Talk:Yao Ming/Archive 1

Richest Celebrity in China

"He is one of China's best-known athletes, with sponsorships with several major companies, and he has been the richest celebrity in China for five straight years."

• Yao Ming does not live "in China". Is he the richest Chinese person period? Richest person born in China who is famous? How is this measured, provable, or sourced?--71.7.232.192 (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Picture's caption

Instead of it saying "Yao takes question from reporters" shouldn't it say "Yao takes a question from reporters" or "Yao takes questions from reporters" -Blackmanor1000 —Preceding comment was added at 01:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Changed. By the way, if you're dissatisfied, you can be bold and change it yourself. The article is not mine, after all. Noble Story (talk) 01:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

picture

wah??? The Samphexer 02:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

That is in fact a horrible picture, can someone please replace it?

I changed the part that mentioned Chinese voters influencing Yao's selection to the All-Star team. Quite frankly, this statement is always made in ignorance and comes up far too often when Yao's All-Star selections are discussed. I got the figures from a USA Today article online which you can read at this address: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/allstar/2004-01-29-starting-lineups_x.htm

These complaints about Yao's All-Star selections are obviously racist. It perhaps suggests resentment which some white fans might feel seeing an All-Star starting line-up that features more Asian players than white. Unfortunately, I don't have a link to back this up, so I'll save that for an editorial and not for an encyclopedia entry. This misconception about where Yao's votes are coming from must be cleared up however.

Should it be mentioned, that Yao carried the Chinese flag during the opening ceremony of the 2004 Olympics?

I wouldnt say Yao has had sucessful season. Looking at his statistics and his relatively smallish improvement compared to similarily/younger aged players (Lebron James, Wade, Amare).

I don't think Rudy was fired. Rudy had to leave for cancer treatment during the 2003-2004 season. http://www.sptimes.com/2003/03/27/Sports/Coach_is_sidelined_by.shtml

There should be mention of Asian voters for Yao's All-Star vote totals.

I would say Yao has had a successful season, since his Rockets are successful and he is maintaining perhaps the second best stats of a NBA center, after Shaquille O'Neal. You have to take into account that the man has not had rest for the past several summers, with the Chinese government wanting him to participate in all sorts of international basketball competitions. Wade, James and Stoudemire are exceptional players and you cannot expect Yao to show similar improvement. king 01:09, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wang Zhizhi is kicked out from Chinese national basketball team after his stay for NBA summer games.

Hi everyone, I made some statistical additions to the page (all from <http://www.nba.com/playerfile/yao_ming/>) and corrected some basic grammatical errors. I cited NBA.com as a reference at the bottom but I don't know how to reference stuff beyond that. -Shenzhou.

Reason for height

You would think that in a country with over a billion people, that at least some people may be over 7'0"? Also, with better nutrition, he should be taller than either of his parents.

Check this, as it may answer your question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantism#List_of_notable_.22giants.22

I have heard from other sources that the Chinese government encouraged/forced their men's and women's team centers to mate to produce an offspring that was large. Has anyone else heard this, or have substantiable evidence of this?

No force was used as far as I know. But there was government-sponsored dating service back in 1960s. :-) --Leo 19:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the book Operation Yao Ming, the state arranged/encouraged the marriage of Yao's parents. It doesn't go so far as to say they were forced...being loyal patriots there was no need to force anything. Fang Feng <3 Mao —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.96.252 (talk) 05:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yao Ming's incredible stature: an analysis.

Yao doesn't have any apparent hormonal anomalies such as Acromegaly. His stature is the result of good genetics (likely recesive) and even better semi-mysterious environmental factors.

Quite Frankly, he is the sort of person you could expect to see when you realize his mother is 6 ft 3, and his father is 6 ft 10. This would give him a genetic height potential of 7 feet... yet he has grown half a foot taller than this! (Both Yao Ming's parents were born before 1960s, a time when virtually everyone in China was starving. I would suspect that Yao Ming's Parents would be *Much* taller than what they are now if they had been given sufficient food during their childhoods)

Ming, though listed as 7 ft 6 [his actual height], should really be listed as 7 ft 7 on his NBA Profile, as standard height stats for most NBA players are measured with shoes on.

If he is still growing, then I would start to worry about a pituitary disorder. Usually by the age of 22 to 26, the long bones are completed in their final form--Unless he has delayed epiphyseal fusion

Whatever the case, 7 ft 6 is about the most extreme height people are able to attain geneticaly, without some sort of pathology following.

Technically (and as you probably already know), you would expect the child of parents who were 6'3 and 6'10 to be somewhat shorter than 6'10. Children of tall parents tend to be tall, but not quite as tall. This is the exact paradox that led scientists to discover regression to the mean. That said, very tall parents are certainly more likely to have a very very tall child than shorter parents are.

Sorry about the pedantry. I appreciate your contribution, since this is the information I came to the page hoping to find. Inhumandecency (talk) 18:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yao Ming: Physical dimmensions

Ht. 7 ft 6 [229cm] barefoot.

Wt. 310 lbs [141kg]

Shoe: US Men's size 18 [36cm]

Wingspan: 7 ft 5 [227cm]

Standing Reach: 9 feet 8 [297cm]

He isn't quite 229cm because that is what Shawn Bradley is and Shawn is slightly taller. Ithink the 226cm was the best measurement.218.166.42.120 (talk) 13:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

While he may seem shorter than Shawn Bradley, the NBA does list him as 2.29m. If another authoritative source can be found listing him as 2.26m then changing the height and the source would be acceptable. As it is the only listed source does not match with your estimation of his height. Jody R Franklin (talk) 23:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Operation Yao

I've added a passage about the controversial new book Operation Yao [1]

I believe this book will at least cause some great controversy in the sports and political world over the next while. (Brodey)

This is defenitely a pretty startling revelation, should cause alot of controversy. -Rich B.

There is no need to put unsubstantiated, contraversial claims. Especially from sensationalistic sources.

"In Yao's case, I don't have any proof ..." Larmer was quoted, "(but) in that period of time in the 1990s, they were using all kinds of experimental stuff to enhance players' stamina and strength." - since he doesn't have proof, it should not be sourced.

I wouldn't argue that the book is anything but an unreliable source for information, but it is a subject that many have speculated on. That being said, I think the book is at least worth a mention if nothing more. Anytime an athlete has a book written about him I would think it's fairly noteworthy.--DavidFuzznut 06:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The most dominant in history?

Gentlemen! Yao Ming is an up and coming center and an all-star, but the most dominant in the history of the game? COME ON! His 2006 statistics are good (22 PPG & 10 rebounds) and are similar to a young Patrick Ewing. He cannot even approach the dominance of of Shaq (29 PPG & 13.5 rebounds and 2.7 blocks and %59 shooting!) or Hakeem (24 PPG & 14 rebounds, 4.5 assists & 4.9 blocks! 2.1 steals!) in their prime. I did not even bring up Jordan, Bird, McHale, Magic, Kareem, Russel, Chamberlin, West or Duncan, Dr. J et al. I do not need to. Different Rules, Different players in different periods. Cant compare. There was a reason Chamberlin score like 30 points a night. I'd like to see him score 30 a night in todays world. Imagine if Yao ming played in the 50s or 60s.

Let Ming grow into being a quality player who will top out at 24 PPG & 11 rebounds and stop all this, "Greatest Ever" nonsense . He will continue to improve and be a quality center, but he can never be the most dominant player in history. He is too slow, too nice and cannot jump.

These complaints about Yao's All-Star selections are obviously racist. It perhaps suggests resentment which some white fans might feel seeing an All-Star starting line-up that features more Asian players than white. Unfortunately, I don't have a link to back this up.....

You can't be serious about white fans, if this were true then a white center would be in the top three in voting. If there is any racism, I would suspect it would be black fans, after all Yao has beaten Shaq, although Shaq had better numbers.

Yao Ming is not likely to become the most dominant in history, but let's not judge too soon as he is still young.

lol, Yao Ming is far from the greats. You guys are joking right? i hope you are, because anyone who knows ANYTHING about basketball knows Yao Ming isn't even in the top 20 in active NBA players. Yao Ming isn't even the best on his team, Tracy McGrady is. Yao Ming is good, but he's not at that level, and he doesn't have the physical fitness to even reach that level. The only reason Yao Ming even makes the all star game is because billions of chinese and asian people vote for him, and the only true centers even left in the NBA are Shaq and dwight howard lol —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.114.6.117 (talk) 05:44, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

Height at Birth

He was 1.2 meter (120 cm) long at birth??? are you sure??

Indeed, that is 4 feet, I did some searching and the largest birth on record is 76 cm, someone clearly got this fact wrong... I removed mention of it...

Merged content from Colin Pine

I've merged some of the content from Colin Pine as an entire section (per this AfD), as well as two external links, but I'm sure you guys will know more about what is and isn't appropriate in this article. --Deathphoenix ʕ 16:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The original move was to delete the Colin Pine article, which at the time, was quite short. No one agreed with the delete, so most people voted to merge, but that was before the article was expanded. The discussion was supposed to move to a how and if the article should be merged discussion, but it did not attract much interest.

I feel strongly that this should be a separate article. It sticks out like a sore thumb in the Yao Ming article, and there's enough material now for its own article. I don't want to move it to its own article by myself, but if you agree, I'd very much appreciate it if you did.--DownUnder555 15:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... I agree that as it is, it sticks out like a sore thumb. However, the AfD talked about whether Colin Pine was notable enough by himself to warrant his own article. There were more merge votes than keep votes, and all the merge votes said that Colin has no notability outside of his association with Yao Ming. I'd be uncomfortable with going against the AfD, but like you said, the Colin Pine section really sticks out. I think the best thing to do would be to cut back the content on Colin and mesh it in with the rest of the content. Maybe move him up to the section around where Yao Ming first started in the NBA, because Colin would have been assigned to him at that point. IMO, disputing the merge doesn't require a WP:DRV, because a keep vs. merge debate doesn't require an AfD. I've stated my opinions, but I'm just a neutral guy who doesn't know too much about Yao Ming (beyond what I've seen in the papers) or Colin Pine, so hopefully the regular contributors to this article can chime in. :-) --Deathphoenix ʕ 17:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not true. 4 merges or given in contrast to delete when the article was still very short; this means both the fact that the initial vote was to delete and that the article was still very short influenced the outcome of the vote, which is not the fault of any of the voters, but makes the conclusion of the vote of questionable validity. One vote was open to either merging or expanding, and there was an additional two keep votes that did not explicitly say that they were keep votes. Let's just slow down the process, put the article back with a notice pointing to an on-going discussion about merging the article, let it sit for a week, and see what people think. If the conclusion is still to merge, all we've done is come to a firmer conclusion.--DownUnder555 14:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The Colin Pine section really does stick out. The suggestion to leave the merge discussion up for a week does sound reasonable though. If the consensus is to merge, then I'll take responsibility for putting it back. Piepukipie 09:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

height change issue

there is alot of debate abou Yao's height... which usually fall between 7'5 abd 7'6. 7'5 is supposedly his old measurement and it is said that he grew an inche since then. The NBA site had him at 7'6 and 310 pounds but recently reverted back to his rookie masurements for whatever reason and i doubt that he has shrunk and inch and dropped the weight he has gained. However, i think we should give him the benefit of the doubt(go with the new measurements) and put him at 7'6. --210.49.123.40

We are not here to speculate about how much he has supposedly grown. Read the first and second sentences of Wikipedia:Verifiability. Thanks. --Downwards 22:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The NBA's web site currently indicates Yao Ming is 7'5"/2.26 m (2.26 m converts to 7' 4"), in another location it currently indicates he is 7' 6". CBS Sports indicates Yao Ming is 7' 6"/2.29 m (2.29 m converts to 7' 5"). Numerous other web sites offer conflicting heights as well.

The first three sentences in the box at the top of Wikipedia:Verifiability read:

"This page is an official policy on the English Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page."

The first two sentences in the article itself read

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources."

Reverting edits that involve one height or the other is one thing; Downwards putting a vandalism tag on the other user's talk page is quite another. Accusing another editor of vandalism is very inappropriate when their edit has been made in good faith and is supported by verifiable sources.

--A. B. 05:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I changed back Yao's height to 7'6" i'd say 90% of sources list him at that height:[2] [3] not to mention the rocket team confirimed themselves they had measured yao at 7'6". As someone had stated the official nba player page for yao is somewhat incorrect. For some reason they have reverted his measurments to his rookie year including his weight when it is obvious yao has bulked up from his rookie year. Yet on other parts of nba.com he is again listed at 7'6" indicates Even go to head to head comparions section of the player page[4] and he is again listed at 7'6". Look at Yao player bio from nba.com all star game 2006 [5] again 7'6". I'd say 7'6" would be the more accurate listing. Duhon 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I deleted most of the references for Yao's height because I think that one source is plenty. 6 is excessive,

There is not a single credible reference for Yao's height > an NBA list height is not an actual height. No intelligent basketball fan is unaware of that. Yao was measured at 7'5" at the draft camp barefoot and 7'6" in shoes, he was 22 at the time. His arm span was 7'4.75" . What these editors who constantly list Yao at 7'6" want us to believe is that a 22 year old man grew taller than his own armspan by an extra inch and he is not just listed at 7'6" because that was his height in shoes (nba players are listed as their height in shoes often rounding that figure up) which also happened to make him the equal tallest in the NBA.

NBA height is a lot like WWE height, there is a listed height and an actual height. I suggest that this reality is reflected in this page.

Yao has claimed he grew since 22, but Shawn Bradly has also said that he is 2 inches taller than Yao and Yao is not 7'6". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.6.189.118 (talk) 13:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

there was a photo of bradley standing shoulders to shoulders with yao a few years back and Yao looked exactly as tall as Bradley <---at celebrityheights.com, albeit bradley have higher shoulders which give the impression he is taller, yao has a larger head, and they are exactly the same height, in fact Yao is taller by a hair or two, so bradley was sadly mistaken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.208.193.123 (talk) 05:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Untrue, http://www.nba.com/media/rockets/yao021121-2.jpg this picture shows that Bradley is easily taller than Yao even when standing further away than Yao. An honest person with intelligence could only conclude that Bradly is indeed taller than Yao. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.6.188.120 (talk) 13:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

religious preference

somebody up there mentioned that Yao is not a buddhist because he is neither a monk or a vegeterian. That is wrong, because you dont have to be a buddhist by shaving ur head or just eating fruits. You just go to temples occasionally or have some statues of buddhas and guanyings at home.

This is from my personal experience: among Chinese, it is very common for self-proclaimed Buddhists to have never been a monk or vegetarian. In reality, most Chinese follow a folk religion that combines Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, and some other traditional elements, and they just call it "Buddhism". They identify themselves as Buddhists when being asked about their religion. The fact is that religion is not really Buddhism, and they don't actually know what religion they follow. It is a very informal, unstructured, unorganized religious belief that has been passed on from generation to generation, from parents to children. "Folk religion" is really the best definition for it. Many Chinese who follow that folk religion even self-proclaimed to be "atheists". ktchong 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Marketing value?

I guess Team Yao is missing here...--Skyfiler 16:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Scouting Report

Is asian power the correct term here? Did not want to delete in case it was correct, but it seems a bit doubtful to me. S-man64 09:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Height

No one has a problem with using information from the NBA bio that has not been updated since Yao was drafted four years ago? It seems absurd to use that info. You might as well cite to an article written about him when he was 17. 205.188.116.65 11:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, the information on wikipedia is judged on citable sources, and not necessarily the truth, as one sees it. And most certainly not truthiness. If the reliable source, or if any overwhelmingly number of reliable sources don't quite reflect one's perception of the truth, whatever that truth is, tough poop. --Downwards 01:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Currently the height cited in the article and the one used in the side bar are different. Perhaps the two should be harmonized. --scirocco6 01:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I've set the height in the opening of the article to match the sidebar. Jody R Franklin (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

one blocked shot is not notable

Yao had a shot that was blocked. I don't see how this is important or notable. No other basketball players have a section listing when a shot is blocked. Unless there is something remarkable about this shot then it doesn't belong in wikipedia. 68.40.243.186 22:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You had a point, and it's now ammended with appropriate encyclopedic notability/significance. --Downwards 01:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with its inclusion in this particular article. The blocked shot trivia adds nothing of value here. The appropriate place for this trivia is in the Nate Robinson article, where it has already been added. Myasuda 10:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the blocked shot should be included in the article. The guy who blocked it is only 5 foot, 6 inches, nate robinson. Yao Ming is 7,6, the shortest guy on the court, nate robinson blocks the tallest guy on the court....it should be noted —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.114.32.126 (talk) 21:08, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that it should be mentioned in Robinson's article. It is a notable accomplishment for him, but having a shot blocked is not notable for Yao. Steve Dufour (talk) 07:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Draft

I went ahead and reverted 67.169.20.131's truncation of Yao Ming's draft history. The user unnecessarily removed an important chunk of the section, making it confusing and incomplete. The user also has a history of vandalism, but I hope this is not his/her intention. - USLeatherneck 17:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

2006-2007 - Season Notes for Future Possible Revisions

I'll try to fill in the 2006-2007 season section in the real article soon unless I hear an objection. - USLeatherneck 09:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

• Yao Ming recorded his third 35 point, 15 rebound game against the L.A. Lakers on December 15, 2006 just a day after his second. The last person to have back to back 35 point, 15 rebound games was Antonio McDyess back in November/December 2000. Yao remains the only NBA player this season with a 35 point, 15 rebound stat line in a single game. He had 8 career high blocks to go along with this superlative. Source: ESPN - USLeatherneck 09:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

• Yao Ming scored 38 points and 18 rebounds in a close loss against the Golden State Warriors on December 14, 2006. According to the Elias Sports News on ESPN, it's his second 35/15 or better performance of the season. No other player has yet to achieve these numbers in the 2006-2007 season. Elias further adds, "The last player with more than one such game in one season before New Year's Day was Shaquille O'Neal in 2001." Source: ESPN. - USLeatherneck 09:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Yao Ming's 34 point, 14 rebound performance over Shaquille O'Neal's 15 points and 10 rebounds on November 12, 2006 is the largest head-to-head point margin (19 points) in O'Neal's entire career. According to Elias Sports News on ESPN: "The opposing center who had the next-widest scoring margin over Shaq (and the highest legitimate total) was David Robinson, who outscored O'Neal, 30-15, on March 19, 1993, in Shaq's rookie season." Source: ESPN - USLeatherneck 09:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

• Someone should mention Yao's tibia fracture on December 23, which should sideline him for at least 6 weeks. Source: ESPN.com

Rush Hour 3

Yao Ming was approached by Brett Ratner's representatives to appear in the next Rush Hour installment. Apparently, they wanted to recreate the famous Bruce Lee v. Kareem Abdul Jabbar scene from the martial arts classic, Game of Death. However, it has been confirmed by various sources that Yao Ming turned down the offer to focus strictly on basketball. Source: Rottentomatoes.com - USLeatherneck 14:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Scouting report

I think that the scouting report exaggerates Yao's abilities. The way it is written gives you the impression that he is the greatest of all time (when actually he isn't). For example, it says: "When Yao gets position in the post, he is almost indefensible" - that just isn't true. The scouting report should be deleted or re-written more realisticly.

Jacky Yao

excuse me, but who is Jacky Yao and can someone please verify that he is indeed Ming's first cousin and very instrumental to his success in the NBA? Sounds like a bunch of baloney to me!!! Qbizzle 15:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Ye Li

I removed the internal link to Ye Li, as it pointed to a Chinese Men's speed skater. Yao's not dating a dude as far as I know. 70.64.104.35 07:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I created a new page called Ye Li (basketball) which is the women in this article and added the internal link to that page,

==

I added the latest news on the date of marriage plus links coz it is important.

--Florentino floro 07:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Some pointers for GA

I've some experience with GAs/FAs and it's great to see a nice overhaul of this page. The following points could be considered in improving this article in view of its GA nom:

• see WP:LEAD -- at the moment the lead is a little too concise.
• won't hurt to include the name of the websites in "references", viz. publisher.
• "Before Yao Ming’s first meeting with Shaquille O'Neal on January 17, O'Neal said, "Tell Yao Ming, ching-chong-yang-wah-ah-soh", prompting accusations of racism." -- this statement should be prefaced with some context so that an ordinary reader can understand it. Perhaps something along the lines of there was much media frenzy leading up to the first showdown between the then most dominant center in the league...
• "He has started for the Western Conference in the NBA All-Star Game in all six of his seasons" suggests that he played in all the games, but didn't he miss one due to injury?

I'd try to fix minor stuff (e.g. WP:DASH, copyedits) as I see them. There are some useful precedents listed at the NBA wikiproject page too. Chensiyuan (talk) 12:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions, as I know you have the credentials to back up your statements. I'll be working more on the article in the coming days. I've already used Tim Duncan and other highly-rated NBA articles as a guide, and I probably will continue to do so in the near future. Noble Story (talk) 13:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

GA

The GA review has been archived and is linked via the article history at the top of this page. Dr. Cash (talk) 13:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Standard disclaimers

this is the diff for my copyediting on your FAC (and there are a few other edits mixed in there). I could be wrong about anything. Feel free to revert. Feel free to ask. I am happy to look things up and provide support for my edits, or try to. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 01:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Error

Newsweek should be italicized in the "Personal life" section. I can't change it myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 29, Trip and Fine (talk • contribs) 04:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Done. Noble Story (talk) 05:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

error in Early life and CBA career

5 feet 5 inches is 1.65 m, not 1.7 . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.205.162.6 (talk) 08:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it's rounded up. Noble Story (talk) 09:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

5 centimetres are 2 inches, too much to round up, in my opinion ;-). --79.3.58.247 (talk) 16:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, it's done. Noble Story (talk) 02:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

thanks! --79.18.14.182 (talk) 10:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

children's book by Richard Krawiec--recently removed link

He wrote a bio for kids about Ming that won an award. Some may believe that it is necessarily less notable than the two books for adults referenced, but unless they have read Krawiec's book and will provide specific arguments, I will respectfully disagree. I restored the sentence linked to Krawiec.Rich (talk) 00:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I will disagree. The book was named one of the "40 Best Young Adult Books of 2004 by the Pennsylvania Librarians Association." That does not seem to be major award to me. Yao's autobiography, and Operation Yao Ming are very relevant to Yao's life; the children's book is not. Not to mention it's not cited anyway. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 00:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but if a Houston Rockets fans reads this article, she might like knowing of a bio that her kids could read. I don't know if the children's book is relevant to Yao Ming's life, unless you are him or close to him, you might not know either. But it is about Yao's life, and it seems to me that books for children may be just as important as books for adults. Regards, Rich (talk) 01:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions

Because Yao is his family name, should I propose that he be referred to throughout the article as "Ming", as that is his given name. Although this is the English language Wikipedia, we should still honor the naming conventions of other cultures. Plus, regardless of the order of his names, "Ming" is the equivalent of his "first" name for our culture. Since this is currently the featured article, I will wait for a bit before making the changes myself. Godheval (talk) 14:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Confused. Since Yao is the family name, that is the name we would normally use when referring to a person in the article (for example, we refer to Ronald Reagan as Reagan, not Ronald). So what needs to be changed? The article refers to his family name. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Huh, I guess you're right. Looks like I'm the one who's confused! Godheval (talk) 21:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Height - Verifiability - Reliability

There seems to be a misperception about what verifiability and reliability means in a wikipedia context. Some people use words like "citable" to describe the policy for inclusion. Citability is an important characteristic of verifiability, but it doesn't address reliability.

The NBA is not a reliable source for height information, as all basketball fans know - what these fans seem not to know is wikipedia's policy in reliability in a nutshell: Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

This means that the NBA player height listings - and websites, news articles that get their information from this source aren't to be included in articles when we have better information.

Reliable sources for player height are - draft camp measurements, olympic measurements (which while not perfect either don't have the general blanket reputation for exaggeration that nba listings do). From these sources Yao's height is 7'5".

If you are under the misapprehension that NBA official heights also known as "program heights" are reliable, there are many sources disputing this - http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1117143.html

Here's some quotes : "They lie," said Charles Barkley, a basketball commentator for TNT. "I've been measured at 6-5, 6-4 3/4. But I started in college at 6-6." Even the NBA lies, apparently. According to Barkley's biography on NBA.com, he is listed as 6-6.

Sam Smith, a longtime NBA writer who recently retired from The Chicago Tribune, said: "We sort of know the heights, because after camp, the sheet comes out. But you use that height, and the player gets mad. And then you hear from his agent. Or you file your story with the right height, and the copy desk changes it because they have the 'official' NBA media guide, which is wrong. So you sort of go along with the joke."

The NBA official guides certainly don't have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy in regards height, so if any good faith editors feel they do I'd advise them to do some research into the issue. Zzmang (talk) 01:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

NBA is accepted as reliable source. You suddenly come in here claiming that they are inaccurate is baseless and ridiculous. This is wikipedia, so what you think, or what Charles Barkley thinks or what Sam Smith thinks are called original research and are irrelevant.—Chris! _ct 01:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The NBA is accepted as a reliable source by whom and why? You and for no reason? That's not how you establish reliability and it's not "Original Research" to find quotes from say, a professional who writes on basketball, that official heights are often inaccurate. Assessing the reliability of a source is NOT original research, and the burden of evidence for reliability is the reputation of the source. The NBA, and pro-sports in general, does not have a good reputation for accuracy in listing heights. Again this isn't original research it's assessing the reputation of NBA official heights for fact checking and accuracy.

Address the actual issue of the reputation for reliability of NBA official lists as a source, rather than pretending that bringing it into question is original research. I'm reverting back to more reliable sources until you can do so. Zzmang (talk) 03:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The NBA is accepted as a reliable source by consensus. And yes it is original research to use quotes as references and to advance a position based on them. Unless you had evidence that the NBA measurements are incorrect, calling the NBA unreliable or saying that the NBA does not have a good reputation for accuracy are really your opinion, and is therefore irrelevant.—Chris! _ct 04:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Obviously if anyone disagrees then there is no consensus - and your mission is to find that NBA heights have a general reputation for accuracy and fact checking - which will be hard since they certainly do not have such a reputation. You seem to not understand that sources need to be judged for reliability, and keep confusing this with original research. The reliability of sources is highly relevent. I've given an article calling the accuracy of listed heights into very serious question, and shown you that people who work in the game don't believe listed heights and see draft measurements as more credible.

Here's the deal so far, both heights 7'5" and 7'6" have been listed officially by the NBA at various times, and reported in various news services (which isn't really relevant when we are talking about primary sources), however, in terms of reliability the NBA (and news articles listing their official measurements) doesn't have it in regards to height, so we must dismiss them. The 2008 Beijing Olympic Team Stats (and Olympic measurements are often provided by FIBA - which has a better rep for accuracy) gives Yao 7'5". His measurements that were given to the draft camp and deemed "credible" gave him a height of 7'5". So the less reliable source (NBA team listings) has variously supported both heights, while the more reliable sources support 7'5" - this is why from the current evidence - this height will be listed.

I'm not debating truth, merely verifiability from reliable sources. Zzmang (talk) 04:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Zzmang, we need proof that the article is actually true. There is no proof of that. The NBA verifies most of the NBA realted articles. I say that both websites do not give verifiability, but the NBA has for reliability as the article could be false, not saying that the NBA isn't false.

Conclusion, use NBA.com. -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 05:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• I had thought 7'5" was Yao's "official" NBA height... *shrugs* How about a compromise: just say that sources variously report Yao's height as 7'5" or 7'6". That's probably the closest we can get to the truth. Zagalejo^^^ 05:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• Here is an old NBA player profile (from the Wayback Machine), which lists his height as 7'5": [6]. Zagalejo^^^ 05:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

(OD)I'd go with the official NBA stats and whatever they say currently. Yao plays in the NBA regularly, so I'd go with that over FIBA. It's certainly not worth edit warring over. Dayewalker (talk) 05:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we should go with the nba stat.—Chris! _ct 05:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd like your guys opinions on whether the nba official heights are reliable. Since the nba has a reputation for exaggerating height in general, and has listed Yao variously from 7'5" to 7'6", I find it hard to accept it as a reliable source.

Also, we aren't debating the truth of Yao's height, since the standard of inclusion is verifiability and not truth but if you do want to know the truth - it's right here http://www.nba.com/media/rockets/yao021121-2.jpg compare for yourselves. Shawn Bradley was measured at 7'5.5" in 1993 draft camp, where as Yao was accepted to be 7'5".

To see how other examples of height exaggeration are handled on other player's pages consider this case. Michael Beasley is listed at 6'10" NBA http://www.nba.com/draft2008/profiles/MichaelBeasley.html however was measured barefoot at draft camp at 6'7" and 6'8.25" in shoes http://www.faniq.com/blog/NBA-PreDraft-Camp-Measurements--Michael-Beasley-Blog-9307 Inside hoops http://www.insidehoops.com/chicago-camp-measurements.shtml How does his wiki page list him? - 6'7" his verifiable and reliable height.

This article also sheds light on the issue http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=422341 which says "A sampling of current NBA players measured by the league in advance of the annual draft shows their teams have doctored the heights for 12 of 15 -- 80 percent. Only one of the names I picked at random -- Kevin Durant -- is listed precisely at his barefoot height (6-9). Chris Paul's height is rounded up from 5-11 3/4 to 6-0, which counts as a square deal." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.6.177.11 (talk) 08:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

It's only this article that goes against the grain when draft and FIBA measurements are freely available, also I don't understand K._Annoyomous24's point. Which article do I have to prove to be true? Stop trying to shift the burden of proof around, I've demonstrated to a reasonable level with an article giving insider accounts of height exaggeration and shown how other pages deal with this issue. This is not original research, it's establishing whether sources are reliable.

Actually, I can't find the article at the moment but there's a quote from - i think David Stern - which says that exaggerating players height adds to the "mystique" of the game, and there are no plans to list them more accurately. Zzmang (talk) 08:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Also User:K._Annoyomous24 is likely a meat puppet, being co-nominated with Crishomingtong for working on 8 articles, K_Annonymous24 please stop posting in this discussion.Zzmang (talk) 08:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Zzmang, please do not tell other editors where they can post. If you have an accusation against K._Annoyomous24, an editor in good standing with almost 3000 edits, take it to the proper channels. His opinion here is just as valid as yours. Attacking the motives of another editor will not help your case. Dayewalker (talk) 17:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I was laughing my f***** a** off (LMMFAO). I also sometimes disagree with Chrishomingtang and I will never be a meat puppet to anyone. Conclusion, use NBA.com. -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 19:15, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, thanks for the comment by saying I'm an editor in "good standing" with almost 3000 edits", Dayewalker, but I only have 2950(ish). -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 04:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, never mind. You may have been also adding my other edits from my IP and global user(User:Annoyomous24). -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 04:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

1. I was warning Annoyomous24 that he/she seems like a sock or meat puppet, and asking that to avoid further accusations and reporting that she/he excuse herself from this discussion. As for Dayewalker, saying how many edits an editor has made does not defend them from an accusation of being a meatpuppet, and I'm trying to be polite by not instantly jumping in and reporting - but talking to the editor in question. Also - it's not true that everyone's opinion is equally valid - K. Annoyomous24's opinion is poorly worded and based on an assumption that the nba verifies most of the articles - which seems highly unlikely when it comes to height - in fact it isn't true. Zzmang (talk) 12:09, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good fiath. You have no proof that K. Annoyomous24 is a sock, so please stop these baseless accusations. Also just because you think K. Annoyomous24's opinion is poorly word, doesn't mean it is invalid. Going back to the height issue, it seems there is a consensus that the nba source is reliable.—Chris! _ct 17:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The NBA has to be considered reliable... there is no evidence except heresy that says otherwise. --CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 19:09, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Chris! the reason I think that K. Annoyomous24 is a sock or meat puppet is that he/she is a known associate of yours, and came here supporting your views. K. Annoyomous24's page also states that he/she is a Chinese-American but was born in the US, when the standard of grammar would indicate that he/she did not grow up in an English speaking country. While your userpage states you are were born in Hong Kong, and K. Annoyomous24's standard of English is similar to yours and consistent with origins such as that.

CanadianLinuxUser heresy is basically a religious term, hearsay is a legal term. They aren't wikipedian terms. Heresy means going against dogma, hearsay means using a statement attributed outside of the court to legal proceedings. We aren't going through legal proceedings .... I have the NBA Commissioner David Stern quoted as saying there won't be league mandated measurements and that the difference between hype and reality adds to intrigue. I have an NBA spokesman saying the league relies on teams to report heights, and that the league doesn't measure players. I have 5 news articles saying heights are listed inaccurately, containing numerous specific examples of heights being listed inaccurate. It's not actually possible to prove a source is any more unreliable than NBA official heights.Zzmang (talk) 06:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Third Opinion

The NBA is the official body that keeps track of player stats and I think we should accept their stats as official and reliable. If there is 'reliable' evidence that a particular height is not accurately quoted, then add a caveat. Of course, if several reliable sources claim that the NBA is generally inaccurate, complete with examples, the case would be different. But, the evidence presented above about the stats in general not being correct is anecdotal and close to WP:OR. --Regents Park (sniff out my socks) 21:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for providing a third opinion.

Do you think that these sources are reliable and call NBA official listings into question? New York Times, Sports Illustrated, Sporting News etc

Here are some links and quotes calling into question the reliability of NBA list heights

Sports Illustrated - Heights of Hilarity

Sporting News - Predraft height hype is out of hand

NYtimes - When Height Becomes a Tall Tale

Draft Express - A historical look at Pre Draft Measurements

From Sporting News "A sampling of current NBA players measured by the league in advance of the annual draft shows their teams have doctored the heights for 12 of 15 -- 80 percent. Only one of the names I picked at random -- Kevin Durant -- is listed precisely at his barefoot height (6-9). Chris Paul's height is rounded up from 5-11 3/4 to 6-0, which counts as a square deal. "

From Sports Illustrated "It was in the run-up to the 1992 Olympics that the world finally learned what the cognoscenti had long suspected -- that Charles Barkley was more like 6-4 5/8 than 6-6, and Magic Johnson closer to 6-7 than 6-9. Likewise, it was a measurement in 1988 before the Games (citius, altius -- but not unduly altius) that exposed Danny Manning, who had been a 6-11 freshman at Kansas, as a 6-9 NBA draftee-to-be. "

From NY Times " “They lie,” said Charles Barkley, a basketball commentator for TNT. “I’ve been measured at 6-5, 6-4 ¾. But I started in college at 6-6.” Even the N.B.A. lies, apparently. According to Barkley’s biography on NBA.com, he is 6-6."

and

"Sam Smith, a longtime N.B.A. writer who recently retired from The Chicago Tribune, said: “We sort of know the heights, because after camp, the sheet comes out. But you use that height, and the player gets mad. And then you hear from his agent. Or you file your story with the right height, and the copy desk changes it because they have the ‘official’ N.B.A. media guide, which is wrong. So you sort of go along with the joke.”"

From Draftexpress "A human’s height does not include the addition of shoes, so it’s misleading when a player chooses to be listed at their in shoes height. The NBA has also done a poor job listing players consistently across the board. Many players are listed at their height in shoes, but some are listed at their barefoot height, and some are listed above their in shoes height (John Starks) or an inch below their barefoot height (Kevin Garnett, Desmond Mason)."

The NBA does not list heights accurately - and that draftcamp measurements (which are generally freely available) are a much more reliable source (since the NBA official guides have a poor record for fact checking and accuracy from sports journalists in relation to height), feel free to look up your favorite players' heights here DraftExpress Pre Draft Measurements and compare to their official team roster height.Zzmang (talk) 23:28, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

One more source Many players in NBA are telling tall stories

Quotes " The NBA doesn't measure players, which is probably why 1993 Most Valuable Player Charles Barkley got away with being listed at 6-foot- 6. Many who played against Barkley said he was, at most, 6- 4. "

" NBA spokesman Tim Frank said the league counts on its teams to give accurate measurements of their players"

" The NBA's top official isn't about to call for league-mandated measurements of players. Commissioner David Stern, whose height isn't listed in the NBA guide but was once estimated at 5-foot-9, said the disparity between reality and hype only adds to the intrigue of the game. "

Further, I am not engaged in WP:OR since I have "cited reliable sources that are directly related to the topic and directly support the information as it is presented" nor is it WP:SYN since the sources I've used to to say NBA official lists are unreliable "explicitly reach the same conclusion". So by any definition I'm not using original research, even though judging the reliability of a source isn't original research in any caseZzmang (talk) 03:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Despite your comments and accusations of meatpuppetry, consensus says we stay with the NBA figures. Simply saying that the NBA is always wrong isn't sufficient to overturn it as a reliable source. This is quickly plowing right into WP:LAME territory. Dayewalker (talk) 06:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I didn't 'Simply say that the NBA is always wrong" I proved with verifiable sources that it is NOT a reliable source, which obviously is sufficient. What would it take you to convince you the NBA does not have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy? When 5 news articles, incluing a NYTimes article, all explicitly reach the conclusion that NBA official heights are unreliable, including quotes from an NBA spokesman saying they don't measure heights, and from David Stern saying there were no plans to check heights and "the difference between reality and hype adds to the intrigue", players saying they are inaccurate, sports journalists saying they are inaccurate or a "joke", plus multiple examples of players being listed inaccurately ... if that evidence does not convince you, then WHAT WOULD it take to convince you? Zzmang (talk) 07:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

OK... OK... OK... try this another way. Let's suppose we cannot take the NBA's height as reliable... Who can we take as MORE reliable than the NBA? Ummmm that would be NO ONE!!

End of story. There are NO OTHER sources that can be MORE reliable than the NBA. Too bad... so sad. --CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 15:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Which sources are more reliable than NBA roster listings?

1. NBA Draft Camp Measurements - Players are measured barefoot, or if they cannot attend they must submit their own measurements which then must be deemed credible.

2. Olympic Measurements (obviously only for athletes who compete in the Olympic Games such as Yao Ming)

Both of these sources list Yao Ming at a height of 7'5".Zzmang (talk) 16:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

For a fourth opinion, Yao represents some of China's pride and despite their greater obsession with him most say his height is 223cm which he has stated many times. On the chinese wiki page they decided to go with the court height of 226cm even though they are aware his height has been exaggerated since by another inch. Have a look for yourself. 218.166.34.3 (talk) 17:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why there is a voting process. The consensus from this discussion says clearly the nba source is reliable.—Chris! _ct 18:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Protected

Due to the recent edit warring this page has been protected for a week. Please use the time to discuss the matter here and come to a consensus on what should and shouldn't be included on the page. If an urgent edit needs to be made during the protection, please place the template {{editprotected}} here with details of the edit that needs to be made and justification for the edit, and an administrator will come by to make the edit. If you have agreed and resolved the dispute before the expiry of the protection, please make a listing at requests for unprotection. While it is also possible to make such requests on my talk page, it would be quicker for you to use those previous methods. Thank you. Stifle (talk) 07:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Not trying to spark old debates, but I did change his height in the main body of the article back to 2.29m. Not because I think that's how tall his is. I don't know, and don't care. I changed it because that reference and the sidebar did not match, and the only listed source for his height shows him as 2.29m. I'd be happy to relent to the discrepancy and go for 2.26, or any other number so long as they are the same in both places, and the source is updated to refer to the different number. Jody R Franklin (talk) 23:33, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Voting on consensus

I've decided to have a voting on whether or not he use Zzmang's "reliable sources" or NBA.com's "reliable sources". If Support, you ar supporting for NBA Pre Draft combine and Olympic Measurements "reliable sources. If Oppose, then we use NBA.com's "reliable sources". I think this is the best way we can deal with this situation. -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 17:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 17:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose —Chris! _ct 18:22, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose -- --CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 18:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC) Other sources "might give something for THIS player, but what about all the rest? NBA MUST be the source.

• Support -- Zzmang (talk) 22:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC) 99% of NBA players go through the Draft combine, and are measured reliably barefoot, NOONE has an actual reason to support NBA team rosters as reliable.Zzmang (talk) 22:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is not a vote, so an outright vote is not binding. However, as I said above, I agree that consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of using the NBA stats. Talk page discussion favors it, and a 3O also agreed. At this point, there is exactly one user seeking to discount the NBA stats (Archaic d00d (talk · contribs) is an admitted sock of Zzmang [7], and should be treated as such). This editor's opinion runs contrary to both long-term established consensus, and current talk page discussion among multiple editors. Consensus to use the NBA stats is clear. Dayewalker (talk) 18:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

---

Sockpuppet Issue

Just for the record, I don't have an admitted sock puppet - I accidently used another account to edit this page, so asked a bunch of people with rollback powers to roll back that change, so i could use this account only- that's not a sockpuppet, that's a mistake. Also the change I made was making the templates convert properly. In the opening paragraph they were converting 7'6" to 2.30m while in the infobox another template was converting 7'6" to 2.29m. NBA's official listing has 7'6" (2.29cm).

Also Yao's parents were listed at 2.08m and 1.88m in the original source, but someone had converted that to 6'10" and 6'2" which is correct, but then used a template to convert that back to metric units, which converted it back to 2.1m and 1.9m - which is incorrect. The changes I made as Archaic d00d were not reverting Yao's height back against consensus, they were fixing obvious mistakes in the page.Zzmang (talk) 22:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

---

In the future, if you edit a page with an alternate account inadvertantly, don't go to other editors or admins to fix your mistake. Go to the correct talk page, admit it, and correct the mistake so everyone involved with the discussion understands both comments come from the same user. Going to another page to try and fix it still leaves the impression among involved user that Zzmang and Archaic d00d are two different users.

If you don't have an alternate account, then how can you edit it by mistake. The way you use sockpuppet to edit war warrants further investigation by an admin.—Chris! _ct 23:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, my point still stands. Overwhelming consensus is against you. Dayewalker (talk) 22:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I am curious when the NBA started saying that Yao was 7'6", because the old NBA.com profiles used to say 7'5". (Check the Internet Archive.) Did they make an announcement about that at some point?

As for Zzmang, I think he makes some fair points which merit further discussion. It's well-known that the "official heights" are imperfect. Even though it saves a lot of time and mental effort to just use them anyway, maybe we should start rethinking our approach.

By the way, why is this all in Comic Sans? Zagalejo^^^ 22:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

The point is that everyone here agree that the nba is still a reliable source, which means that we should continue to use it as reference, no matter what Zzmang says.—Chris! _ct 23:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Zagalejo the comic sans? i just copied the others ...

Yeah, it is well-known that list heights are imperfect(which is why they aren't a reliable source), the solution is to do what other pages (such as most pro-wrestlers ) do. Have a "billed height" and "height" references. In the case of NBA players some articles include both "listed height" and "draft camp measurement" eg Michael Beasley. Even though listed heights aren't reliable and shouldn't be used as a reference for "height" they may be notable in themselves, as "listed height". A lot of NBA pages make that distinction.

Crishomintang not everyone agrees that NBA official is a reliable source, because I don't. And I've proven my point with references and examples, you have advanced no arguments to support your position.Zzmang (talk) 00:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, almost everyone here agree with me that the NBA is a reliable source, so that is the consensus, no matter what you says.—Chris! _ct 00:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

(OD)If I can use an analogy here, it would be similar to statistics. If a running back runs for a twenty-eight yard touchdown and an analyst says it was actually a twenty-nine yard touchdown because of where the ball is spotted. that's actually his opinion. That doesn't invalidate the official statistic, it still goes in the books as twenty-eight yards. Just saying that certain people have said the NBA stats aren't right doesn't necessarily make them wrong and the FIBA stats right. I'm not even sure if FIBA measured the players themselves, or just used stats from their respective leagues. I still agree to keep the NBA stats for purposes of discussion. Dayewalker (talk) 01:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you're using an analogy, and I see what you are saying. But the difference is that a measurement taken from Draft Camp isn't an opinion, and when the criteria for reliability is a general reputation for fact checking and accuracy, then the NBA Commissioner has admitted the NBA does not check facts in terms of height. Olympic teams have a better reputation for fact checking and accuracy when it comes to height, so are more reliable (while I doubt they are perfect). If a League started to get a reputation for being unreliable in reporting game stats, by not checking facts and being inaccurate, it would eventually lose it's status as a reliable source.

But you are right in a way, I think in general the NBA teams have a different definition of "height". The usual, though not consistent, practice for the NBA teams is to list players heights in shoes and then round up to the nearest inch, which isn't what is normally meant by somebody's "height". That's why I only agree with you "in a way", because not only do they have a different definition of height, but they are inconsistent with it. I'm not against list heights being put on players' wiki pages, so long as they are called "list heights" or something similar on the page. The NBA team rosters just aren't a reliable source for "height" by it's usual definition.Zzmang (talk) 02:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The pre-draft measurements are from.... the NBA. Then later the NBA publishes another list. Some are the same... some are more... some are less. How can we guess which are the right and which are wrong? We CANNOT! No true reliable source can tell us which is correct. The stats published by the NBA roster is the only one we can accept at this time. --CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 13:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The pre-draft measurements are an official recording of height meant for accurate assessment of players for the draft, they are reliable because they specify whether they are barefoot or "in shoes" measurement. The NBA media guide heights are basically for hype and are submitted by teams and not the leauge, they do not specify whether heights are barefoot or in shoes - and "height in shoes" is not what people mean when they say "height". It's a no-brainer. I've got sources saying that NBA list heights are unreliable and combine data is reliable. I've proven my point.

Not one editor has provided any evidence whatsoever that list heights are reliable, and until they have proven their case any "consensus" will simply be a meaningless appeal to majority.

I seem to have put my case at a disadvantage by actually having arguments and sources. It seems people think that if I fail to convince them, then NBA list heights must have "a reputation for reliability and fact checking" - which is quite a bizarre argument from ignorance. Zzmang (talk) 14:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of calling the height in the infobox the "listed height". Zagalejo^^^ 22:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Instead of "Listed height", call it "Billed height" like the professional wrestlers articles. Hey, maybe even the weights are billed too, we'll never know. -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 22:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's a compromise : listed height is included in the info box, which is currently 7'6" - then the draft camp measurements are included in the article - barefoot height, wingspan, standing reach etc. These are notable for a player who is the tallest in the league and famous for his extreme height.Zzmang (talk) 23:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

How do you know that "the NBA media guide heights are basically for hype"? Do you have proof that this statement you made is true? If not, then that is just your opinion. Should we change the height just because you said so? No.—Chris! _ct 01:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, he's given several links to show that the heights have been questioned. Zagalejo^^^ 01:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, the nba can be wrong about their players' height, but so do the other sources available. Nba draft measurement could be wrong for all we know. The IOC can also made a mistake and report the wrong height for player in the olympics. Why should we prefer other sources over the nba? I dont understand.—Chris! _ct 02:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, all of the sources for players' heights are imperfect. But Zzmang still rasies some important questions. Whatever heights we use, it might be best to explicitly describe them as "billed heights" or "listed heights", or something like that. Zagalejo^^^ 02:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"How do you know that "the NBA media guide heights are basically for hype"? Do you have proof that this statement you made is true?"

Yes.

Proof : "The NBA's top official isn't about to call for league-mandated measurements of players. Commissioner David Stern, whose height isn't listed in the NBA guide but was once estimated at 5-foot-9, said the disparity between reality and hype only adds to the intrigue of the game. " from Many NBA players are telling tall stories - Oakland Tribune

That's the NBA's head honcho admitting that NBA list heights are "hype", and not measured or verified by the league.Zzmang (talk) 07:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we end this conversation and just use "Billed height"? -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 08:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Zzmang, it doesn't matter if the nba heights are wrong. Like I said, draft measurements or Olympics measurements can also be wrong. If we don't accept the nba as a source, then we will have no way to source these height. Fine, I guess I will accept the terms "billed height" or "listed height" when we describe the height, but I won't accept the total exclusion of the nba as a reliable source.—Chris! _ct 01:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Chrish your argument is called an appeal to consequences, what you are essentially saying is "If NBA heights are unreliable, it will be hard to find sources. It would suck if it was hard to find sources, therefore NBA heights are reliable". That line of reasoning is fallacious.

It really is a simple discusson, NBA heights are reliable if, and only if, they have a reputation for accuracy and fact checking by people in the field. Among journalists and players, NBA heights aren't seen as reliable from the evidence we have seen ergo they aren't a reliable source for wikipedia.

That said I'm in favor of "listed height" of 7'6" being included in the infobox, the NBA might not be reliable for height BUT it is a reliable source for "listed height" which is just the height they list and I also feel that "listed height" is notable because it's used so much. Aswell as this I think it would be good to include the measurements submitted for Yao in the draft. draft data is a reliable source, i.e. among player and journalists it does have a reputation for accuracy and fact checking. That's a different thing to perfection - the criteria for inclusion is verifiability and reliability, that's not perfection or even truth. Since Yao is the tallest player in the league, I think his standing reach, wingspan etc is notable, and people will find it interesting.

So i propose "listed height" in the infobox, and draft measurements, including wingspan etc in the article. What do you people think?Zzmang (talk) 12:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I already said I will accept the terms "billed height" or "listed height" when we describe the height. So what do you want? Also, please don't try to give those fallacy bs, all I am saying is if NBA heights are unreliable, it will be hard to find other reliable sources. It would suck if we cannot find sources for height, therefore the NBA heights have to be used even if they are incorrect or unture. This logic comes from a wikipedia policy WP:V.—Chris! _ct 18:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I will notify WP:NBA on this discussion. -- K. Annoyomous24_[c] 18:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

1. OK, well just for the record I prefer "listed height" to "billed height" ('coz other articles use that and "billed" sounds like a theater program) what's your preference?

2. Where does it say in WP:V that you should use unreliable sources if you can't find others?

3. What do you think about putting the draft measurements (including height, standing reach, arm span) in the article? I think it's interesting because Yao is so tall. Zzmang (talk) 00:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

constant vandalism

does anyone know why this article is vandalised so much? i dont care about sports, but i fixed some tiny little thing on here, so it went on my watchlist and it seems like this article is vandalised a lot. badmachine (talk) 08:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

InterWiki

[[vi:Diêu Minh]]

Various comments

Hi there, I've just translated this article to German because it is very well-written. I tried to keep track of the small changes I made but - I'm sorry - I failed. Here is a list of a few things I remember, I will leave it to your consideration.

• The part about his parent's heights were moved from the lead to "early life".
• After missing only two games in his first three years of NBA play,[33] Yao endured an exte... It should say, out of how many games he missed only two (which would be 246)
• It was predicted the Rockets would focus more on offense under Adelman than they did under Van Gundy's defensive-based system. I really had trouble translating this sentence since I couldn't figure out how this has to do with the sentences before and after it, it's kinda like an "alien sentence" ;-)
• On November 9, 2007, Yao played against fellow Chinese NBA player Yi Jianlian for the first time. Yi's team should be mentioned too (Milwaukee Bucks at that time)
• Yao averaged only 14 minutes and 4 points in his first seven games, and several respected commentators, including Bill Simmons and Dick Vitale, predicted that Yao would fail in the NBA I didn't really understand the "and" in this sentence. Okay, they felt their predictions come true BUT the references given here all point to the predictions long before Yao entered the NBA. There is none like "As I had predicted long ago, Yao really is struggling and will fail as predicted" but they are all written long before this. That is why there shouldn't be this "_and_ several respected commentators, ...".
• I have a question about Yao hosted a telethon, which raised 300,000 U.S. dollars to help stop the spread of SARS because it would make a difference in translating: Was he more like a patron for this project or was it actually _his_ project?

Then I have some other things that might be worth adding. I took them from the German article before I replaced it with the translation (haven't verified this stuff though, the article had no references)

• he was MVP at CBA in his last season there
• he is well-known for his humor
• along with Wang Zhizhi and Mengke Bateer he was called "The Walking Great Wall" at the Olympics in Sydney
• his "appearance" in "The Simpsons"

Please comment on those points. Also, it has been suggested at GA review that Yao's role / his popularity in China could be made even more clear. On the other hand also his role as "Chinese ambassador" in the US. --X-Weinzar (talk) 04:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for you points, which are very true. Even an FA has things to improve. I'll definitely work on this in the coming days. And I hope you can have similar (FA) success with it at the de-wiki. :) Noble Story (talk • contributions) 04:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't pass because some section about his playing style and abilities (strengths, weaknesses, the development of his skills over the years) should be included. Certainly tough to write, so I won't do it. Maybe you could try and I just translate? ;-)

Here is another thing that I just remembered:

• Point out that missing so few games is especially notable for players of his height. Like the 246 games, this is obvious to Basketball fans but might be worth mentioning to people who are not that much into Basketball.

I had to leave out the story about "kissing ass". There just no way how to do express this in German without delivering a huge explanation with it about the wordplays involved. Same thing with the "Tell Yao Ming, Ching chong-yang-wah-ah-soh" part though I regret it. Still thinking about how to include it without having to spend several sentences on explaining it ;-) --X-Weinzar (talk) 15:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

By the way, answer to your telethon question, I think that Yao did actually host it, rather than just participate. And I'm still working through the things you've said. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 05:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Minor correction regarding All-NBA Selections

Yao has now five All-NBA selections, not four, someone please change it, TIA GWST11 (talk) 08:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by GWST11 (talk • contribs) 07:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

OK. You should be able to edit semi-protected pages yourself within a couple of days. Zagalejo^^^ 18:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Height confirmation

Is there no source to suggest that Yao Ming might just be 1cm taller? I originally thought he was listed as 2,30 or possibly higher. At 2,29 (7'6"), he wouldn't be the outright tallest player because that height is shared with Slavko Vraneš[8]. Slavko is himself only usually listed as being "amoing the tallest" but never joint tallest. The only factor is that Slavko may be fractionally shorter than the sources on his page give, because I have seen him billed at 2.26m. Evlekis (talk) 14:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Yao could out the entire 2009-10 season according to Yahoo Sports! ?

Should this be added? Some say his career could be in serious jeopardy.GWST11 (talk) 20:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Edit request from 98.189.241.5, 6 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

98.189.241.5 (talk) 20:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)rofl

Not done: Welcome. You need to provide a request with a 'please change X to Y' level of detail when using the editsemiprotected template. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 21:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Yao missed entire 2009-10 season

according to http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mingya01.html so the article should be changed from "probably will miss" to "he missed entire 2009-10 season" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.25.24 (talk) 11:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

Colin Pine

Why does this section exist? This article is about Yao Ming, not about Colin Pine. If Yao learning to drive is a notable fact, then we just mentioned that Pine taught him. A mini life story about Pine is totally unnecessary here. If there are no objections, I'll be taking that section out. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 13:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed and removed. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

All-Olympic team

Is such a team announced for basketball? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bagumba (talk • contribs) 18:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I have removed that part of the sentence. I don't think there is an All-Olympic team.—Chris!_c/t 21:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Yao retired?

Yao's team and Rockets officially deny the report of Yao Ming's retirement. I suggest we delete stuff pertaining to that.--Peterxj108 (talk) 00:45, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted back to an older version of the page. I'm guessing you're talking about this?

It's probably best to wait until Yao himself says something. Adrian Wojnarowski doesn't make the decision when Yao retires. Yao does. Zagalejo^^^ 02:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

That last paragraph about "reports" shouldn't be included in the header section, and it's speculation that's going to get deleted when/if he does retire... moved it to NBA Career juan^less 15:31, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 194.69.14.117, 20 July 2011

Please add that Ming officially has announced his retirement, here is a link: [9]

194.69.14.117 (talk) 07:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Done Added. Thanks for the source! —Bagumba (talk) 08:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Internet Meme

His face has become one of the most famous internet memes ever. Is there a reason there is no such section about it? If not, i'll be creating one soon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.55.45.37 (talk) 19:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

What meme? Zagalejo^^^ 00:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

"Yao Ming Trollface"/"F*ck that Guy / Dumb B*tch" knowyourmeme.com Omniomi (talk) 22:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

what meme? :yaomingface: btw i really think there should be at least a mention about it... afterall its really one of the most popular memes --109.81.133.34 (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree with you all.--Dixtosa (talk) 10:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Still no information about the meme? Zaqq (talk) 21:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

There's also another meme based on the first one: F*ck No Guy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.101.217.1 (talk) 15:22, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the section for meme. I only know Yao Ming because of the meme. I think many other outside of China and sport will be the same.

Is there any meaningful content from reliable sources on this?—Bagumba (talk) 17:20, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

+1 for mentioning meme in article 91.77.249.108 (talk) 09:03, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

If you guys need the referneces for the meme, it's right here, baby: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/yao-ming-face — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.214.176 (talk) 02:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

involvement in the campaing against shark finning

I think the article should mention that Yao Ming as taken a public stance (wich is rare for athlete/entertainer in China) against shark finning and shark finn soup wich is a big debate in China, here are some links: video in english:

72.53.122.57 (talk) 14:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

thank you for your attention Jean-Pierre Guay

General Aspects

I think this line: "She is the only woman he has ever dated." (talking about Ye Li) in the Personal Life section sort of gives a negative impression implying he has only dated one girl in his life from point of view of the western culture where dating is very common. Anyhow, even though it is a fact this line is merely more of an opinion and less of a neutral point of fact. I believe it should not from part of the article. Or at-least, the word 'ever' should be removed. If possible, the sentence should be framed more subtly and neutrally.Deepakp4 (talk) 11:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 August 2012

yaoming funclub link to another site. yaoming official site → http://www.yaomingmania.com/blog/ http://www.yaomingmania.com/blog/ Machaclick (talk) 03:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Partly done: You are right, http://www.yaomingfanclub.com/ doesnt appear to be his site. Removed. However, yaomingmania is just a fan site (see http://www.yaomingmania.com/blog/about-yao-ming-mania) Not added. —Bagumba (talk) 05:21, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Meme

This edit is sourced by a link to a forum, and doesnt seem reliable. This might be a better source, but an earlier discussion didnt find knowyourmeme.com to be reliable, even when memes have status as "confirmed" there. Feel free to inquire again at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, as the editorial control of the site may have changed. —Bagumba (talk) 04:23, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Even though the above source doesn't seem reliable, mention should be made that a particular expression of his, captured in a picture, has been used extensively throughout the internet, usually accompanied by the caption "bitch please".

The link below gives a good explanation of how this meme came about. Maybe it could be included in the main page?

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/yao-ming-face-bitch-please

• I can't understand why this section has been removed from the main article. The meme/ comic face has become very popular over the time and indeed this section has to be included in the main article. Can we have the following Youtube video together with few comics as a reliable resource?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-26VMhVLuHc

However, the large number of comic sites and Facebook pages having Yao's bitch please face for their comics itself is good enough to justify this section. --සමීර ශාකුන්තල | Sameera Shaakunthala (talk) 12:58, 30 December 2012 (UTC) Bitch please, wikipedia accepts only reliable sources(or sources that support US and Israel)--77.42.192.2 (talk) 08:41, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Yao Ming/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The article is close to meeting GA criteria, I would just like to see the sentences structured better at some points (no one-sentence paragraphs please), and making sure everything's accurate and NPOV (which it looks like it is).--Wizardman 16:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 16:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

link to NBA.com

The link of Yao Ming in NBA website should be http://stats.nba.com/playerProfile.html?PlayerID=2397

116.48.138.238 (talk) 06:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

This was discussed before at Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography#Historical_profiles_have_moved. Unfortunately, NBA.com made all the old links obsolete without redirecting them. Most NBA bios have basketball-reference.com links in the interim.—Bagumba (talk) 06:23, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Conservationism

More expansion is needed on his work with lowering demand of shark fins, and being a spokesperson for WildAid.[10].—Bagumba (talk) 20:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Politics

Seems to have gotten involved in with Shanghai Committee of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference.[11]—Bagumba (talk) 20:33, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

More details on legacy

Now that some time has passed since Yao's retirement, it would be good to enhance this article with perspectives on Yao's legacy, especially to maintain the article's status as a feature article. Areas that need enhancement include: ac

1. Historical rank among NBA centers
2. Impact on interest in NBA/Houston Rockets in China
3. Impact of interest in NBA/Houston Rockets among Asian-Americans

—Bagumba (talk) 16:46, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

He is viewed as an ambassador between the US and China.[12].—Bagumba (talk) 20:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

More.[13]—Bagumba (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Impact on NBA in China.[14]—Bagumba (talk) 20:42, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Also this.[15]—Bagumba (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

NBA Yao School[16][17]—Bagumba (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2016

In the wikipeda website in English, 2 individual titles should be added to the part, Carrer and Highlights. It is actual that Yao Ming won these 2 individual titles in FIBA World Championship 2002 held in USA, and FIBA World Champonship 2006 held in Japan. It is unfair that some other basketball players are introduced with their individual titles in FIBA Word Championship in ther Carrer and Highlights space while there is no such introduction of 2 individual titles Yao Ming got.

• All-Tournament Team, FIBA World Championship: 2002
• Top Scorer, FIBA World Championship: 2006

Factandfact (talk) 16:27, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  20:03, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

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