- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:10, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
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Begotten (film)
... that E. Elias Merhige's film Begotten was first released in Montreal 1989, but various media outlets have mistakenly reported that the film's screening at the San Francisco Film Festival in 1990 was its first release?- ALT1:
... that singer Marilyn Manson hired E. Elias Merhige to direct several of his music videos after viewing a copy of his debut film Begotten? - ALT2:
... that Begotten's distinct visual style was accomplished through the use of an optical printer, which took a total of eight to ten hours for each minute of film? - ALT3:
... that Begotten is considered by its creator E. Elias Merhige to be a part of an unofficial series, with the second entry being the 2006 short film Din of Celestial Birds?
Improved to Good Article status by Paleface Jack (talk). Self-nominated at 17:26, 4 December 2019 (UTC).
Fascinating film and story, on excellent sources, French sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. There are so many great things one might say for a hook just in the first paragraph of the lead: no dialogue, black&white, horror, - how about some of that? Keep in mind that the reader needs to know rather soon that is a film. Did you not link Merhige on purpose? - My reactions to the proposed hooks: #0 leaves me cold, #1 is for Manson fans while others (around the globe) may not know who that is, #2 is one I'd approve if you don't want to spend time on the suggestion, #3 doesn't tell me "film", and I'm tired by reaching trilogy. - Great work, nice to meet you, - now let's show it at it best. Anything with an image would be attractive, - remember: no dialogue ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
- ALT4:
... that in spite of high praise from film critic Susan Sontag, Begotten has received little to no attention from film critics, with many mainstream reviewers ignoring the film entirely?- I moved your new hook down here. Please don't change things which have been discussed. (like, I speak of Manson, and there's no Manson ...) Now to ALT4: two reactions possible, you want to follow Sontag - whom you may know or not - and click, or you follow those who ignore. I'd still be more interested in the "no dialogue" aspect. Take your time, bedtime for me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. I was kind of working on end steam when I did this. I will work on this all a bit more in a little while.Paleface Jack (talk)
- Take your time, Jack, - I moved your comment above the closing line. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. I was kind of working on end steam when I did this. I will work on this all a bit more in a little while.Paleface Jack (talk)
- I moved your new hook down here. Please don't change things which have been discussed. (like, I speak of Manson, and there's no Manson ...) Now to ALT4: two reactions possible, you want to follow Sontag - whom you may know or not - and click, or you follow those who ignore. I'd still be more interested in the "no dialogue" aspect. Take your time, bedtime for me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
- ALT4:
Still working on redoing the hooks, but here is what I have rewritten it all to so far:
- ALT5:
... that the film Begotten contains no dialogue, being made to resemble an aged silent film; accomplished through the use of an optical printer, a process taking a total of eight to ten hours for each minute of film? - ALT6:
... that in spite of high praise from famed critics Susan Sontag and Jonathan Rosenbaum, Begotten has received little to no attention from film critics, with many mainstream reviewers ignoring the film entirely?
--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:01, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for these offers, which i numbered consecutively. For the moment, only ALT1 is out, we look at the rest. My favourite is ALT5, but please supply a year, and I'm not sure if we need to explain the printer here, - our objective should be to raise enough interest in a reader to click and want more. So, try ALT7 with a year, the creator, and less technical detail. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:10, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- talk, in response to your question on my talk: almost any year would do, - this is just a different hook talking about something c. 1990 - compared to let's say the 1950s. You could simply use the phrase "released in 1989" from the original hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Here's an ALT7, if not with all of the elements listed above (I didn't think the creator was necessary):
- ALT7:
... that the 1989 film Begotten contains no dialogue, and was made to resemble an aged silent film using a process that required eight to ten hours for each minute of film?—BlueMoonset (talk) 18:41, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- ALT7:
Thanks for that, I thought that would have been the right way to do it, I just wasn't sure.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:14, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
that's great, thank you, both! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:47, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Yoninah The wording is different but it is in the first paragraph of the post-production section ("Begotten had been envisioned by Merhige as a silent film depicting "a time that predated spoken language and communication being made on a sensory level.").--Paleface Jack (talk) 01:11, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Paleface Jack: yes, I saw that, but that doesn't combine "aged" with "silent film" as you do in your hook. Regarding the dialogue, it would just be best to add an inline cite to the lead if you're not going to repeat it in the body of the article. Yoninah (talk) 01:14, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Done--Paleface Jack (talk)
- @Paleface Jack: sorry, I don't see anything about "aged" in either source. I suggest you drop it from the alt. I suggest this tweak:
- ALT8:
... that the 1989 film Begotten, which contains no dialogue, was made to resemble an old black-and-white film using a process that required eight to ten hours for each minute of film?Yoninah (talk) 12:34, 22 January 2020 (UTC)- ... while I have a hard time to even notice a difference ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:15, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
Here's a more interesting wording of that if it helps:
- ALT9:
... that the 1989 film Begotten, which contains no dialogue, was made to resemble what the director called "a time that predated spoken language", a process that required eight to ten hours for each minute of film?--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Paleface Jack: thank you, but now the connection between the second and third clauses isn't clear. The hook could just as well end after the quote. Yoninah (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- ALT9a: ... that the 1989 film Begotten was made to resemble what the director called "a time that predated spoken language"?--Paleface Jack (talk) 01:27, 23 January 2020 (UTC)