complicated as I don't think the part about the cycle is necessary). As a compromise, I am listing below a simplified version and making a request at WT:DYK for a new reviewer (I personally find both ALT0 and the ALT0a I'm proposing below as rather bland, but I'll let the new reviewer decide). Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

ALT0a... that Bohumil Herlischka staged six operas by Leoš Janáček at the Deutsche Oper am Rhein?
Better than nothing, but you are missing the most unusual aspect, that they were also played in one season. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:18, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to accommodate that request in the context of ALT0a, and honestly I don't think that would appeal to a broad audience. Reading through this again, ALT5, ALT6, and ATL7a might be our best options here. Would anyone new be willing to take a look at this? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Have it your way. (I think the original hook did just that.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:43, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Reviewer still needed for the ALT hooks. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

 Doing... starting a review for DYK policy, and multiple proposed hooks. Flibirigit (talk) 16:30, 5 July 2019 (UTC)


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - ?
  • Interesting: No - ?
QPQ: Done.

Overall: The article was moved to the mainspace on April 10, and nominated on the same day, therefore it is new enough. Length and sourcing are adequate. The article is neutral in tone, and I detected no plagiarism issues. Translations from the German language version of the article are properly attributed on the talk page. There is no photo used in this nomination. QPQ requirements have been met. I will start going through all of the proposed hooks now. Please allow me a few hours, as there are numerous hooks, and I may have to take a few breaks. Flibirigit (talk) 16:45, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

  • I have struck ALT0a, since ALT2 covers the same and is a better hook. I'm still working through the other hooks. Flibirigit (talk) 17:15, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT1 is interesting, and is mentioned in the article in two separate sentences. The first sentence "In the 1973–74 season, Herlischka staged Schoenberg's Moses und Aaron at the Hamburg State Opera" needs a citation at its end per DYK rules. The second part for being shown in Israel is cited inline. Flibirigit (talk) 17:19, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT2 is also interesting. It is mentioned in the lead section, but in the body of the article it does not explicitly state the cycle was performed at the Deutsche Oper am Rhein. The sentence where it is mentioned in the body also needs a citation. Flibirigit (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
    The source says under his name: "wo er in den 70er Jahren in Düsseldorf den ersten Janáček-Opernzyklus ausserhalb der Tschechoslowakei realisierte", translating to "where he staged the first opera cycle by Janáček outside Czechoslovakia in Düsseldorf in the 1970s". The Deutsche Oper am Rhein IS the opera house of Düsseldorf. I hope we don't need a ref that this is so? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:30, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
    I duplicated the ref to all sentences about the 1977/78 season. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:43, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT3 is reasonably interesting, and is mentioned in the article in two separate sentences. The first sentence needs a citation at its end. Flibirigit (talk) 17:28, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT4 and ALT4a are interesting, and are mentioned in the article. A citation needs to appear at the end of the sentence in which it is mentioned. ALT4b has consecutive wikilinks. I prefer the first two variants. Flibirigit (talk) 17:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I have struck ALT5 as too bland compared to the other hooks listed here. Flibirigit (talk) 17:37, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT6 is quite interesting, and mentioned in the article. A citation needs to appear at the end of the sentence in which it is mentioned. Flibirigit (talk) 17:39, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT7a is quite interesting, and mentioned in the article. I looked at the English source cited, and didn't see it mentioned. Did I miss something? Flibirigit (talk) 17:46, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
You did a great job! I focus on ALT2 because I think that project was perhaps dearest to his heart, + had the consequence that the composer's neglected works were played more in the Western World, - it was still Cold War time. I strike ALT7 because I moved the fact to Damiano Michieletto. My time is limited, so I won't look at the others for the moment and see if you can approve ALT2. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:43, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
The sentence in the body of the text says "In the 1977–78 season, all six operas were presented as a cycle, conducted by Peter Schneider in a stage design by Ruodi Barth", but does not mention the venue. Can we put the venue in that sentence? It is in the hook and the source. Flibirigit (talk) 20:04, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Sigh, yes, done, but I will certainly take it out after DYK, as a needless repetition from the first para of "Life". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
ALT2 is now approved as per review and comments above. I am open to approving other hooks (ALT 1, 3, 4, 4a, 6, 7) as discussed above. Flibirigit (talk) 21:22, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Promoting ALT1. ALT2 seems very limited to music aficionados. Yoninah (talk) 19:54, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
I know I shouldn't write below closing, but it makes me sad. Nothing wrong with Israel, but he came from Prague, promoted his home country's music, was influential in doing so. I'd like to tell THAT even if some will not be interested. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:06, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
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