Talk:White émigré

White Russian

That's the common usage in the English language, both in the US & England, where these Russian, often [[Monarchist]s, emigrated. Therefore, the Article should be MOVED!!!

--Ludvikus 01:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Disagreed

I think that the term White Russian is only partially correct, because it does not signify necessarily emigration. A "White Russian" could have existed within Russia during the civil war. Historiography in the English language on the subject of White Emigres is not very widespread, so it is hard to argue for a true standard. White emigres refer to themselves as such, usually.

So what's wrong with 'White Russian Émigré'? White Émigré does not immediately suggest Russian. Valetude (talk) 17:48, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

P.S.

In addition, wanted to mention that while all "White Russians" are members of the White movement yet not all emigrated, at the same time by far not all "White Emigres" were a part of the White movement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tgrain (talk • contribs) 16:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Sources or References=

O.K., I understand you, but:

• 1. What are your sources for the term, as actually used historically, or in practice, or is it your own, Original research?
• 2. What about having a separate article on White Russian/ Do you object to this?

Yours truly,--Ludvikus 23:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm having serious doubts concerning a source often quoted on multiple Russian Emigration articles here and there on wikipedia. The "François Bauchpas, L'émigration blanche. Paris, 1968" book, doesn't show in any of my research in bibliographical essay or study on the White Movement or Russian Emigration... Could it be possible for the submitter to provide publisher's name, and verify the author's name ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.66.0.101 (talk) 15:11, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

White movement

Clearly, the above is the most important meaning!!!

Yours truly, --Ludvikus 23:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's think about it

Sorry for not signing my earlier postings, I only learned how to do that recently! :)

Well, let's get to the core of what White means. White is anti-communist, in the Russian understanding of the term. It can be monarchist or republican, although socialists tend historically to distance themselves from that term regardless of their involvement in the White movement - they sort of sit on the fence between Red and White.

In the Russian language, "White Emigre" is the proper term that is used, this is quite standard if you look at any Russian language publication. This, in my opinion, is also the most accurate term for the English language and it has been used - i.e. Michael Kellog's book, for instance. White Russian would imply sooner a participant of the White movement, and we run into the same problem again, not all White Russians ended up strictly speaking being emigres (General Mikhail Drozdovski is certainly a 'White Russian' but he died on Russian soil without emigrating), and many of those who call themselves White emigres today weren't even born in Russia.

Unfortunately there is not a very solid academic basis for the study of the White emigre community in the English language, we're talking a handful of authors so its hard to argue that there has been any sort of real 'standard useage'.

It's sort of like the term Rossiyane, there is no real English equivalent of it to date so it must be used as a Russian loanword if we are to understand what the term means. People in the English language mistakenly use "Russian" in place of "Rossiyane", a big mistake especially if you ask the non Russian Rossiyane people how they feel about that.

Tgrain 18:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Boris Brasol, White Russian, Monarchist

My interest is in those who, like Brasol, engaged in antisemitic activist by promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The scholars I have always come accross described these as White Russian. I have never come accross the term, White emigré. The most important scholar in this field of the "Protocols" is Norman Cohn Ludvikus 16:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Filip Petrovich Stepanov, & 'White' Russian refugee(s)

Norman Cohn, in his book, Warrant for Genocide, describes the above in dividual (not, by the way, as an antisemite) as:

    formerly procurator of the ecclesiastical synod of Moscow, court chaimberlain,
    and privy councillor, at Stary Futog, Yugoslavia.

This is on page 108 of Cohn's book. So, the "refugee" or "emigre" status is relevant, I think the "Russian" status is more so. Now maybe the concern is with the fact that "Russian," before the revolution, denoted more often, in such contexts, membership, citizenship (rather, subject), of the Russian Empire - and not necessarily Russian nationality or ethnicity!!!Ludvikus 16:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Count Arthur Cherep-Spiridovich, White Russian

Here's another antisemitic protagonist described by scholars as a "White Russian." The term as used in this context is more important than the alcoholic drink which also comes in the form - in New York City at least - as a "Black Russian." (Kalua, by the way, besides Vodka, is the essential defining ingrediant). So much for Eurasian culture and history for now here! Ludvikus 16:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Semantics point

We have to be very clear with our definitions here.

Clearly from the work of scholars that study Russian/Soviet history (without having to run for a million citations which I don't have time for), White Russian can be taken to mean an anti-communist Russian or occasionally used in a broader context, a pro united Russian state oriented Rossiyanin, opposed to the Bolshevik regime that established itself in November of 1917, who believed in opposing the Bolsheviks with the force of arms who was 1) in a de facto and/or de jure alliance with the armed forces of Generals Kornilov, Denikin, Wrangel, Kolchak, Yudenich, Miller, Krasnov, Filimonov, Diterikhs, Semyonov, Dutov, and their subordinate armed groups, and 2) supported the idea of the lawful constituent assembly, or in rare cases a restoration of the Monarchy (as with Diterikhs).

Those who were against the Bolshevik regime but proposed to preserve the system of Soviets are generally NOT included in this category, i.e. the participants of the Kronshtadt and Antonov rebellions (although the Antonov rebellion did turn "pro white" at its end, under the leadership of Takmakov). Also, after the defeat of Diterikhs army, the White movement as a military movement ceased to exist, all armed groups had ceased to function. Guerilla movements are generally not labelled as "white" by Russian or other historians, save for Soviet polticians who used that label very loosely prior to WWII to label any resistance movement that was anti-communist (frequently referring to them as belo-banditi, or "white bandits").

I think it is pointless to cite sources here because the way I see it, this is general encyclopedic knowledge in both Russian and English lexicons.

Emigre denotes someone who left a country. White Russians who left their country therefore are emigre's. White Russians who emigrated are White Russians, but if you called a descendant of a White Russian a White Russian they may be confused. They would most likely say they are Russians, the descendants of White emigres (White Russians who emigrated), citing that they never fought in any of the armies mentioned.

Furthermore, we have the problem of second emigres who do not technically belong to the category of "White Russian", but have become integrated into the White Russian emigration (since they were an estimated 20,000 people versus the considerably larger pool of White emigres) and have frequent intermarriages.

We also do have the problem, as you pointed out, of Rossiyane, people who are not ethnically Russian but align themselves with the ideas of the White movement, which was pan-Rossiyan in its nature. A Rossiyanin who is the descendant of a White Rossiyanin may object to being called a "White Russian", yet they attend the same functions, are educated in the same Sunday schools, go to the same youth camps, belong to the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (those that are of a traditional Orthodox Christian background), etc.

The "White Russian" term should technically belong to the White movement page, although since such broad useage has been applied to the term it could also be as a SECOND place category to White emigre, but not as the first category, that is semantically less correct IMHO.

Tgrain 18:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Plebiscite vs. Referendum

I guess this is a minor point but why not use the word "referendum" instead of "plebiscite" (2nd paragraph under "Ideological inclinations") especially if the link for plebiscite goes to the referendum article anyway? The purpose of these articles is to inform, the best way to inform is to keep things as simple as possible. I understand that sometimes words have very specific meanings and no other word will do, but if an obscure word is interchangeable with a more commonly known word, why not use the more common word, unless you're just showing off?

--spiderflux 07:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)spiderflux

Following from Finland

- I am writing from Finland and I would like to contribute to the article with some things. I had never berfore heard here in Finland anybody talk about some "White Russians" until many years after the fall of Soviet union and yet I live only about 350 km from St.Petersburg. Here in Finland "reds" are communists and socialists and nobody talks any more about the "Whites". Somehow such seem to have disappeared even from this society. Finland had the civil war between the reds and the whites. The word "ryssä" seems always mean only red Russians, nobody knows anything about the White Russians here. And nobody seems to know much about the emigrants here, but new groups of immigrants are entering the country and some have wrongly used that word - or maybe there surely are some who have fled their country due to some political reasons. - In our circles the group who fled the Russian Revolution was never called "emigrés", but always "emigrants" Everybody knew emigrants were from Russia so there was no use call such people Russian Emigrants. "Emigrants" do not mean any other group of people here and if somebody use that word to something else it sounds nothing but very wrong. I could find the word "emigrant" in my German dictionary together with, but on the first place, before the word "emigré". The emigrant means "politischer Flüchtling" - a political refugee and the word emigré doesn't meant that. And before the very modern times after the fall of the Soviet Union the word "emigré" was never used here and this country didn't either take in many political refugees, but now even that has changed. However, English has not been much in use here before the end of the II World War, but Swedish, German and many knew Russian. But, however, speaking some Russian or German become more or less abandoned among the descendants of the Russian Emigrants, who had those languages as their real mother tongue. They should know Finnish and become real Finns. And many such people don't know much - if anything - about their roots either, something that surely is a tragedy for this whole group of people as they have been deprived their roots. Somehow it is suicidal if not a genocide if they have been discriminated in the local society. It seems as if these families are dying out and disappearing completely from this society. This might be a prove that they never intergrated to the tiny Finnish population. They might have suited better the Swedish population even here. - The article lets us know that the people who fled for political reasons and emigrated "spanned all classes". I don't quite believe in this. The people highest up in the scale had difficulties of their own in leaving the country, but however some seems to have left. Nobody was allowed to take any money with and all property and money were confiscated - or, however, were these not taken away from "everybody"? Who could flee in those conditions without money? The jewelry might have disappeared during a long journey as did the whole group of people who travelled with some "special" person! All were killed - or were they, however, not? I have never heard here in Finland of other emigrants than those who belonged to the more well off and higher (highest??) social classes. Among us the "social class" was, however, never talked about, not even mentioned. Maybe because these people owned nothing any more - had their roots and former life, but no poperty. However, I have asked a child that emigrated and fled with his parents from Russia, what class does he belong to and without any hesitation he says that to the highest excisting. And these people waited for their whole life that the situation in the Soviet Union might change and maybe that they could go back. Getting back some property was never mentioned - you don't quite even know what they had owned and where they had been living! To preserve some Russian culture abroad and to take it back to Russia was either never worked for in any way. The heritage I am now talking about is from people born around 1883-1893 and they were young people who had just got married and had babies when they had to fly for their lives. Their parents were killed on the spot in their homes. All the roots, family graves and memories were left in Russia. And the whole life was just of waiting to get back, but then started even the II World War. And not even their grandchildren will be leaving back to Russia as they are already too old! - The article lets us even think that all these people where of "real Russians" by their origin. However, it is said that Russia (St. Petersburg ???) had a foreign "upper class" and well of people. However, if this was the case it must have been a rather strange situation - but what I have heard this was the case. But who were those people? Some of the people I know where people who had Huguenot roots and who had already fled the French Revolution and ended in St.Petersburg. These were protestants and not belonging to the Russian Orthodox Church. They seems to have ended in the city in the times when it was built. But these people felt themselves Russians and where could they flee if they had to leave the country? France might not have been the place this time - it had already gone through its Revolution and might not have wanted this kind of people back! There are no noble, French people after the French Revolution either! Maybe this dying out of some "Russian" people should also be regarded as dying out of some "French" people - even families - mixed even with other European nationalities! - The article lets us even know that the Russian Orthodox Church (Easten Orthodox Church) abroad was grounded in 1924, after the Revolution. However, isn't it this church that now will again have the connection with the Russian Orthodox Church in Moscow? However, in Finland there is an other Orthodox Church (Eastern Orthodox Church), too. This Finnish Ortodox Church, however, belongs to the Orthodox Church in Greece. Might there be even some competition between these two churches as they are both now in Finland. However, the members of the Orthodox Church in Finland have also a lot of members with their family background in Karelia, an area next to St. Petersburg in Russia, and not only those who were Russian emigrants. But the Russian emigrants who fled the Russian Revolution entered this church here if they were not protestants. The emigrants who were protestants and fled Russia entered the German Church here. However, that church seems to have changed a lot during the decades and I suppose that its members today come from quite other groups. So the German Church here must be something quite else today compared with the times of the Russian Revolution 1917. - The White Emigrants didn't speak the local language as their mother tongue, but most of their descendants speak mostly Finnish as their "mother tongue" - maybe even Swedish - today. But I have noticed that their temperament and body language etc are quite different from that of the more local people. Even their food culture is somewhat different, too. - Their surnames might have been changed into some other names suitable for the Finnish language, but later a lot of Russian surnames have started to appear in Finland. I suppose these are not descendants of Russian emigrants, that however, were not so many here, but people moved from this country elsewhere abroad and stayed here just a short while. - The Finnish company life knows many firms that are originally grounded by some Russian emigrants.

That's all very interesting, but do you have a reliable source for any of that? Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 04:34, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Imperial?

A white émigré was a Russian subject who emigrated from Imperial Russia in the wake of the Russian Revolution...

But after the revolution, Russia was no longer 'Imperial'. Valetude (talk) 14:36, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

"White International" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect White International has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 18 § White International until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 01:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)