Talk:Ulva Belsham

Relatives

There are no citations provided for the statements about Belsham's relatives in the infobox, so removing for discussion/provision of reliable references:

• John Howell (great-great grandfather)
• Marilyn Pryor (first cousin thrice removed)
• Selwyn Toogood (half-third cousin twice removed)
• Peter Arnett (distant cousin)

MurielMary (talk) 04:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Kia ora Muriel. Unfortunately, I think you'd be hard-pressed right now to find a source that directly says "all these people are related to each other" with their relatively low levels of fame, and mostly being born in the past century. But, the relationships between these mentioned individuals are a source of pride amongst their common relatives - close and distant (so long as they know their whakapapa!) Since 4/5 of these people were contemporaries, they were at least vaguely aware of each other's existence give or take; Ulva being a genealogist and researcher herself, frequently communicated with Marilyn's family and shared notes with them. There are more 'official' references that can be used to cite the relationships, but would require writing the explanations into the relevant articles.

A source for John Howell as Belsham's great-great grandfather was added in Muriel's edit in 2018: the linked source says John Howell and Koi Koi Patu's daughter, Mrs Sarah Ann Cameron, was Mrs Mary Joss's mother, who in turn was Louise's mother. Te Pānui Rūnaka, published by Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu and archived on issuu, was probably the source which FindAGrave took this information from to begin with. Selwyn Toogood, in his book "Out of the Bag", talks about his childhood and his ancestry from Howell and his second wife Caroline. Also, in Peter Arnett's book, "Live from the Battlefield", on page 20, he says Koi Koi's cousin was Mere Wehikore, wife of James Leader, and that they are his great-great grandparents. So, Belsham and Arnett are fourth cousins, but Arnett and Toogood are not related to each other. Pryor's mother, the roughly-half Kāi Tahu Māori named Eunice "Noonie" Lobb née Gilroy (b.1911/5218), was a daughter of Emma Valeria Gilroy née Joss (b.1884/5217), who herself was Louise's sister. The number strings are the registration numbers for their birth certificates which can be entered on the NZ BDM website. The search results list birth parents.

Hopefully this helps - it seems Marilyn and Ulva's relationship was listed incorrectly, they're more like first cousins once-removed! The one with Selwyn is a brain poop too - should be half-second cousin-once removed - no wonder you were suspicious. Lerf Lerfsson (talk) 10:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Kia ora Lerf. I can see the connections you describe, however I don't think it is in line with WP policy to include material such as this in a biography. The requirement is that statements are backed up by reliable, published, secondary sources which make the same statements as those made in the WP article. There are steps of logic and assumptions being made between the sources you state above and the conclusions of kinship in the article. MurielMary (talk) 10:34, 9 May 2020 (UTC)