Talk:Was willst du dich betrüben, BWV 107/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 12:32, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I promised I would take a look at this review, and I will. I would first like to listen to a bit of it if I can, and check the sources, then I'll come back here for a full review. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:32, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

History and words

• "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life" - this is just verse 23 of Romans 6, not verses 19-23. (I'm glad I spent that time in Sunday School now when I was a kid)

good memory, however, at this point, usually a summary is given, - in this particular case the first verse is a good summary, - can you word that? It's taken (for all cantatas for that occasion) from List of church cantatas by liturgical occasion#Seventh Sunday after Trinity (Trinity VII). (Only God and Francis Schonken know, why the general article has the specifically Lutheran prescribed readings, which were in Church cantata (Bach)#Trinity VII before, which used to show the connection of readings and cantatas at a glance. --GA

I have put in a translation of verse 19, which now means the article does cover the passage in full. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:11, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

• ""Was willst du dich betrüben" (1630), which is focused on trust in God, even when facing adversaries including the devil" - the source given is the Bach cantatas website which has the words, but not an explanation of what they mean. Did you mean to pick another page?

moved that ref, doubled another --GA

• "The treatment was decidedly old-fashioned in Bach's time." - I can't see where in the source this is stated, though it does say the choice of using a recitative and four arias was atypical of Bach's composing methods at this time.

It's a different way of saying that in the other thirty-some cantatas of the same cycle, none is like that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:13, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Scoring and structure

• The source for the scoring, http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/cantatas/107.html gives me a 404 error

works for me --GA

I get a University of Alberta Faculty of Science page saying "Sorry, We Couldn't Find That Page. Don't worry, we've been notified of the issue. Here are some things you can try: Double-check you have the correct address. Go to the UAlberta Homepage. If you still can't find what you're looking for, send us some feedback." I have added a Wayback Machine archive link which works. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:12, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

• The type of the first movement is given as "Chorale fantasia", but the source simply says "Chorale" - what's the difference?

added a link, and another ref, - more in Chorale cantata (Bach): "but for his 1724-25 second Leipzig cantata cycle he developed a specific format: in this format the opening movement is a chorale fantasia on the first stanza of the hymn, with the hymn tune appearing as a cantus firmus." - It was linked in the beginning, we don't repeat in every cantata. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:21, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Music

• a chorale fantasia, with the the vocal part embedded in an independent concerto of the instruments" - this is cited to the Bach cantatas website documenting the choral melody, but I can't see where that particular part is mentioned. It does say the melody is "a type of ‘vocal allemande’ – a combination of dance and folk music lyrics".

see above, one more ref was added --GA

• "The scoring is rich in woodwinds" - the source (Dürr & Jones' Cantatas book) seems to suggest it's merely "the relatively rich woodwind scoring

in many cantatas, there are no woodwinds, in many others just oboes, - this - horn-flutes-oboes - is rich, - but add "relatively" if it helps ;) --GA

• "but mostly in two parts, due to the bar form of the poetry" - I can't see where "poetry" is mentioned in Dürr & Jones, where is this information in the book?

I am almost sure I read it there, but now most pages are not visible, sadly. The hymn stanzas are all in bar-form, - better wording welcome. --GA

• "follow the bar form of the poem as bipartite structures" - what's a bipartite structure?

in German "zweiteilig" (in two parts), opposed to tripartite (in three parts) as a da capo structure would be. Learned that from Nikkimaria. --GA

• "The rhythm alternates between 6/8 and 3/4 one measure to the next" - the source says "bar" (British English), while the article says "measure" (American English). As this is about a German composer, I can't see a preference between one or the other - which version of English would you recommend?

I usually prefer British English, but think "bar" is too ambiguous to the simple reader ;) - compare FAs on the topic --GA

• "the two oboes d'amore begins with an embellished version of the chorale tune" - the only source given here is Emmanuel Music, which is simply a translation of the words and doesn't contain this information

ref Mincham added, twice --GA

• "It expresses trust in God like a song with dance character" - I don't think this makes sense. I've re-worded to simply say "song-like". The trouble with English is you can't say "song and dance like" as it may be interpreted for the idiom "song and dance"

thank you --GA

• Dürr & Jones say the closing chorale is "richly decked out" - could we pop that in the entry for movement 7?

go ahead, do it, - if you hesitate as the reviewer, do it afterwards. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:39, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I think "a rich orchestral Siciliano concerto" covers it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:15, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Summary

I don't think there are any significant problems. I've done some copyediting as I go to make things a little clearer. I'll put the review on hold pending improvements. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

After listening to gorgeous singing by English Voces8 at a place they called one of the most spectacular and inspiring in 11 years of 120 concerts a year, - I answered a bit, more tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I think all my concerns have been addressed one way or another, is there anything else left to do on this? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:17, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

No, I think you did well, - I still wonder why the link works for me no problem. The website is used for most cantatas, so should really be fixed. It shows the scoring of the individual movements most conveniently arranged, and it's so characteristic for Bach to change it from movement to movement. - Dürr-Jones is also good, but for many cantatas, you don't see the pages. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:32, 13 July 2016 (UTC)