Template:Did you know nominations/Annie Rowan Forney Daugette

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 01:07, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Annie Rowan Forney Daugette edit

(

)

... that Annie Rowan Forney Daugette, the designer of the Seal of Alabama, was described as the "Betsy Ross of Alabama"?

ALT1:~~... that Annie Rowan Forney Daugette began a campaign which resulted in the return of the flag of the Independent State of Alabama from Iowa to Montgomery?~~
Reviewed: Geranium lucidum
Comment: Created for Women in Red Women in Halls of Fame editathon

Created by Z105space (talk). Self-nominated at 07:05, 30 June 2016 (UTC).

Date, length, and citations check out. I personally prefer the second hook due to its broader accessibility, since I suspect most non-Americans will not be familiar with Betsy Ross, but both meet the criteria and can be accepted in good faith from a subscription-only source. Only thing missing is a QPQ and then it should be good to go. Canadian Paul 18:19, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

@Canadian Paul: QPQ has been done. Z105space (talk) 18:35, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Great. DYK good to go with either hook. Canadian Paul 18:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Transferred thread from WT:DYK

@Z105space, Canadian Paul, and Cwmhiraeth: I just swapped Annie Rowan Forney Daugette in Prep 1 with Cynthia Cooke that was in prep 3, to give the Daugette hook time to sort out an issue before it goes to queue. The article, and therefore the hook, need clarification on the term "Independent State of Alabama". The link given in the article merely points to the Flag of Alabama. I can find nothing in my own sources that say anything formally existed (to be capitalized) by that official name. The Encyclopedia of Alabama explains that on January 11, 1861, the state of Alabama was the 4th state to sign the Ordinance of Secession from the United States. The Confederate States of America, however, did not actually officially form until February 4, 1861. Yes, Alabama had declared its independence from the United States. And it was not a state of the Confederacy. Therefore...it was not a state of anything, but was an independent nation for less than a month. The only thing that capitalizes Independent State of Alabama is the Alabama Women's Hall of Fame in listing Daugette. Temporary it was, but was not a state. And it seems inappropriate to capitalize the word "independent" in either the article or the hook. The wording needs to be corrected, and sourcing needs to be found that makes it clear in the article. — Maile (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Here you go Jan. 11, 1861: Delegates vote (61-39) to secede, becoming the fourth state to do so. The Republic of Alabama is declared.— Maile (talk) 23:51, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

@Maile66: Done. MWright96 (talk) 08:46, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Also - in regards to a statement in the article - I realize the article creator was going by the hall of fame information when giving credit to United States Senator J. Lister Hill for the conflict being coined the "War between the States". However, it should be noted that he was not a United States senator until 1938. According to Names of the American Civil War, it was being called by that term by some while the war was actually happening, and that some Confederate memoirs also used that term. — Maile (talk) 23:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Ah, so you are the one who had me scratching my head wondering how the heck I missed reviewing one of the hooks I promoted to the queue! Thank you at least for solving the mystery. Gatoclass (talk) 23:50, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh, my gosh! How weird, both of us working that prep at the exact same nano minute. — Maile (talk) 00:03, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

@Maile66: Note, there was a dispute a couple years ago over a user trying to make articles on the 'independent countries' that each state was prior to officially joining the Confederacy. See Special:Undelete/Template:Pre-CSA states and the associated articles. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 02:54, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

@MWright96:, I have pulled this from prep. It seems there are multiple issues with this article. Which I can perfectly understand, because researching Alabama history is somewhat limited in what you can find. Here's the issues, most of which have been mentioned above:

Original hook. I was going to substitute that in the prep area, since it seemed like an easy solution. However, according to the State of Alabama the Great Seal in use was designed in 1817. There was another seal used during the Civil War, but Daugette was not even alive then.

I found this source which states this passage: As a result of a campaign initiated by Annie Forney Daugette, the Great Seal of Alabama, with alterations by Mrs. Daugette, was re-adopted in 1939. MWright96 (talk) 20:55, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

In regards to her being instrumental in the return of the flag of the Republic of Alabama, I think there needs to be more independent sourcing, in regards to exactly how she was involved. All I found was the Official Record of the Iowa Secretary of State, which I inserted under "Further reading", that details the return of the flag, does not mention her at all.

These details need to be addressed in the article. — Maile (talk) 13:10, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Primary hook is OK - GF that the walled source refers to Daugette as the "Betsy Ross of Alabama". The other aspect of the hook, that she designed the seal of Alabama, is also GF to the source, though confirmable by other sources as well like the Gadsen Times [1], the UA Library [2], etc. ALT-1 hook is not okay, no evidence that a polity called "the Independent State of Alabama" has ever existed. If "independent state" is meant to be lower-case, then it is POV and/or OR; there is no RS that affirms Alabama was ever an "independent state" beyond Alabama's unilateral declaration of independence. I can call my backyard an independent state, that doesn't make it one. By domestic law, Alabama was never recognized by the United States as an independent state, confirmed in Texas v. White. If we reject the competence of the U.S. to determine the independence of Alabama, then it's a question of international law which means Alabama should meet either the constitutive or declarative qualifications of state recognition, and it didn't meet either. Even Ciskei has a firmer claim to be called an "independent state" as it was recognized as such by at least one other state, which is one more than Alabama. The term "independent state" is revisionist. Everything else (copyvio, etc.) presumed okay based on CanadianPaul's review.LavaBaron (talk) 21:11, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Maile66, have all the issues you wanted addressed when you pulled the article been taken care of? If not, what's left to be done? BlueMoonset (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for asking BlueMoonset. I was just looking through this. I think MWright96 resolved the issue of the great seal of Alabama with the new PDF source above (which he/she also put in the article). It's from Jacksonville State University and does indeed say Annie Rowan Forney Daugette played a part in the 1939 design of the great seal. Yes, go ahead and promote this back into a prep. And, MWright96, thank you for your diligence and quick responses to all of this. You did good. — Maile (talk) 22:52, 14 July 2016 (UTC)