Talk:Voluntary childlessness/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Requested move 22 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is against proposed move. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 21:17, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

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Voluntary childlessness → Childfreeness – I am offering four reasons for this new move request:

(1) The term "childfree" and its variants are more commonly used in books than "voluntary childlessness" and it's variants. See Google Ngram: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=childfreeness%2Cvoluntary+childlessness%2Cchildfree%2Cvoluntarily+childless&year_start=1960&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3

(2) The term "childfree" and its variants are more commonly used in research (see Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C23&q=childfree+OR+childfreeness&btnG=) than "voluntary childlessness" and its variants (see Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C23&q=%22voluntary+childlessness%22+OR+%22voluntarily+childless%22&btnG=)

(3) The term "childfree" and its variants are commonly used by journalists, for example: Time (cover story from August 2013: https://time.com/241/having-it-all-without-having-children/), Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/11/12/work-life-balance-child-free/), and Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-06-18/childfree-lonely-community-auntie-children).

(4) The term "childfree" is the term used by individuals who choose not to have children. For example, it is the term used in the day recognizing this population (International Childfree Day), the annual convention focused on this population (https://childfreeconvention.com/), and a magazine devoted to this population (https://childfreehappilyeverafter.com.au/childfreemag2/).

Previous move requests raised concerns of non-neutrality. Although the suffix "free" may have positive connotations, "childfree" is now the dominant term used to describe individuals who do not want to have children. It is no less neutral than, for example Black Lives Matter, which is not interpreted as making a non-neutral claim that Black lives matter, but simply as the widely-accepted name of a specific movement. Likewise, renaming this entry "childfree" should not be interpreted as making a non-neutral claim about the value of having or not having children, but simply an entry about the widely-used name of a reproductive decision. Zpneal (talk) 17:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: The rationale is mostly talking about the word "childfree", but the proposed title is "childfreeness", which is a different word. "Childfreeness" seems rather awkward and is almost never used. The current title seems adequate and neutral, so I don't really see a need to change it. "Childfree" also seems potentially non-neutral and somewhat of a neologism. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per BarrelProof as childfreeness seems to be an awkward and relatively uncommon neologism. Additionally, the term childfree(ness) may be viewed as having an ideological component (or at least an ideological connotation) that voluntary childlessness doesn't. Graham11 (talk) 01:55, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• I think nominator has made good case for "childfree" being used in reliable sources. Is "childfreeness" used in reliable sources as well? Is there another noun phrase like "childfree movement" that might also fit? @Graham11: @Barrelproof: do you have examples of recent reliable sources avoiding "childfree" or using another term? Fredlesaltique (talk) 02:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

@Fredlesaltique: Hey folks, please double check signatures, don’t just type display names. I’m not part of this discussion. Graham^talk/mail/e 03:07, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

@Fredlesaltique: Is "childfreeness" used in reliable sources as well? Comparatively very rarely, it appears.

do you have examples of recent reliable sources avoiding "childfree" or using another term? Sure, just looking at the first Google Books result for "childless", for instance, we have How to Be Childless: A History and Philosophy of Life Without Children (New York: Oxford University Press, 2020), by Rachel Chrastil, a American historian and Provost of Xavier University. She discusses her choice of terminology in the book's introduction:

Conversations about childlessness can be fraught with difficulty because through them we are making ethical claims about personal issues as well as ideas about family, work, and the purpose of life. It can be hard to get beyond our differences. Mutual suspicions of selfishness get tied up with mundane family guilt. Some people have a hard time even hearing the word childless. They hear "infertility" instead of "voluntary childlessness." They hear "unmarried women" rather than "women without children." In the past, they heard "nun" or "witch" or "prostitute."

It's still difficult to assign the appropriate term: "childfree" can be too aggressive; "childless," too much a lack. "Nulliparous" is technically accurate but frankly unappealing. I've defaulted to "childless," since that is the defining characteristic of the people I'm interested in, but with the caveat that I don't view the absence of children as a deficit to be overcome.

The introduction goes on to point out how the Google Books Ngram Viewer shows usage of childfree being a tiny fraction of usage of childless.

Is there another noun phrase like "childfree movement" that might also fit? Childfree, which entered widespread use over the past couple decades, is a term that is largely used by a modern social movement that views parenthood as impinging on their freedom. As Chrastil puts it,

The "childfree" (as they now styled themselves) viewed parenting as an all-or-nothing proposition. They defined parenting as a zero-sum game, only available by giving up on something else, and that something else was almost always called "freedom." Having children, they reported, would come at the cost of just about everything they cared about: a job, a good marriage, financial solvency, even competence. ...

Furthermore, American child-free advocates began to argue that childlessness was not only an acceptable path but also a better choice than parenthood.

This article, however, is not limited to this liberal social movement that began in the late 20th century (and that started emphasizing the term childfree in the 2000s). The article already discusses voluntary childlessness in the mid-20th century and its scope includes voluntary childlessness throughout history. Accordingly, "another noun phrase like 'childfree movement'" would be undesirable as it would limit the article's scope.

The nominator compares the term childfreeness to Black Lives Matter, but the reality is this would be equivalent to titling an article about opposition to anti-black racism "Black Lives Matter". While opponents of anti-black racism obviously hold that the lives of black people matter in some sense, the term Black Lives Matter refers to a specific 21st-century movement in the United States (and other countries in America's cultural sphere of influence). The term, as it is typically understood, doesn't encompass all activism in opposition to anti-black racism in all times and places. Similarly, while anyone who is voluntarily childless could be said to be free of children in some sense, using the term to title this article would be inappropriate as the term refers primarily to a specific 21st-century movement and not to the concept generally. Graham (talk) 05:57, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The Chrastil book is a helpful resource, but its relevance here is not clear. Chrastil is discussing all forms of not-having-children, including being childless (wanting but not having children) and being childfree (not wanting children). There is already an entry for this broad phenomenon at Childlessness. This entry is describing the much narrower and specific phenomenon of being childfree. As noted in the original nomination, research and media discussing this more specific phenomenon tend to use the term "childfree". Zpneal (talk) 13:22, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that most major dictionaries include childfree (meaning that it is in standard use) as being without children by choice or "especially by choice": Oxford (UK), Cambridge (UK), Collins (UK), MacMillan (US/UK), American Heritage (US). Exceptions are Merriam Webster (US; does not mention by choice) and Macquarie (Australia; no entry) Fredlesaltique (talk) 03:04, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

There is also a difference in scope between an article about the more general concept of voluntary childlessness and the recent "childfree" social movement that was identified as a trend in 2014 by Psychology Today. For example, Arthur Schopenhauer lived in the 1700s when the term "childfree" hadn't been invented yet, but he was an advocate of voluntary childlessness. Although the term "childfree" has apparently been dated to pre-1901 by Merriam-Webster, it was not a widely used term until much more recently. I think the current title is better, since it covers the entire phenomenon rather than just its most recent incarnation as a millennial and 21st century social trend. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The above comment can be partially viewed as amplifying Graham's remark that "the term childfree(ness) may be viewed as having an ideological component (or at least an ideological connotation) that voluntary childlessness doesn't." This ideological component implies a difference in scope that I believe is undesirable. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:07, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - Although childfree is in use, childfreeness is a neologism, and I agree it is awkward. A Google-Ngram shows more useage of childlessness and virtual no useage of childfreeness [1]. Netherzone (talk) 03:48, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the opposition point that "childfreeness" is both awkward and a rarely-used neologism. The term "childfree" is the more widely-used variant, and from the sources noted in the nomination, much more widely used than either "voluntary childlessness" or "voluntarily childless." I had (perhaps mistakenly) believed the entry title needed to be a noun. However, if using an adjective as the title is permitted, I would be happy to amend my move request to "childfree." Zpneal (talk) 12:15, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Adding another reason - The wikipedia category for articles relating to childfree/voluntarily childless content (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Childfree) is already called `childfree'. Zpneal (talk) 13:57, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

@Graham: do you have examples of other reliable sources that distinguish between "voluntary childlessness" or use other terms in place of "childfree"? If I understand correctly, your point is that "childfree" is only used for the modern movement. Fredlesaltique (talk) 11:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Notes

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Non sequitur

However, some childfree people explicitly reject antinatalism; they may even like the children of others, but just do not want any themselves.

What this implies (ie that one would expect that antinatalists don't like children) doesn't make much sense. Liking (or respecting children) is rather the reason why one would not want to create more of them and thereby expose them to harm, or pain, without their consent. 31.17.172.28 (talk) 15:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Um… no. That’s not how logic works. But okay. Dronebogus (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2023 (UTC)