Talk:War in Iraq (2013–2017)/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Is it still a civil war?

Isn't the war with isis just a minor insurgency at this point, didn't the actual war part of it end a while ago? 65.101.48.103 (talk) 04:04, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

See above discussion. We are leaning towards this. That we close this article since there is no longer a conventional war between ISIL and the Iraqi government and ISIL has switched to a low-level insurgency now. EkoGraf (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I also strongly support this. The 'civil war' ended on 9 Dec 2017. But what do you mean with 'We are leaning towards this'? Can't you just open a move request now? --Wq639 (talk) 15:33, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

This was not a civil war. By suggesting it was is a misleading statement and an insult to Iraq and the Iraqi people. This was an insurgency that started with protests against the Iraqi government and turned into an uprising. Things went south when ISIS jumped in the band-wagon. Worth noting that the majority of ISIS terrorists/fighters were foreign nationals. Get your definitions and fact right and change the title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agentwriter (talk • contribs) 09:06, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Can we rename the article

I think that the use of the “civil war” term is a disrespect to Iraqis as majority of fighters weren’t from Iraq. Most of them came from Syria or other foreign countries. No source seems to considers this conflict as a “civil war”, and nobody uses the civil war term when talking about the conflict. I think we should have a better name for this article, maybe the “War in Iraq (2014-17)” IbrahimWeed (talk) 13:02, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

When you google the Iraqi civil war you only see articles related to the sectarian violence that broke out in 2006 and ended in 2009 which was a real civil war between Iraqi groups, unlike this conflict which was between a militant group mostly composed of foreign fighters. IbrahimWeed (talk) 13:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Good point almost no source for a "civil war" in 2014! And this page name is confusing. Shadow4dark (talk) 09:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

IbrahimWeedShadow4dark I think we should listen to the other people's opinion. And if you are going to move article, change all the templates which used previous name. But first, we should do talk first. -- Wendylove (talk) 08:58, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Change names

War in Iraq is very confusing with the Iraq war and was really was not used to describe this war, I suggest we changed the name to something els other than the War in Iraq. BigRed606 (talk) 14:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

name problem....

First was War in Iraq, and next is Iraq-ISIL War? I think we should talk about this. Why don't we go back to Iraqi Civil War? We cannot change the name by one's thought or idea. It should be decided by references and resources. -- Wendylove (talk) 02:31, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

• Current name ignores kurds and 2017 Iraqi–Kurdish conflict Shadow4dark (talk) 13:09, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
• Here's the problems with each name that this article was given in 2020:

• Iraqi Civil War is a name almost never used in sources to describe this conflict, and more often refers to the violence in 2006-2009. A large amount of ISIL fighters were from foreign countries, too. For these reasons, the article was moved to 2014-2017 Iraqi conflict.
• 2014-2017 Iraqi conflict is an understatement, since it was referred to as a "war" by sources. It was therefore moved to War in Iraq (2014–2017).
• This war actually started in 2013, so it was moved to War in Iraq (2013–2017)
• One editor said that "War in Iraq" sounded vague and too similar to Iraq War, so moved it to Iraq-ISIL war.
• and now this name is criticized for ignoring the 2017 Iraqi–Kurdish conflict.

Koopinator (talk) 13:30, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment – Shouldn't this be handled with an RM rather than an RfC? 207.161.86.162 (talk) 19:57, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, I want to listen to other people because the title of article cannot decide so easily. We can move the articles after we discuss deeply. -- Wendylove (talk) 06:40, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• Iraqi conflict (2013-2017) Konli17 (talk) 11:58, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• Hi Wendylove and others, I have reverted to the long-term stable title and started an RM for this, as that is the usual avenue for discussing potential name changes. Please contribute to the discussion there, and hopefully a way forward can be found. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 13:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

We did decide it by references and sources not our ideas, 0 references/sources called this the “Iraqi Civil War”. Most called it the “War in Iraq” or “War with the Islamic State” hence why we moved it. You never hear anyone call the conflict a civil war, but you hear everyone call it a “war”. The old name was completely fine and made more sense than an “Iraqi civil war”. Iraqi civil war also refers to the sectarian violence in 2006 and 2007, not this war. Ehoah88880 (talk) 17:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 13 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move to War in Iraq (2013–17)Ridax2020 (talk) 07:56, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

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Iraqi Civil War (2014–2017) → ?

See discussions above. There have been a number of bold moves this year, but no agreement on a title. I have therefore reverted this back to the most recent stable title, which was established via a 2018 RM at Talk:Iraqi Civil War (2014–2017)/Archive 1#Requested move 12 August 2018, with a number of earlier moves on the same page also using similar terminology. And I'm now starting an RM so that interested party can hash this out properly. Note that I have no preference on where this should end up, or indeed if it should be moved at all. Hopefully a consensus will emerge for a title, but in the mean time it should remain at the long-term stable title. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 13:31, 13 November 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. Jerm (talk) 20:45, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

You did right to move it back while a new name can be hashed out. I suggest Iraqi conflict (2013-2017). Konli17 (talk) 23:57, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, I think we should move it back first. I cannot think about new name right now, so I will watch the progress. But thanks for making this debate! -- Wendylove (talk) 08:03, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I have already done the "move it back" part - the current name, Iraqi Civil War (2014–2017), was the long-term stable title until June of this year, and was agreed in an RM in 2018. So the floor is open to all better suggestions as of now. Cheers!  — Amakuru (talk) 16:22, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Konli17 (talk) 16:37, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

War in Iraq (2013–2017): Disagree with Iraqi conflict (2013-2017), "conflict" seems to me like a bit of an understatement. Some sources refer to a war: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42291985 - although i still think that Iraqi conflict (2013-2017) is a reasonable second option. Koopinator (talk) 10:20, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Change it to the “War in Iraq (2013–2017)” nobody calls this a civil war. No term calls it such, and half if not 3/4 of ISIS were foreign fighters. ISIS mainly invaded from syrian territory, and a civil war would have happened if it was a rebellion/uprising that escalated into a war. Which it wasn’t. Ehoah88880 (talk) 17:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

0 source for a civil war. Ehoah88880 (talk) 17:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Changed it to Either the Iraq-ISIL War or the Iraqi-ISIL War, the War In Iraq is vague and sounds to similar to the Iraq War. Not also that but a lot of people also refer to the Iraq War as the War In Iraq. Sources: BigRed606 (talk) 04:38, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I prefer also War in Iraq (2013–2017), Iraq-ISIL War ignores other groups like kurds and sunni groups. And this is more than just "conflict". Shadow4dark (talk) 08:31, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I am now searching for some resources, and I think 'war' will fit with this article. Here are some resources that we can look on.

• https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42291985
• https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/crude-impact-cleaning-ravages-war-iraq
• https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/14/acting-pentagon-chief-says-wars-must-end-in-first-address.html
• https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/15/patrick-gathara-donald-trump-us-election-joe-biden-twitter-thread

-- Wendylove (talk) 09:00, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Shadow4dark (talk) If I was to walk up to a person and ask him about the War In Iraq, his immediate response would be the Iraq War. It gets confusing when the name is very similar to the Iraq War even with (2013–2017). Also the Kurds fought with the Iraqis and the conflict the Kurds had with Iraq is separate and has its own page. (See 2017 Iraqi–Kurdish conflict) BigRed606 (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

If i were to walk up to a random person and ask him about James Cameron, he would probably think of the filmmaker and not the Victorian politician. Yet we have an article named James Cameron (Victorian politician). Your argument would make sense if we named this article War in Iraq and not War in Iraq (2013–2017). But it's clear from the title that this relates to a post-2011 conflict, ie after US withdrawal. Koopinator (talk) 06:55, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Both arguments make sense, but I think Iraq–ISIL War is better because it’s very accurate and straight forward. It was a war between Iraq and ISIL, the conflict with Kurds has its own article and it was a separate conflict. I don’t mind War in Iraq (2013–2017) but I think I prefer Iraq–ISIL War Ehoah88880 (talk) 10:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Even with the kurdish own conflict it still ignores varios sunni groups who fought against the iraq government in early passes. Shadow4dark (talk) 11:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with that too. There are many Baathist faction, suni faction and even Kurd faction group who fought against Iraqi government. But we don't group them as subordinate of ISIL, although they collaborate with them. And what about CJTF-OIR, Iran, and Syria that fought against with ISIL? We should think about belligerent of this war. -- Wendylove (talk) 11:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

If we change the name of this article, we should change the name of ISIL insurgency in Iraq (2017–present) because in context it says "Several rebel groups, including ISIL, White Flags and the Iraqi Baath Party fight the Iraqi military (largely backed by the United States and other countries conducting airstrikes against ISIL) and allied paramilitary forces (largely backed by Iran)". I think it can be supplemented by resources which proves that other anti-government factions also involve in that insurgency. But I will make that talk after we discuss this debate. -- Wendylove (talk) 12:13, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Nah, 99% of the insurgency ongoing is led by ISIS. Baathists barely operate in the country now and there has been no incident of them attacking a Iraqi forces, White flag are part of ISIS. Ehoah88880 (talk) 23:25, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

so that's why we should give a resource to that one. Iraqi government claims that White Flags is part of Ansar Al-Islam, but there were no resources which says White Flags is part of ISIS. I want you to give a proof not a preference of title, because Wikipedia is not a place where its titles of article are not determined by flavor. You have changed the title of some conflicts which is related to ISIL by using the word "ISIL" which can be regarded as just flavor. You've changed the Sectarian violence in Iraq (2006–2009) because it is not used in common, and it should be same in other titles. -- Wendylove (talk) 00:56, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

There aren’t many resources calling it either an “insurgency” or “isis insurgency”, the current name makes it seem like there are multiple groups fighting in the conflict when really it’s just ISIS and a smaller ally of them. Iraqi insurgency is more associated with the insurgency of 2003-2013 Ehoah88880 (talk) 13:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Here's what i found in a quick google search:

• "The Islamic State (ISIS) has not made a comeback in Iraq or Syria – yet. The jihadist group survives as a deadly insurgency in both countries, but one that, compared to its earlier iterations, is weak and geographically circumscribed."
• "Even a low-level ISIS insurgency in Iraq and Syria will be detrimental to the coalition’s gains and strategic interests in both countries. To stave off what appears to be a growing ISIS insurgency, the U.S. — regardless of which party is in power — must pursue policies that redirect focus away from a singularly counter-Iran mission, reinvigorate coalition partners to invest and train in the region, surge efforts to support our Iraqi and Syrian partners, and embrace and invest in a diplomacy-first approach."
• "Although the Islamic State (ISIS) was territorially defeated in March 2019, the group has survived and remained relevant by reverting from a large proto-state to an insurgent entity with a localized approach, although it will retain the ability to conduct transcontinental terrorist attacks. In the past few months, ISIS’s actions in Iraq have demonstrated its resilience and dynamism. It retains significant freedom of operability in both rural and urban areas."
• This one has insurgency in the title: "Insurgents Again: The Islamic State’s Calculated Reversion to Attrition in the Syria-Iraq Border Region and Beyond"

Koopinator (talk) 10:52, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Most of them specify it as the “ISIL insurgency in Iraq”, you should take that conversation to the page ISIL insurgency in Iraq (2017–present) Ehoah88880 (talk) 14:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

It’s been over a week. Why don’t we move this to either Iraq–ISIL War or War in Iraq (2013–2017)? Ehoah88880 (talk) 14:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

The latter. Konli17 (talk) 14:46, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Ehoah88880: Why are you obsessed with ISIL? I will suppose the latter. -- Wendylove (talk) 05:30, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I am for ISIL insurgency War in Iraq, Iraq ISIL-War, and even ISIL-Iraq War, but what I will not accept is the War In Iraq. As I said above the War in Iraq is too vague and similar to the Iraq War even with (2013-2017), we can’t just have articles with similar titles and just add a date at the end. Their needs to be some diversity. BigRed606 (talk) 21:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

As said above we have more groups. So i will not accept ISL in title.Shadow4dark (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

If no consensus we should keep current name. Shadow4dark (talk) 09:30, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Support for War in Iraq (2013–2017), the name Iraq-ISIL War ignores the conflict with the kurds in 2017 and the conflict with other sunni insurgent groups during the beginning of the conflict. While it may be confused with the Iraq War, then so are other wars named “Six days war” such as Six Days War (2000) in that case that page has to be renamed to “Ugandan-Rwandan War” but it did not. It was a War in Iraq that lasted from 2013 to 2017. Just as simple as that. Ridax2020 (talk) 13:58, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

References

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We agreed to move to War in Iraq (2013–2017)

We agreed to move to War in Iraq (2013–2017) not War in Iraq (2013–17). Please change this title of article immediately. -- Wendylove (talk) 11:38, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I can’t change it because it here’s a redirect on War in Iraq (2013–2017). Try to get an admin to move it to that name Ridax2020 (talk) 13:34, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 12 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move after relist. Proponents of the move argue that the war was mainly, although not entirely, between the Iraqi state and the ISIL militant group. Opponents say that the term "Iraq–ISIL War" is not used in reliable sources and therefore cannot be a common name. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 11:30, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

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War in Iraq (2013–2017) → Iraq–ISIL War – After researching about the war and the factions involved, I realized that this was basically mainly a war between ISIS and Iraq. We were about to move to this name previously but had to cancel it because of the apparent involvement of many other groups in the war, but as I researched the factions not a single one of them were active since the late 2000s except for a few which are the naqshbandi, FIA and 1920 brigades, whom all have just a few thousand soldiers while ISIS had 100,000-200,000+. ISIL may have had a couple allies but barely any of them posed a massive military to be considered giant enough to avoid the name “Iraq-ISIL War.” I removed every non-active faction that were involved in the info box without sources. Most importantly, when someone searched about the war on google “Iraq isis war” or something like “war isis iraq” this article doesn’t show up, which makes it obscure. Ridax2020 (talk) 14:40, 12 May 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 13:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Ridax2020 (talk) 14:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• In case anyone wants to move back to the status quo “Iraqi Civil War”, just know that name was never used to describe this conflict and is more often used in the 2006 sunni-shia infighting. Ridax2020 (talk) 14:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

  oppose already discused above.Shadow4dark (talk) 16:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

  The old article we discussed was done when we had a large number of factions in the info box, i removed nearly all of them as i found 0 evidence that they’ve been active since the late 2000s, let alone their involvement in the 2013-2017 war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ridax2020 (talk • contribs) 2021-05-12T21:53:55 (UTC)

• weak oppose neutral White Flags, Free Iraqi Army, and the 2017 Iraqi–Kurdish conflict are still valid caveats here, although Ridax2020 also has a valid point that they are minor compared to the conflict with ISIL. Both names make sense, but i still have a preference for the status quo. For consistency's sake, we might also want to move ISIL insurgency in Iraq (2017–present) back to Iraqi insurgency (2017–present), as suggested on the talk page there. Koopinator (talk) 19:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

  Iraqi insurgency (2017-present) makes that article seem like there’s a massive insurgency of multiple factions against iraq like in the 2000s insurgency, which isn’t the case since its just ISIS and the name “Iraqi insurgency” mostly refers to either 2003-2011 or 2011-2013 or both combined. Most articles say “The ISIL insurgency in Iraq”. Also using your logic, Iran–Iraq War needs to change since many other tiny armed groups took part of it other than Iran and Iraq. Ridax2020 (talk) 21:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

  And regarding the 2017 Iraqi kurdish conflict, articles really don’t specify whether it was apart of this war or not. Ridax2020 (talk) 21:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

  Iran–Iraq War is an common name for the conflict, used in book titles, news articles, etc, whereas Iraq-ISIL war is a name we've just made up. I don't see insurgency as implying massive insurgency per se. Point conceded if most articles say “The ISIL insurgency in Iraq”. Koopinator (talk) 12:42, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

  Iraq–ISIL War isn’t a name we made up, most articles say “The war between Iraq and ISIL” or “The islamic state war in Iraq”, not the “War in iraq from 2013 to 2017” And most articles do say “ISIL insurgency in Iraq”. Ridax2020 (talk) 18:18, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

  Fair enough, changed to neutral. Koopinator (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support as I mentioned in above section the War in Iraq (2013-2017) is to similar to the Iraq War which is also referred to as the War in Iraq. BigRed606 (talk) 13:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

  See infobox, we have more groups than isis. Shadow4dark (talk) 13:20, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

  All these groups combined have a few thousand soldiers and another one of them stopped operating in late 2014, while ISIS had 100-200k+. Using your logic we have to rename Iran–Iraq War since it had a lot of belligerents. Ridax2020 (talk) 18:18, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Ridax2020 brings up some good points that I forgot to mention in my original argument in the request move from December, If we use the same standards which some are implying to keep the Article “War in Iraq (2013-2017)”, which is to keep it vague cause there is more than just two combatants, then we would have to change the Iran-Iraq War to the “War in Iraq” since there was more than just two combatants involved in that war as well. Remember the Wikipedia standards for the Name of a article goes By the common name the article is associated with, (read Wikipedia:Article titles)
  then if there is not a clear common name in which the article is associated with then you use the one or two main topics or subjects the article talks about. Since their is no main common name for the war we must use the two main subjects involved in the war, hence Iraq-ISIL War BigRed606 (talk) 21:33, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support Good proposal. It is so confusing this way. -- Maudslay II (talk) 08:28, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Nobody calls it the "Iraq–ISIL War". The current title is the most common term. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:41, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

  As BigRed606 said, according to Wikipedia:Article titles if there is not a clear common name in which the article is associated with then you use the one or two main topics or subjects the article talks about hence Iraq–ISIL War. Ridax2020 (talk) 09:07, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support I agree with a change to this or something similar only due to the similarity between 'War in Iraq' and 'Iraq War'. I'm aware of different groups involved in the conflict but I would say this is informative as, the conflict was more or less started because ISIS started taking stuff over and the fact that both Iraq/Kurdistan and ISIS were definitely the main belligerents during the war.ThePaganUK (talk) 21:39, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
• Comment. I think both names will work. But the name "War in Iraq" is much more appropriate, since the scale of the conflict really affected the entire country, including such a huge city like Mosul. In addition, there were clashes with other groups and forces. MarcusTraianus (talk) 11:57, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The conflict mainly centered in the Northern and western parts of the country, along with baghdad. The majority of the population live in the undisputed territories of Iraqi Kurdistan and the shia portion of iraq in the south, which weren’t affected by the war. Either way Iraq–ISIL War doesn’t say anything about the scale of the conflict Ridax2020 (talk) 12:27, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Can't agree. The Euphrates Valley was highly affected, where a huge portion of Iraqi population lives. Moreover, ISIL were close to Baghdad, and were repelled in Fallujah. But most importantly, Mosul fell to the ISIS hands, and a huge battle happened there. From my point of view, it definitely was a country-level conflict. MarcusTraianus (talk) 14:57, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.