Talk:Urinary incontinence/Archive 1

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Gomer2.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 July 2019 and 23 August 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Davdang, Cindytrac, Gabidriller, RwengUCSF, AMONGxicillin.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Public domain sources

Original public domain sources for much of this page:

• http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/urolog/pubs/uiwomen/uiwomen.htm
• http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/urolog/pubs/uichild/uichild.htm

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.253.40.142 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 25 February 2003‎

ABDL Content

Please see Talk:ABDL as to why I feel this content is not appropriate. brenneman^(t)(c) 12:08, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

This page could use some changes

• Nothing is said about management of UI e.g. with catheters or absorbent products. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.6.8.72 (talk) 12:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
• It only mentions UI in women and children - nothing about men. Most of the generic (non gender-related) information is under the "UI in women" section. No mentions of BPH (enlarged prostate) anywhere either.
• Nothing is said about general impact (toilet mapping, avoiding social exposure, associated costs, etc)
• Nothing is said about psychological consequences (isolation, shame, anxiety, depression, etc)
• The resource section has only 1 external link which could be moved to external links perhaps. Lots more resources could be added (NAFC, Continence Foundation, etc... There are lots and lots of them).
• More treatment options exist nowadays, and as far as medications, none of the most widely used ones are mentionned (detrol and ditropan), not even using generic names.
• No statistics or figures of any kind (like prevalence) are mentionned
• No description of stop of urine flow muscles (2) at least in men and how the remaining one can be strengthened in the case of say a radical prostectomy where one is removed. Does the "Kegel" exercise work ror both sexes?

(Unsigned edit by 24.222.204.78 (talk • contribs • block • block log)) Does anyone know how often an event must occur to be considered urinary continence. Everyone says keep a diary. But what does the doctor look for from the diary? Go to urology on google for some excellent sources that can be referenced What about the use of a urethra support sling.. what are the benefits of that.. on younger women

• Content in Enuresis is over simplified, more the sort of thing you would see in simple English Wikipedia. Fema5 (talk) 00:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Incontinence in children

The section in question needlessly repeats information stated earlier in the article, and the first two sub-headings are rather awkwardly phrased. Secondly, it reads like it was copied from a website with a much younger target audience. 70.68.181.169 10:36, 16 May 2006 UTC What about the option of a urethral support sling as a remedy option for younger women

Sources

There are no sources cited in this article. I'll begin to remove unsourced material over the next couple of days, a little at a time.
brenneman ^{L} 12:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Highly Sexist Content

Article contains virtually nothing about male conditions, their causes, and treatment, which is par for the course. The article should probably be renamed Incontinence (Female) -- but on the other hand, knowing the incidental priority doctors give their male patients, there might never be an article about Incontinence (Male). 68.5.64.178 08:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Please feel free to add that information yourself. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

External links

External links on Wikipedia are supposed to be "encyclopedic in nature" and useful to a worldwide audience. Please read the external links policy (and perhaps the specific rules for medicine-related articles) before adding more external links.

The following kinds of links are inappropriate:

• Online discussion groups or chat forums
• Personal webpages and blogs
• Multiple links to the same website
• Fundraising events or groups
• Websites that are recruiting for clinical trials
• Websites that are selling things (e.g., books or memberships)

I realize that some links are helpful to certain users, but they still do not comply with Wikipedia policy, and therefore must not be included in the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Enuresis Redirect

The enuresis stub article was changed to a redirect to this page. I would appreciate input about whether or not this is correct. I have two questions:

1) Should the redirect point here? 2) If not, should it point to bedwetting or should it be a standalone page?

Here is the background. From my reading on the subject, there is some change occurring in the use of the term enuresis. Historically, the word has been used as:

• Synonymous with incontinence
• Referred to intermittent wetting, either during the day or night.
• Referring exclusively to bedwetting

The eMedicine definition is an example of this historical vagueness: "In North America, the term is used to refer to wetting by night or day, and nighttime wetting is referred to as nocturnal enuresis (NE)." Does this mean enuresis = incontinence?

There is a recent push to clarify the term, having it only apply to bedwetting. The ICCS has proposed a, "Standardization of Terminology for Lower Urinary Tract Function in Children and Adolescents."[1] The reporting committee defines enuresis as,

"Synonymous to intermittent nocturnal incontinence. It means incontinence in discrete episodes while asleep. Enuresis (or nocturnal incontinence) is a symptom and a condition."

So, the current push is to clarify the usage of enuresis to be synonymous with betwetting.

I had intended to edit the enuresis stub to explain this, but it was changed to a redirect before I could add the information. My thought is to revert the change and add the explaination about the changing usage. Please share your input. Wshallwshall (talk) 04:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking along the same lines when I made the redirect, but I decided that instead of explaining Enuresis in a stand-alone article, it would be better incorporated into Urinary incontinence. UI is a medical subject that I think would benefit from a broad encyclopedic treatment. Otherwise, there is too much disambiguation needed, repeated, on each article. On the other hand, if the article delves into the history of the recognition of enuresis as episodic urinary incontinence while asleep, and the history of its supposed causes and management, separate from other forms of UI, then Enuresis may stand on its own. --Una Smith (talk) 03:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. That's a good point. A separate enuresis page would need to be a combination of a disambiguation page and an explaination of the changing usage of the term. It would be tricky, because people would be likely to start editing the page and adding content to it. Maybe adding a tag at the top of this page and an explanation to the UI text would be be better. You've made a good point. Since there's no rush, I'm going to think about it for a few days and see if any suggestions come in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wshallwshall (talk • contribs) 07:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Enuresis is one of many forms of UI; I moved it from the lead to the Types section, which already is a long disambig of sorts. I stuck enuresis in the lead only because the old Enuresis stub described it as UI, and I was feeling lazy. --Una Smith (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

From reading both articles, suggestion is that enuresis = more pediatrics, more physchiatry. Similar to encopresis and fecal incontinence, or parcopresis and anismus... keep separate articles in all these cases imo. 15:08, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed on the subject of keeping them as separate articles. Enuresis is more related to pediatrics and psychiatry. Compare the trees (be sure to scroll down) on these pages from the National Library of Medicine on Enuresis [2] and Urinary Incontinence [3]. The enuresis page does mention that it can be in adults, but it also refers to that classification in children and adults as being primary (continuing from childhood in the case of adults) or secondary, which, oddly enough, doesn't have to be adult-onset, so I'm a tad confused by that, but anyway, it classifies it separately.

Additionally, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary entry on enuresis[4], if you scroll down to the "Consise Encyclopedia" heading, specifically refers to it being in children. --173.88.113.201 (talk) 01:17, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Japanese Children Late at Toilet-training?

I ask if this is reliable because (a) the reference links now lead to a redirect with no article. (b) the Japanese Wikipedia says the exact opposite. Look at the Use in Other Countries section of the Japanese diaper article (with babelfish, if necessary). It explains the popularity of disposable diapers in the West by heavy babies and very late toilet training. Can anyone find a better (preferable existing) source for these studies? Estemi (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any good sources for Wikipedia but this is something many "attachment parenting" (AP) parents get into, and they all agree that in Asian cultures toilet training happens earlier than in "the west". It is true that in the US toilet training indeed is happening later and later. However, I have not seen proof of a causal link from increased use of disposable diapers to later toilet training. It is my understanding that in the US toilet training is happening later even when parents use cloth diapers. There is also a complicating factor: changing patterns of care giving for pre-school children. Diaper or no diaper is a very important dividing line. --Una Smith (talk) 03:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Copied and pasted section (Marshall-Marchetti-Krantz)

I think the Marshall-Marchetti-Krantz section of the article was copied and pasted from this site. The section should probably be rewritten or something unless that content is freely licensed. Just pointing that out, I have no knowledge of the subject and wouldn't be able to really rewrite it myself. 98.17.59.63 (talk) 05:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

burch procedure

both the burch and sling procedure deserve their own articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.151.240.70 (talk) 22:59, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on why? Burch is only mentioned in passing in the article, and there is some content in slings (about a page worth), but it fits quite well within the context of the article. Why do you think they should be broken up? Chaldor (talk) 23:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a reference to the artificial sphincters as well. Marcusbacus (talk) 02:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Text from Incontinence

Incontinence, a disambiguation page, had accumulated the following section which I deleted from that page. --Una Smith (talk) 22:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Medicine

Incontinence is the lack of voluntary control of excretory functions; the term is a contraction of a complete expression, such as "incontinence of urine" or "incontinence of feces". Incontinence mostly occurs in adults but can also occur in teens. Incontinence is usually referred to in urine when leakage occurs that cannot be helped or stopped. There are two different types of urinary incontinence: stress and urge.

Incontinence of stress is when leakage occurs during laughter, sneezing, coughing, etc. Usually, those with stress incontinence do not recognize it as a medical condition. In most cases, stress incontinence is not dangerous and can often be treated through retraining of urethral muscles. Proper training of the pelvic floor muscles can occur through guidance by a Women's Health Physical Therapist.

Incontinence of urge, however, is when you feel the sudden need to urinate and cannot help but have an accident. This is caused by losing the first message sensation telling you that you need to urinate.

Children

"Twice as common in girls as in boys?" Riiiiight... somehow I think that whoever put that there is making stuff up either trying to be funny or has a fetish for that kind of thing Enferloup (talk) 23:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Laughter

Should someone mention how some people piss their pants laughing, and the scientific basis behind that? Thanks. 24.57.64.246 (talk) 19:43, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Great idea! As it turns out, it's called giggle incontinence. Google found lots of material about it and I built a stub article. Cheers, CliffC (talk) 00:52, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Physical therapy treatment for urinary incontinence

The treatment section on urinary incontinence makes no mention of Physical Therapy. Studies have shown that physical therapy is as effective as medication in the treatment of urinary incontinence. Physical therapy can also help avoid unnecessary surgeries. Patients should ask their doctors about physical therapy treatment for incontinence, and consult with a PT who specializes in the treatment of incontinence. Soapsoap (talk) 21:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC) s.

There is a section on pelvic floor exercises that could use a citation. I added a mention of bladder retraining with an internet link.--1archie99 (talk) 22:16, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Artificial Sphincter

There's no mention of the Artificial Urinary Sphincter treatment either. The AMS800 model from American Medical Systems started to be developed in 1972, and around 90,000 of these devices were implanted in men and women all around the world. It has a very strong success rate from the reports of users. There is also another maker of a similar model in Switzerland. Marcusbacus (talk) 19:46, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

sorry, but what has that to do with urinary incontinence? --Dia^ (talk) 14:59, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

reversion of recent edits

The content of this section requires considerable revision to make it i=useful to the consumer or healthcare professional. I have endeavoured to make those changes but they have all been reverted. This is unfortunate. I would be happy to assist the original author of this document to make it more accurate and useful. (Farrsa (talk) 19:49, 23 September 2012 (UTC))

A couple of points as where noted on your talk page. One is that we need to write in an encyclopedic format the second is that references are required. A few useful guidelines are WP:MEDRS and WP:MEDMOS Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

"Consumer" ... call them patients PLEASE ;D tepi (talk) 01:38, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Hypopressive exercises

I can't find the papers themselves, only references to them: [5]

In the mean time this paper talks about hypopressive exercises leading to increased surface area of levator ani in patients with urinary incontinence, who are thought to have decreased surface area of levator ani.

Bernardes, Bruno Teixeira (1 January 2012). "Efficacy of pelvic floor muscle training and hypopressive exercises for treating pelvic organ prolapse in women: randomized controlled trial". Sao Paulo Medical Journal. 130 (1): 5–9. doi:10.1590/S1516-31802012000100002. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

tepi (talk) 01:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tepi, an article Talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. Can you please explain what changes you are proposing to make to the article Urinary incontinence? Thanks... Zad68 01:53, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

There are no secondary sources on this topic just primary ones. I recommend we wait until some secondary sources become available. This is in the very early stages of study by the looks of it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:25, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Cochrane Incontinence group

Maybe a useful source for editors of this page... [6] p = 0.05 (talk) 19:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

more [www.icsoffice.org/Publications/ICI_2/chapters/Chap04.pdf] lesion (talk) 03:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Enuresis article

This subject is (basically) being discussed elsewhere on this page, at least in terms of whether or not Enuresis and Urinary incontinence should be separate articles under the heading "Enuresis Redirect" [7]. Merging the articles would render the enuresis page a redirect, so the discussion applies, as far as I can tell. --173.88.113.201 (talk) 01:27, 19 February 2013 (UTC) I have removed the merge tags for the following reasons:

• Merge has been proposed and no comments made for eight months.
• Numerous sources differentiate between urinary incontinence, and urinary incontinence in children (enuresis). There appears to be a psychological definition in the DSM-IV for enuresis.

Kind Regards, LT90001 (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Image

Wondering what others thoughts are on having the lead image be a random elderly women? It is an identifiable photo of someone who probably does not have the condition. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:53, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't add any information. I'd remove it. Sizeofint (talk) 02:20, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I have. I have concerns with associating an identifiable elderly women who does not appear to have the condition with it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm amazed that the image was restored twice today. This is a blatant WP:BLP violation. It would be like facebook using someone's profile pic in an ad for hemorrhoid cream. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 11:50, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Do we really need an image at all? I'm pretty sure that most people who are old enough to read (and even many that aren't) are also old enough to know what happens if you don't make it to the toilet in time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:46, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I share the same concern about being an identifiable photo, and it doesn't even illustrate the condition addressed. I would suggest an infographic or pictogram instead. --MonWiki (talk) 21:01, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for notifying me regarding the questions using the photo. BLP issues did not occur to me. Since such a high percentage of older women struggle with this medical condition, the photo was meant to represent the population at risk suffering from this condition. That doesn't meat I was 'right', I just want to let you know the 'why' of the photo. I don't want to break any rules/guidelines. I also, then have no idea that the photos on commons really can't be used for any purpose whatsoever. I have no problem with 'no photo', then at all. As for knowing what "happens if you don't make it to the toilet on time"-well that is a different story. Everyone doesn't know what happens when you don't make it to the toilet on time. The life span and quality of life greatly diminishes related to this condition and I regret that information is not yet in the article. Once you get this condition, your life deteriorates, you acquire risks for developing other co-morbidities that can be fatal...and lots of other women's health concerns, geriatric concerns, infectious concerns. If grandma gets this, she doesn't talk about it and the family doesn't have the information they need about the condition...yet. We probably need to keep the policy in mind in all other med articles and delete images of the person(s) that are associated with the condition since their image is a BLP problem. Assume good faith on my part (and stupidity if you want). Best Regards,

Barbara (WVS) (talk) 12:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your response Barbara (WVS). Seems this article has plenty of scope for expansion. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 23:36, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Feel free to jump right in, it needs a lot of work to expand. Best Regards,

Barbara (WVS) (talk) 17:44, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Source

• 10.1001/jama.2014.303.

Barbara (WVS) ✐  ✉ 11:03, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Wiki Project Med student editor

Hello editors, I am a medical student at Tel Aviv University who was assigned this article as part of a wikimed elective course. There appears to be a gender-imbalance in this article (toward female UI), as well as a lack of information (causes, mechanisms, etc.) and inconsistencies in reference formatting. Will try to address some of the more critical issues. Please reach out to me with comments/questions/concerns regarding my edits.Gomer2 (talk) 17:00, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Project Med student Evaluation

Good additions. One issue that you identified in the talk page was the imbalance in the article between treatment for women and men. One way to improve this maybe to group the different treatments accordingly so as to provide a clearer idea of the treatment options for the two groups. IntothesameImage (talk) 09:01, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

UCSF Foundations 2 2019 Group 6C Goals

Hello Wiki!

We are 2nd year pharmacy students from UCSF and are working with faculty to make edits to this Wikipedia page over the next few weeks. Our plan for improving the article include the following:

• Elaborate on injectable treatments for urinary incontinence
• Add more information about recommended screening for men
• Add more epidemiological data for children (with citations)
• Discuss causes of urinary incontinence for men under “Causes” section
• Add "lifestyle changes" section
• Mention associations with Alzheimer's

Please let us know any comments/concerns/questions about our proposed changes! Cindytrac (talk) 21:28, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

UCSF Foundations 2 2019, Group 6b Peer Reviews

Jennie's Peer Review (Group 6b):

1. Overall Group 6C made improvements to the article. They did a good job giving a brief overview on injectable treatment. I think it would also be nice to add examples of different types of common urethral injectable bulking agents.
2. Group 6C worked on 3 out of their 6 goals for improvement. There is still room to further improve the article.
3. Group 6C's contribution reflects a neutral point of view. Jhum4993 (talk) 21:16, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Ally's Peer Review (Group 6b)

1. Do the group’s edits substantially improve the article as described in the Wikipedia peer review “Guiding framework”? Has the group achieved its overall goals for improvement?

• The group did add more information about screening and injectable treatments for urinary incontinence. I like that they also added the mechanism and mentioned that there is a lack of data regarding their efficacy. I think it would be nice to expand a little bit on who may benefit from the different treatment types such as on uptodate when it mentions that men who aren't a candidate for surgery may benefit from the injectable.
• Although not all goals were addressed (can't see any edits for children epidemiological data or alzheimers), I liked the expansion on medications that are available as well as screening for women. I think another section on screening for men could be helpful to be comprehensive. Overall good edits.

The edits made all have citations from wiki approved sources such as systematic reviews. Allydiiorio (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Gabi's Peer Review (Group 6b)

1. Group 6c added information about screening for urinary incontinence, lifestyle changes that can help to manage urinary incontinence, and medications (injectable and oral) that treat urinary incontinence to the article. These edits substantially improved the information provided in the article, however I would encourage that injectable treatments are listed either under the Management or under the Medications sections to better organize the article.
2. The group achieved some of their goals. Specifically, they did not address: the epidemiological data for children, the association with Alzheimer's, and the causes of urinary incontinence.
3. All edits that group 6c are formatted consistent with Wikipedia's manual of style. Gabidriller (talk) 16:53, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Thien's Peer Review (Group 6b)

Group 6c was able to complete a majority of their goals for this article. They expanded upon screening for urinary incontinence, medications and lifestyle changes. These edits help improve the overall understanding of urinary incontinence. Something to further include the article might be expanding on the medications used and in addition to the lifestyle changes section. Tnguyen26 (talk) 20:50, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Neurogenic bladder

Apart from a bare passing mention of spinal cord injury as a cause, there is basically no discussion in this article of incontinence due to neurogenic bladder. It's a major topic in disability media. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:08, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Lack of clarity re: treatments by different sex/gender

Taking into account:

1. the Dec 2023 rough consensus to use the reproductive definition of sex (and not the multifactorial one) on the Sex page
2. multiple mentions of the gender imbalance present in this article
3. the lack of clear signalling that the VAST majority of the sources cited in the "Behavioral therapy, physical therapy and exercise" section are supported by evidence based on studies of only female populations

I suggest splitting that section into "Male" and "Female" (similar to the CAUSES section), and citing evidence in the "men" section only if the studies included men.

This may result in a very brief Male section, as of now, but ideally it would make it clear that more work is needed by an expert who knows about treatment for male urinary incontinence. Terrapinaz (talk) 11:42, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Copyright

It is hard to say who has copied from whom. If someone could look into the similarity we have with http://www.dignimed.com/incontinence-info/ that would be great Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:17, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

At a glance... our current text seems to have resulted from a somewhat convolutipedic evolution (see for example, January vs June 2007: [8] vs [9]). So I doubt it was us copying them. More likely the other way round. —MistyMorn (talk) 12:38, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Charming. Not only did they rip out the references, and then fail to attribute us in violation of the Terms of Use, they also stuck their own copyright notice on it. I've added {{backwardscopy}} to the top of this page. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 16:06, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

They do not have a very reputable looking website. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, blatant plagiarism by DigniMed. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Their catchphrase is "We will treat you with the dignity and respect you deserve!" Ironic. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:55, 2 September 2012 (UTC)