Talk:Ukrainian Brazilians
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People of Jewish origin edit
Ukraine was home to very many Jews, some of whom emigrated to Brazil. I've removed those people from the list of prominant Ukrainians because although they or their ancestors were from lands that are Ukraine they were not Ukrainians. Many of their ancestors were from cities (such as Odessa) where few people were actually Ukrainian and where very few even spoke Ukrainian. These people better belong in the article on Brazilian Jews. Otherwise even Sigmund Freud will become a prominant Ukrainian (his ancestors were from a shtetl in what is now Ukraine)Faustian (talk) 21:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is racism. In Nazi Germany, Jews were not considered "Germans" because of their non-Germanic origins and their religion. This is ridiculous.
Why are you claiming a people who has been living in Ukraine for at least 1 thousand year is not Ukrainian? Only because of their faith?
This sounds Nazi to me. Ukrainian-Jews have been living there for centuries. This make them Ukrainians; maybe more Ukrainians than many "ethinic Ukrainians". Opinoso (talk) 14:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- In Ukraine (and elsewhere in Eastern Europe) Jews are considered a nationality and not just religion - it said so on their passports. For example there are some Orthodox Christians who are Jewish by nationality (see for example Alexander Men).
- Particularly 100 years ago, there was segregation in that Jews lived in their own settlements, spoke Yiddish or Hebrew (and Polish) and not a word of Ukrainian. Nowadays they would be considered Ukrainain because of Ukrainian citizenship. But in those days even that would not be the case. With respect to living in Ukraine for 1,000 - yes, but again that does not mean that they are Ukrainian. Poles, for example, have lived in Ukraine for centuries also, and yet they are not categorized on wikipedia as Ukrainians. Look at the articles on Stanisław Albinowski, the writer Joseph Conrad, and many others all born in what is now Ukraine but properly categorized as Poles. With respect to Jews, famous Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, whose family originates in UKraine, also not considered Ukrainian. And the famous Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal is also from Ukraine, and is properly labeleld as JEwish or Austrian or Ukrainian Jew. He would probably be surprised to be called a "Ukrainian."
- There is nothing Nazi-like or racist about proper categorization.Faustian (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- We are in 2008, not in 1850.
Nowadays, Jews born in Ukraine are considered Ukrainians. We don't care if 100 years ago they were not. Opinoso (talk) 21:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- I suggest you read the history of Odessa and New Russia before you refer to these people as Ukrainians. Any Ukrainian or Jew from Ukraine reading this will laugh.Faustian (talk) 23:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Laugh? This is serious. Nazi people argued German Jews were not Germans and killed them.
Nowadays, everybody see Jews born in Ukraine as Ukrainians. Ask people's opinition before excluding Jews from Ukrainian list only because of their religion and origin. Opinoso (talk) 00:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Godwin's law. Nazis probably also used umbrellas when it rained. So we should not use umbrellas when it rains? Fact is that when these people or their anccestors lived what is now Ukraine was part of Poland, Austria or Russia. So they were Polish or Russian or Austrian citizens. These people weren't Ukrainian ethnically either - they were Jews. Nor were they Ukrainian speaking. One of them was from Odesa. Do you know the history of Odessa? It was founded by the Russian empress Catherine II and settled by Russians and Russian-speaking Jews. Those people were as Ukrainian as a typical resident of New York is an Iroquois.
- Read the article about shtetls. From the article: "The shtetl's main interaction with gentile citizens was in trading with the neighboring peasants. There was often animosity towards the Jews from these peasants, resulting in pogroms. This, among other things, helped foster a very strong "us-them" mentality based on an exaggeration of differences between the peoples."
- One of the people you list as a Ukrainian is Clarice Lispector. From her page: "Chaya Lispector was born in Chechelnyk, Podolia, a shtetl in what is today Ukraine. She was the youngest of three daughters of Pinkhas Lispector and Mania Krimgold Lispector. Her family suffered terribly during the pogroms that followed the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the Russian Civil War, circumstances later dramatized by her older sister Elisa Lispector's autobiographical novel No exílio (In Exile, 1948)." So, a Jewish girl (who never in her life would consider herself a Ukrainian) from what was at the time Russia, horribly persecuted by Ukrainians, becomes herself a Ukrainian because 80 years after leaving the place the territory where her village once was became part of independent Ukraine. It's just silly and, again, any eastern European reading the article claiming that these people were Ukrainians will find it funny. It reminds me of how funny a Russian friend from Tashkent found it when some American called him an Uzbek. Such mistakes really detract from the article's quality.
- But don't take my word for it. Find some well-known Jews or Poles or Russians from Ukraine and put them in the Ukrainian category. See how quickly you get reverted there, too. You can start with Joseph Conrad, a Polish-English writer who was born in territory that is now Ukraine. Go for it.Faustian (talk) 04:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Who cares about race, religion or identity? Nowadays everybody see a person born in Ukraine as being Ukrainian. Nobody cares if people did not see this way 200 years ago.
Stop trying to revive a 200 years ago segregationist concept. Opinoso (talk) 04:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is not my opinion. Jews were persecuted for centuries in Europe, and Europeans tried in every way excluded them from the context of the continent, trying to make them something a part from reality, even after a thousand years living in Europe.
If those Jews did not consider themselves to be Ukrainians, we don't care. Probably many Christian Ukrainians living in the border with Poland or Russia did not see themselves as Ukrainians at that time as well.
Those Brazilians do have ancestors who were born, raised and lived in nowadays Ukraine for centuries. We don't care if these ancestors were Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Buddshist, whatever.
The fact is that they have ancestors living in Ukraine for at least 1 thousand years, not matter their religion or what was writen in their passport.
I will not accept that 200 years ago racist views have space in Wikipedia. Jews were not accepted as Ukrainians only because of their religion. If a Jew wanted to hide his ancestry and came up saying he was Christian at that time, he would probably become a Ukrainian to the view of the society.
This is ridiculous.
Stop racism. Opinoso (talk) 04:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't appreciate your insults. As I explained, it was not even Ukraine when they lived there. Non-Ukrainian did live in the territory that is now Ukraine, you know. Please read and address my comments rather than just throw around insults. Read this article about the Russian writer born in Ukraine, Mikhail Bulgakov. He's not considered Ukrainian either. Is this racism too?Faustian (talk) 04:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Summary of my argument regarding Ukrainian ornot Ukrainian edit
The issue of contention has to do with whether or not Jews from what was then Russia but now Ukraine should be categorized as Brazilian-Ukrainians. I state that they should not for reasons best summarized in a comment provided by ananonymous editor on the Clarice Lispector talk page [2]:
- If I may weigh in here, for what it's worth, because this is an interesting question: at the time of Lispector's birth, there was no such thing as a Ukrainian Jew. The most accurate way to describe her would be as a Russian Jew, and this is indeed how the Jews who immigrated to the New World described themselves in their new countries. In Brazil as in the United States, there was no such category as Ukrainian Jews for the simple reason that there was no such thing as a Ukrainian state. Under the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, the Ukrainians and the Jews were considered two separate ethnicities. And earlier, the Jews, like the Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, and so forth, belonged to the Russian Empire and could thus be described as Russians, and all the other labels were ethnic rather than national. In my opinion, the category of "Ukrainian Jews," properly speaking, can really only be given to a Jewish citizen of the Republic of Ukraine, i.e. since Ukrainian independence following the breakup of the Soviet Union, and is ahistorical when applied to 1920. The Lispector family were Russian citizens and travelled to Brazil on a Russian passport. But "Jewish" was absolutely an official ethnic category at the time, though it is nice to know that the current Ukrainian state has eliminated that distinction in its passports and other documents. 213.10.130.30 (talk) 15:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Essentially, people who were neither Ukrainian citizens, nor ethnic Ukrainians, nor Ukrainian-speaking should not be considered Ukrainians simply because the territory they left would decades later become the state of Ukraine.
I would note that there are very many non-Ukrainians from Ukraine, and there is nothing controversial about not categorizing them as Ukrainians. So there is a well-established precedent of not doing so. Here a just a few of many examples (I could literally give a list of hundreds if I had more time):
- Mikhail Bulgakov, Russian writer, born and spent his early years in Kiev, today's capital
- Isaac Babel, famous Jewish writer from Odessa
- Leon Trotsky, Revolutionary
- Golda Meir, Israeli prime minister, a Jew born in Kiev when it was part of Russia, today's Ukrainian capital
- Joseph Conrad, Polish writer born in a Polish estate in Ukraine
- Keni Liptzin, famous actress of Yiddish theater, born in Zhytomir, Ukraine
- Sviatoslav Richter, famous Soviet piantist, half-German, half-Russian. Born in Zhytomir and grew up in Odessa, Ukraine.
All of the people above are non-Ukrainians, despite all being from Ukraine. None of their wikipedia pages classifies then as Ukrainian. And if someone would try to do so to a well-known person such as Bulgakov, they would be quickly and correctly reverted. Why should the Brazilian Jews who emigrated from parts of the Russian Empire that are now Ukraine be any different from the Jews, Russians, Poles or Germans from Ukraine in the above list?Faustian (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- So, Faustian, are you assuming that:
- George Washington, the first president of the United States, was not American because when he was born there was no "United States", but the 13 Colonies under British control?
- Are you assuming Dante Alighieri, the father of the modern Italian language, was not Italian because when he was born there was not an unified Italy?
- But he was of Italian ethynicity, as was Goethe who was not born in a unified Germany.Faustian (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Are you assuming Martin Luther was not German, because when he was born there was not an unified Germany?
- Are you assuming Albert Einstein was not a German physicist, because of his Jewish origin?
I am sorry, but you have an old conseption. Opinoso (talk) 18:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- None of the conditions above apply to the people we are discussing here, who were never Ukrainian citizens nor of Ukrainian ethnicity.Faustian (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- As for "odd conseption", it is the same "odd conseption" that is shared by the editors of the articles on Leon Trotsky, Mikhail Bulgakov, Joseph Conrad and hundreds of others written about non-Ukrainians who lived in Ukraine, who were correctly not categorized as Ukrainians.Faustian (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- All these people you posted were born in nowadays Ukraine, but lived mostly in another country and their parents were from Russia or Poland. Clarice Lispector is the example: she was born in Ukraine, but lived all her life in Brazil and is treated as Brazilian.
However, her parents were not from Russia or Poland. They were from Ukraine. Probably her grandparents and her family have been living in Ukraine for 1 thousand years.
- Who knows? Most Jews in Ukraine arrived 500 years ago - that's why they spoke a German dialect called Yiddish. They arrived at a similar time as the Poles who also lived in UKraine for 500 years. I gave the example of Joseph Conrad, a Polish writer born in Ukraine whose family lived in Ukraine 500 years. He is not labelled as a Ukrainian writer. If someone labelled him as such, it would just be funny for any Pole or Ukrainian to read and would be reverted quickly by some Pole or Ukrainian.Faustian (talk) 18:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The people you posted were only born in Ukraine, to non-Ukrainians parents and most did not spend their lives in Ukraine. I am sure that Jew, born in Ukraine, to Ukrainian parents and lived in Ukraine would be called "Ukrainian".
- The people I posted were born in Ukraine to non-Ukrainian parents. The people you posted were also born in Ukraine to non-Ukrainian parents. What is the difference? The Jews about whom you posted did not have Ukrainian parents - they had Jewish parents. Just like the Russians had Russian parents and the Poles had Polish parents. The Jews themselves never considered themselves Ukrainians - they considered themselves to be Russian Jews.Faustian (talk) 18:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- BTW I posted several Jews on that list - Isaac Babel for instance. He was not considered Ukrainian, despite having been born in Ukraine and having spent his youth and much of his career there.Faustian (talk) 18:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The people you posted are not examples. They did not work in Ukraine. Their did notority in other countries. Opinoso (talk) 18:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- The people about whom I posted were as Ukrainian as the people about whom you posted - they were all equally not Ukrainian. Actually some of them worked much more in Ukraine than the people you posted. Look into the biograpies of Isaac Babel, Sviatoslav Richter, and Mikhail Bulgakov. For example Sviatoslav Richter was born in Ukraine, studied there, and began his career in the Odessa opera. Yet he, the son of a Russian mother and German father, is not labelled as Ukrainian. I also included several JEws on my list, none of whom are labelled as Ukrainian either.Faustian (talk) 18:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- The people you posted are mostly connect to this Odessa, which is an exception. All the people you posted have Russian, German or Polish parents. Most have worked out of Ukraine.
- Wrong. Reread what I wrote. I included several Jews in my list of people born in Ukraine who are not considered Ukrainian. Have you ever heard of the writer Isaac Babel] or about Leon Trotsky?
You cannot assumed a person was Ukrainian or not because of his or her religion. How can you assume Clarice Lispector was totally Jewish? Maybe her grandmother was a Christian Ukrainian. Does this make her more or less Ukrainian?
Me and other users do not agree with or view: Christians born in Ukraine are Ukrainians, Jews born in Ukraine are not. How many of these Christians felt Ukrainians. How many spoke Ukrainian? I don't know, but maybe a lot of them had Russian parents and spoke Russian at home. How can you know it?
You are assuming a person is Ukrainian because of their faith. I already gave you this example:
If a Jew wanted to hide his Jewish ancestry, came out saying he was a Christian to the society; then he would be "Ukrainian" to your standarts, because you would never know if he was "ethnic" Ukrainian or not.
Assume Clarice Lispector may have some "ethnic" Ukrainian ancestry (she probably does, because Jews have been in Europe for 1 thousand years and, surrely, all European Jews have some degree of "European" ancestry).
All European Jews have some degree of European ancestry because it is impossible to be in a region for 1 thousand years and not mix with the locals.
This make Ukrainian-Jews also Ukrainians, regardless of their passport, religion or ethnicity. Opinoso (talk) 18:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- So, according to you, some without Ukrainian citizenship or ethnicity is Ukrainian just because he lived or his grandparents lived in territory that is now Ukraine?
- Sorry, logically this is wrong and there is already a precedent that such people are not considered Ukrainians. Here are the examples again. DOn't forget the Jews on this list, who also are not categorized as Ukrainians.:
- Mikhail Bulgakov, Russian writer, born and spent his early years in Kiev, today's capital
- Isaac Babel, famous Jewish writer from Odessa
- Leon Trotsky, Revolutionary
- Golda Meir, Israeli prime minister, a Jew born in Kiev when it was part of Russia, today's Ukrainian capital
- Joseph Conrad, Polish writer born in a Polish estate in Ukraine
- Keni Liptzin, famous actress of Yiddish theater, born in Zhytomir, Ukraine
- Sviatoslav Richter, famous Soviet piantist, half-German, half-Russian. Born in Zhytomir and grew up in Odessa, Ukraine.
- I think the problem here is that you don't know much about Ukrainians, Jews, eastern European history or Eastern European culture. For this reason you confuse ethnicity, nationality and religion. Judaims is both a religion and ethnicity. There are Jews in Ukraine who are not Ukrainians even though they are Christians, and they will never say that they are Ukrainians but are proud of being ethnic Jews. But those people can at least be considered Ukrainian by citizenship. Your examples are not - their ancestors left Ukraine before Ukraine even existed.
- We do not care what people think or believe. I don't care if 200 years ago a Jew born in Ukraine was not treated as Ukrainian or did not see himself as a Ukrainians.
- Well, that's too bad that you do not base your edits on objective reality but on your personal ideology and feelings.Faustian (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
We are in the 21st century. Nowadays, we see a person with ancestors born in Ukraine as Ukrainian. If Jews did not consider themselves and Ukrainians 200 years ago, it is because there was a strong racism in Europe; Christians tried as much as possible to marginalise the Jewish community, to the point that they had to create a "separete" identity for over 1 thousand years.
- Please learn about history before trying to teach it. Jews did not consider themselves Ukrainin 200 or 100 years ago because they were not Ukrainian. I think that Jews knew more about themselves than you know about them, right?Faustian (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Right, WE DO. As a Jew/Brazilian/Italian, I can tell you that you are full of it. You are acting like a troll, really. We have a fine article about Ukrainian Brazilians and you just came in here like messing about other people's work with loads of rethoric and demagogy. You should learn a little bit more about history, particularly about jewish history before throwing up some of the absurdities you wrote in here (which I took insult from, hence being upset about it). You sound more like a revisionist racist, really. If that wasn't your intention then you better re-think your approach. You are a minority here. --Pinnecco (talk) 21:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I wrote about 95% of the article. Check the history. Then someone decided to mess it up by adding non-Ukrainians to it. I don't thionk it was deliberately trollish; I suspect it was merely ignorance. It is unfortunate that you don't know much about the history of Jews in Ukraine. Try Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Pres, pp. 277-278 "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common." The article is about Ukrainians of Brazil. Lispector and others placed in this article by a poorly informed editor were as Ukrainian as Rudyard Kipling (English author born in India) was an Indian, or Albert Camus (born in Algeria) was an Arab. I recall sometime you actually doubted that Jewish was a nationality on Soviet passports, based on your Israeli/Ukrainian girlfriend's story. Read this, then: [3]. As was written further on thsi talk page, please show proof that someone is Ukrainian - not just born in Ukraine - before making changes. Everything I wrote in thi article was sources as wikipedia policy requires. Do the same, please.Faustian (talk) 03:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. We are in the 21st century and this is no longer acceptable. Nowadays, a Jew born and raised in Ukraine will see himself as Ukraine because, as far as I know, this separete feeling does not exist anymore. The same way American Jews see themselves as Americans. We don't care if 200 years ago they did not see themselves as Americans.
I don't need to know about the History of the Jews in Eastern Europe to notice that you have a 200 years ago conseption.
- Apparently you do not feel that you have to know about a topic before making edits on it. That is unfortunate.Faustian (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
According to your conseption, only people with Slavic blood could be considered Ukrainian; even though they Spoke Russian or Polish at home and hated Ukraine. Assuming that all European Jews have some degree of European admixture, and that all Ukrainian Jews had some degree of Slavic blood, according to your conseption of Slavic blood=Ukrainian, this make Jews from Ukraine, Ukrainians as well, because they do have different degrees of Slavic admixture.
I just can't believe that, in the 21st century, a person still tries to separete people from each other only because of the ethnicity or religion.
But, as I said, Jews from Ukraine do have Slavic blood, so they are Ukrainians as well, you like it or not. Speaking Ukrainian or not, Christians or not, they are Ukrainians by blood, not only by birth. Opinoso (talk) 19:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- All Ukrainians have some Jewish blood too then, and some Russian and Polish. Does that mean that every Ukrainian should be labelled as Russian, Polish and Jewish also? Your arguments are silly, sorry.Faustian (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- If Clarice Lispector was not Ukrainian because she was a Jew born in a region that only decades later became Ukraine, George Washington, the first president of the Unites States, was not an American as well, because he was also born in a place that only decades later became the United States. He also was not American because, before independence, people there did not see themselves as Americans, but as "Georgians", "Virginians", "New Yorkers", etc. According to you, George Washington was not American.
According to you, the United States had a non-American president. Opinoso (talk) 19:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, now you've gone from making things up about Jewish immigrants to Brazil to making things up about me. Where to begin with your comments? You obviously know very little about the people we are discussing, about Ukrainians, about Jews, and about history. More troubling, you refuse to learn anything. You state: "I just can't believe that, in the 21st century, a person still tries to separete people from each other only because of the ethnicity or religion." Sorry, I never seperated people by religion. Because you don't know much about Jews, you wrongly believe that Jews is simply a religious category. With respect to nationality, yes, nationalities exist. That's why we talk about them on wikipedia. So don't pretend that they do not in the 21st century. So how do we decide who is categorized where? Here is a definition of nation in the English language: [4]
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
- So to be a Ukrainian according to the English language means one must meet one of the above criteria. The Jewish emigrants from the Russian empire you try to portray as Ukrainians meet none of them: they did not perceive themselves as unified with the Ukrainians (they spoke a different language, generally did not intermarry because they lived in their own communities, etc.); they did not belong to the same ethnicity.
- But again, don't take my word for it. Here are just a few examples of Jews born in Ukraine who are NOT called Ukrainian according to the wikipedia article:
- So, either you know more about nations than the authors of hundreds of wikipedia articles about people living in other nations or you are wrong.Faustian (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please, do not confuse the conseption of "nation" with nationality.
Many Chinese Americans do not feel American, but Chinese. Some of them only speak Chinese and are treated as Chinese because of their physical apparence. So what? They were born in America, raised in America and are American citizens.
We don't care if a Chinese American does not feel American or is not treated as American. We don't care if he makes part of a Chinese "nation".
He was born in America, so he is an American, regardless of his Chinese roots, what language he speaks or what the society considers him to.
He is an American. The same way Brazilian Jews with roots in Ukraine MUST stay in an article about Ukrainian-Brazilians.
This is the reality. If you do not agree, I am sorry. If Clarice Lispector is not Ukrainian, George Washington is not American. Opinoso (talk) 23:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Nobody was an Ukrainiuan citizen at that time, because there was no Ukraine, it was part of the Russian Empire.
So, let's change this article's name to "Russians in Brazil". Because nobody had Ukrainian nationality at that time. All people born in nowadays Ukraine had were Russian citizens, including all Jews and Christians.
Let's change this article's name.
There's no such a thing as "Jewish country". The Jews were a nation, not a country.
The only Jewish country in the world is Israel, created 40 years ago.
So, if Jews born in Ukraine are not Ukrainians because they were no Ukrainian citizens, so nobody born in Ukraine until the I World War was Ukrainian, they were part of Russia.
So there was no Ukrainian immigration to Brazil, but Russian immigration.
So you are assuming that George Washington became American when he woke up and had a paper saying he was an America citizen? When he was born he was not an American, but one day, at age 30 he became an American?
Why are you saying only Slavic Ukrainians can be Ukrainians? Why Jews can't.
You say Jews can't be Ukrainians because:
- 1) They did not feel Ukrainian and were not treated as Ukrainians:
Reality: Many Chinese Americans do not feel Ukrainians and are not treated as Americans, but are American citizens.
- 2) Jews in Ukraine were not Ukrainian citizens
Reality: Nobody at that time were Ukrainian citizens, since Ukraine was under Russian rule. Everybody was Russian citizens, including Christians.
So, you have no arguments to say Jews were not Ukrainians. Nobody in Ukraine were Ukrainians citizens until World War I.
And the fact that Jews were not treated as Ukrainians is totally irrelevant.
You arguements are weak and pathetic. Opinoso (talk) 01:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- People are considered Ukrainian for one of two reasons: either they are ethnic Ukrainians or they are Ukrainian citizens. The people we are discussing were neither. Chinese Americnas are American because they are American citizens. Understand? Prior to World War I there were no Ukrainian citizens, but there were ethnic Ukrainians. Understand? The Jews you were speaking about are neither ethnic Ukrainians nor Ukrainian citizens. So they are not Ukrainians. They certainly did not consoider themselves such.Faustian (talk) 01:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is YOUR opinion. In my opinion and in most people's a person born in Ukraine, or a group of people (such as Jews) who have been in Ukraine for 1 thousand years ARE Ukrainians.
If you have a 200 years old view, this is you own business. But, we are not obligated to accept you segregationist opinion.
There's no such a thing as "Ukrainian" ethnic group.
"Ethnic groups and races do not exist. Race and ethnic groups are state designations to easier control the human populations (Michel Foucault)".
There's no such a thing as "I belong to this ethnic group, and I am different from the rest". Jews were treated differently because of the prejudice against Jews in Europa. That's all. They were not biologically different from the Slavs, because all humans are genetically similar.
So, your argument that Jews cannot be Ukrainians because they are not "Slavs" is pathetic and old.
Their ethnicity will not say if they are Ukrainians or not. Neither what was writen in the passport. They have been in Ukraine for over 1 thousand years. They are as Ukrainian as their "Slav" neighbors. Opinoso (talk) 01:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- This not not 200 year old view - you just say it is. It is the view of wikipedia, based on the preceent of articles written about hundreds of people which use the logic that I am trying to show to you. So it is a 21st century view. Your view in contrast is just Opinosos view. Now you are saying that there is no such thing as an ethnic group. That's an interesting concept from the 1960's. Unfortunately for you there are hundreds of artlces about ethnic groups. Should we erase them all?
- And now you are saying that there aren't genetic differences between peoples?
- There are no genetic differences between humans. Didn't you know that? What a shame.
The same way "race" does not exist, but we keeping using this term, ethinic group does not exist as well.
Does God exist? Existing or not, He has an article in wikipedia. The same way ethnic groups do have.
You have weak arguments.
Since there is no genetic differences between humans, you cannot say Jews cannot be Ukrainians because they do not have "Slavic" blood. Odd conseption.
You cannot say they were not Ukrainians because they did not view themselves as Ukrainians, because many Chinese Americans do not see themselves as Americans and are Americans as well.
You cannot say they were not Ukrainians because they were not Ukrainians citizens, because at that time everody born in that region was Russian citizen.
So, you have NO arguments to explain why only Slavs can be Ukrainians and Jews can't.
The same way you cannot explain why only Native Indians can be Americans or Brazilians. You also cannot explain why White South-Africans cannot be South-africans.
Grow. Opinoso (talk) 01:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why don't you reread what I wrote. I quoted the wikipedia page on UKrainians that staed that they can be Ukrainians either by ethnicity or by citizenship. Do you know what the words either and or mean? So the Chinese-Americans are Americans by citizenship, and the Ukrainians in the Russian empire were Ukrainians by ethnicity. All arguments are explained quite easily. (of course Native Indians can be Americans or Brazilians by ethnicity, and white SOuth Africans South Africans by citizenship).Faustian (talk) 01:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- "and the Ukrainians in the Russian empire were Ukrainians by ethnicity".
This is YOU 200 years ago opinion. 21st century opinion is the opposite. Since race or ethnic groups do not exist, everyone born in nowadays Ukraine were Ukrainians, regardless of their skin color, religion or other irrelevant informations.
I live in the 21st, new conseptions, humans are all the same. I am far away from you ridiculous 200 year ago view.
If you come with a resouce saying: "Ukrainians are only people with Slavic ancestry. Those with Jewish ancestry are not Ukrainians", I will not accept it, because all Jews in Ukraine have some degree of Slavic admixture, the same way many "Slavic" Ukrainians must have some degree of Jewish admixture.
GROW. Opinoso (talk) 02:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Your claims that race and ethnic groups do not exist is a fringe belief. In the 21st century we are recognizing more and more about the importance of genetic differences (for example, in medical treatment). Having said that, ethnicity is about more than just genetics, it's about culture. And sorry, Russians, Poles, Germans and Jews in Ukraine were not Ukrainians culturally.Faustian (talk) 02:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- You are a victim of state control.
I recommend that you read Foucault. He will teach you that ethnic groups, race and culture are creations of a small group of persons to separate human beings.
Human beings split into small groups are manipulated with ease.
Therefore, your concept to say that Ukrainians are only those who followed a Ukrainian culture (which would be a Ukrainian culture?) and are descendants of Slavs (which would be the Slavs?) is decadent.
The Jews were marginalized in Europe by interests of the Church. There are no ethnic groups. There are no "human comunities". You cannot measure a person's identity by race or religion. You cannot say a Jew is less Ukrainian than a Slavic because of his religion or ethnicity.
This is total racism.
There's no "Ukrainian culture", much less ethnic Ukrainian. Only people little studied can believe in these arbitrary divisions of human beings.
Read Michel Foucault before writing your pathetic point of view here. Opinoso (talk) 02:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Solution? edit
Since the article is about the ethnic Ukrainians in Brazil anyways, would it make sense to just say so in the beginning, and redirect readers interested in Jews from Ukraine to the Brazilian Jews article? It could read something like This article is about the ethnic Ukrainian immigrants to Brazil. For information about Jews from UKraine who settled in Brazil please see the History of the Jews in Brazil article. Jews fleeing pogroms are mentioned there already. Faustian (talk) 22:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- This article is not about ethnic Ukrainians in Brazil. It is about Ukrainians in Brazil. It is about people who immigrated from Ukraine to Brazil, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion or what was writen in their passports.
If Clarice Lispector, born in Ukraine to Ukrainian parents cannot be Ukrainian because she had Jewish roots, did not speak Ukrainian or did not feel Ukrainian, George Washington was the first non-American president of America, because he had Britsh roots, did not speak a North-American language and probably felt more "Virginian" than "American".
Stop trying to separate Christians from Jews. This is pathetic. Opinoso (talk) 23:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, Lispector was not born to Ukrainian parents. she was born to Jewish parents who were Russian citizens. George Washington was an American citizens. Lispecter was never a Ukrainian citizen. Your analogy is false. Wikipedia article about Ukrainians states: "Ukrainians (Ukrainian: Українці, Ukrayintsi) are an East Slavic ethnic group primarily living in Ukraine, or more broadly—citizens of Ukraine (who may or may not be ethnic Ukrainians)." Lispecter meets none of those criteria. Neither belonging to the East Slavic ethnic group, nor being a citizen of Ukraine (who may or may not be ethnic Ukrainian). She is just like all of these other non-Ukrainians and children of non-Ukrainians who lived in Ukraine:
- Mikhail Bulgakov, Russian writer, born and spent his early years in Kiev, today's capital
- Isaac Babel, famous Jewish writer from Odessa
- Leon Trotsky, Revolutionary
- Golda Meir, Israeli prime minister, a Jew born in Kiev when it was part of Russia, today's Ukrainian capital
- Joseph Conrad, Polish writer born in a Polish estate in Ukraine
- Keni Liptzin, famous actress of Yiddish theater, born in Zhytomir, Ukraine
- Sviatoslav Richter, famous Soviet piantist, half-German, half-Russian. Born in Zhytomir and grew up in Odessa, Ukraine.Faustian (talk) 01:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- All people born in Ukraine in the 1800s were Russian citizens. So nobody is Ukrainian.
Lispector is Ukrainian. Her parents were born in Ukraine and were Russian citizens. The same way Slavic Ukrainians were Russian citizens. Opinoso (talk) 01:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Except that the Slavic Ukrainians were ethnic Ukrainians while Lispecter's people were ethnic Jews. You seem to have some trouble understanding this. Read the article about Ukrainians, it states that Ukrainians are either ethnic Ukrainians or people of any ethnicity who are citizens of Ukraine. Lispecter meets none of those two conditions, so she is not Ukrainian. Same thing with all of those people on the list above. Understand?Faustian (talk) 01:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- There is NO Ukrainian ethnic group. That's invention of states to persuade people, slice them into small groups and dominate them with ease.
Ukrainians are a mixture of peoples. There is nothing homogeneous in Ukraine or in any other country in Europe.
Europeans are a mixture of peoples. Ethnic groups do not exist.
Jews and Slavs are genetically identical. All humans are.
So the concept that only "Slavs" are Ukrainians is ridiculous. Jews are also Ukrainians, and lived there for a thousand years.
Clarice is a human born in current Ukrainian territory. That makes her Ukrainian, regardless of her skin color or which religion she followed.
Grow, we are in the 21 st century. Opinoso (talk) 01:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- We should base evidence based on scientific ignorance. Ethnic groups do exist. Humans are not all genetically identical (except for monozygotic twins). Here is an article about Jewish genetics: [5]
- Are you serious? Humans and primates are 99% equal [6]
- "Today most scholars have abandoned these views and see race as a social construct with no biological basis. Breakthroughs in genetics and the mapping of the human genome in the late twentieth century have helped dispel many of the earlier myths about race. At least 99.9% of any one person's DNA is exactly the same as any other person's, regardless of ethnicity.[3] Of the 0.1% variation, there is an 8% variation between ethnic groups within a race, such as between the French and the Dutch. On average, only 7% of all human genetic variation lies between major human races such as those of Africa, Asia, Europe, and Oceania. 85% of all genetic variation lies within any local group. The proportion of genetic variation within continental groups (~93%) is therefore far greater than that between the various continental groups (~7%).[4] Or to put it another way, "any two individuals within a particular population are about as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world"[7]
Human genetic difference is really, really small, like 0.0001%. So, Jews and Slavs are the same.
What a shame you still believe in human races. You are living in a 200 year ago period. Opinoso (talk) 01:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Genetic differences do exist, as you admit (you claim .0001% which is false). Ethnicity is of course not only genetic - I never claimed it was only genetic - but also (and more importantly) cultural. The people we are discussing were not culturally nor genetically Ukrainian of course.Faustian (talk) 02:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Genetic differences are minimal, almost non-existing.
All humans are descended from a small group of people who came from African and have spread around the world. All humans have the same ancestry.
So, if you are claiming Jews are not Ukrainians because of their religion and roots, you are living in the 1700s. Opinoso (talk) 02:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- 100 thousand years ago we were all living in Africa. The same humans who went to Ukraine, went to nowadays Palestine. The same humans who became the "Slavs" of Ukraine became the "Jews" from Palestine. All humans have the same ancestry and physicall differences came with small genetical mutations along the centuries. This difference make up a mere 0.1%. This is nothing.
You cannot measure how Ukrainian a person was basing in his "ethnic group".
GROW. Opinoso (talk) 02:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ethnicity is not purely genetic, it is a pure invention of the State, to make people believe they belong to an ethnicity, to a race, to a religion or to a community.
You believe Ukrainian is an ethnic group. You believe all Ukrainians share the same traditions. You believe it because you have a 200 years ago conseption.
You should read more. Do not believe in everything you hear. Have a little more of critical sense. Opinoso (talk) 02:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Jews can be Ukrainians as well; stop edit war. edit
According to Faustian, only Christians with "Slav" roots can be Ukrainians. Jews living in nowadays Ukraine for 1 thousand years are not Ukrainians.
Faustian argues that Jews are not Ukrainians because they do not have "Ukrainian culture" and did not see themselves as Ukrainians.
However, according to the famous and renowned French philosopher Michel Foucault, there are NO ethnic groups, races, human communities.
According to the philosopher, these divisions are made by the State. He argues that the state controls human beings divided into small groups more easily that all human together.
Then, according to the famous Foucault, there are NO ethnic Ukrainians and Ukrainian culture. They are only human inventions, human imagination to separate people into small groups.
Because there are no divided cultures, much less ethnic groups, it cannot be argued that only the people of Ukrainian culture, or Slavic descent are Ukrainians.
We are divided: on one side the user Faustian says that there is "ethnic Ukrainians" and only these can be Ukrainians.
- Not true.. I followed the standard practice of considering Ukrainians being either ethnic Ukrainians or citizens of Ukraine. Thus, non-Ukrainians are neither ethnic Ukrainians nor citizens of Ukraine.Faustian (talk) 03:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In addition, the renowned French philosopher Michael Foucault says that there are no ethnic groups or communities; this is part of the human imagination, manipulated by the state.
- See above. Basing wikipedia of Foucault's ideas is bizarre, sorry.Faustian (talk) 03:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
On who should we believe? Believe in user Faustian or in the famous French philosopher Foucault?
- LOL. The problem is that user Faustian bases his edits on science and precedent.Faustian (talk) 03:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe in Foucault.
And more: according to genetic researches, there are no human races: all people are descendants of a small group of people from Africa. Jews and Slavs, then, have the same ancestry.
Thus, based on the ideas of Foucault and in genetic researches, we CAN say with certainty that Jews born in Ukraine are Ukrainians.
Saying that only the Slavs have the right to be Ukrainians is an old racist idea.
Thus, the Brazilian Jews of Ukrainian origin MUST have their names listed in this article.
I ask Faustian, to stop creating an edit war. You use common sense to argue. Common sense, in most cases, is wrong. Genetically humans are the same, so there's no such a thing as only people of "Slavic" ethnicity can be Ukrainians. It is all part of human imagination, according to Foucault.
So stop the edit war and stop using common sense as an argument. Opinoso (talk) 02:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Stop using Foucault as an authority on Ukrainians and Jews. Stop edit warring please. you are the one who started the edit warring and who continued it after the pause.Faustian (talk) 03:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why are you angry? I used the arguments of famous and renowned French philosopher Michel Foucault.
You are using your own opinion.
I am not using my own opinion. I am using Foucault's arguements.
You started edit war in this articles. You erased the names of Brazilian Jews of Ukrainian descent. I am only including their names back.
It seems you have NO serious arguements against Foucault's. You are writing your opinion for who is a Ukrainian or who is not. You cannot use personal opinion in Wikipedia.
Then, stop discussion and stop edit war. Opinoso (talk) 03:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- You cannot use Foucault's opinion either. Foucault is a controversial philospher. His claims are just his opinons. They don't matter. I do not write my opinion who is Ukrainian or not. I use the definition of who is Ukrainian:
"Ukrainians (Ukrainian: Українці, Ukrayintsi) are an East Slavic ethnic group primarily living in Ukraine, or more broadly—citizens of Ukraine (who may or may not be ethnic Ukrainians)."
I use the precendent of many wikipedia articles written about non-Ukrainians from Ukraine, such as:
- Mikhail Bulgakov, Russian writer, born and spent his early years in Kiev, today's capital
- Isaac Babel, famous Jewish writer from Odessa
- Leon Trotsky, Revolutionary
- Golda Meir, Israeli prime minister, a Jew born in Kiev when it was part of Russia, today's Ukrainian capital
- Joseph Conrad, Polish writer born in a Polish estate in Ukraine
- Keni Liptzin, famous actress of Yiddish theater, born in Zhytomir, Ukraine
- Sviatoslav Richter, famous Soviet piantist, half-German, half-Russian. Born in Zhytomir and grew up in Odessa, Ukraine.
I also use the definition of nation in the English language[8]:
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
So to be a Ukrainian according to the English language means one must meet one of the above criteria. The Jewish emigrants from the Russian empire you try to portray as Ukrainians meet none of them: they did not perceive themselves as unified with the Ukrainians (they spoke a different language, generally did not intermarry because they lived in their own communities, etc.); they did not belong to the same ethnicity.
So, in summary, you use the controversial opinions of a French philospher (wjo also claims that ethnicity does not exist), I use common usage, the defintion of the word in the language, and the precedent of many wikipedia articles.Faustian (talk) 03:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Stop vandalism in this article. Exactly, you use "common usage". This is almost always wrong.
I use the arguments of scholars. You use you own opinion.
Stop erasing the names of people in the article before asking other user's opinion and without giving any source or serious arguments for doing that.
Erasing informations and creating edit wars are vandalism. Opinoso (talk) 03:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Foucault is not authority on UKrainians nor Jews; nor is he an ethnogropher. He is a philosopher. His opinions are irrelevent here. First you call me a Nazi, and now a vandal. Progress? And deleting inapropriate information or innacuracy is not vandalism.Faustian (talk) 03:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Are you an authority on Ukrainians or Jews? Surely not.
You gave your own opinion about who is an Ukrainian and who is not. This is wrong, because Wikipedia is not a place for personal opinions.
You are trying to excluding Jews from being Ukrainians and did not give us serious arguments to do this.
You are assuming only people with Christian faith and Slavic ancestry are able to be Ukrainians. You did not give us arguments to affirm this.
All you do is giving your own opinion. You already addmited to be using "common usage".
Where do you think you are? In a forum where people leave their personal opinions?
NO, this is an encyclopedia. This is not the place to use "common usage".
If you don't see people living in Ukraine for 1 thousand years as "Ukrainians" only because they are Jews, than you really have an odd conseption, and it makes me sad, because we are in the 21st century, and these conseptions of "blood" and heritage remindes me Nazi.
I don't believe in your personal opinion. I believe in Foucault. He was not an authority in Ukrainians and Jews, the same way you are not.
But Foucault was a scholar, a famous scholar, who wrote renowned works on the human mind. In contrast to you, who never wrote anything.
So, stop creating edit wars, because none of your arguments are valid. You are addmite to be using "common usage". Nobody can take you seriously.
This is an encyclopedia. It is not a forum for opinions.
Careful, your vandalism here can generate a lock of your account on Wikipedia. Opinoso (talk) 03:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Foucault is not an anthropologist so citing him in this context as as appropriate as citing Marx or Kant or Socrates, all of whom are also famous scholars. Your opinion that the arguments I present are not valid is just that - your opinion. The opinion of someone who claimed that ethnicity does not exist, that people he disagress with are Nazis, and that someone who died in 1970's had a "Ukrainian passport." Sorry.Faustian (talk) 03:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- If Foucault was not serious, today students of law around the world would not be reading his books.
Again, you are sending your personal opinion when trying to denigrate the work of Foucault.
Rather than give your useless opinion, bring sources saying why Jews born in Ukraine cannot be treated as Ukrainians.
If you do not bring the sources and continues with this edit war, I will ask aministradores to block you from wikipedia.
Foucault was a psychologist who knew the human mind. He understood that concepta as race, ethnicity and communities are made to manipulate the minds of people.
I don't care if you agree with him. It is a source to conffirm that Jews can be Ukrainians as well.
What about your sources? I can't see any. Oh, you use "common usage". Very intelligent person you are. While I use master Foucault as arguments, you use common usage.
This is hilarious. Opinoso (talk) 04:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- You can use the genius Einstein or Socrates also, they are not anthropolgists or ethnogrpahers so interpreting their opinions is irrelevent here. Foucault does not confirm that Jews are Ukrainians. You are interpreting him to try to confirm your personal idea. And Foucault was not a psychologist, either. As I have shown you, according to the English language [9] nation is:
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
- You have chosen to add people in to the Ukrainian category that do not, by definition, belong to the Ukrainian nation. You provided no source when you did so. So, you added an inaccuracy. And when I tried to discuss it with you, you called me a racist and a Nazi. And then rather than cite a source showing that these people were Ukrainians, you began reciting the ideas of a French philosopher. Sorry, but a non-ethnic Ukrainian who never was a Ukrainian citizen and never considered himself a Ukrainian is not a Ukrainian based on your opinion or your reading of Foucault. And sorry that in your own words, you do not like common sense.Faustian (talk) 04:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- You are, again, giving your opinion. Did you talk to Clarice Lispector to know if she consider herself or not Ukrainian? Did you talk to Brazilian Jews of Ukrainian descent to know if they see themselves as descendants of Ukrainians?
NO, you didn't ask anynone their opinions. You are trying to obligate us to accept you segregationist conception.
I am Brazilian. In Brazil, Clarice Lispector is treated as a Brazilian of Ukrainian and Jewish roots. You like it ot not, Lispector was proud of her Ukrainian roots.
You know nothing about Brazil and is trying to exclude Jews from the list of Ukrainian Brazilians.
By the way, I NEVER put a name in the list. I don't care about Ukrainians, it was another user who included those Brazilian Jews in the list.
YOU erased the names included by another user giving YOUR personal opinion, or "common usage" as you said, as arguments.
You never came with a source saying "Clarice Lispector and her ancestors never considered themselves to be Ukrainians".
YOU are assuming from your mind they did not see themselves as Ukrainians.
You are assuming they didn't. You are giving you opinion.
In Brazil, my country, Lispector and the other Jews as famous journalist Bóris Casoy are known as Brazilians with both Ukrainian and Jewish ancestry, you like it or not.
So, stop erasing their names. This article is about Ukrainians in Brazil, so we must use the Brazilian conseption and how Brazilians see themselves, not as people from Ukraine see themselves.
This article has nothing to do with racist and segregationist conseptions in Europe or in other places of the world. It has the Brazilian conseption.
You know NOTHING about Brazil and how Brazilians see themselves, and MUST be quiet and stop this stupid edit war. Opinoso (talk) 04:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- In Brazil a Brazilian with ancestors who came from Ukraine is treated as a Ukrainian-descendant (descendentes de ucranianos, in Portuguese).
In Brazil, Jews of Ukrainian descent are descendants of Ukrainians. This article is about Ukrainians in Brazil and their descendants. So, we are using the Brazilian conseption of that who is a Ukrainian. We don't care about "common usage" in other countries. This article is Brazilian, not Ukrainian. Opinoso (talk) 04:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is an article on English wikipedia so we use English definitions of words. Please provide sources on each person you claim to be Ukrainian that state that the person is a Ukrainian person.Faustian (talk) 04:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Another attempt at a solution edit
How about if, for each person you want to place in the list of Brazilian-Ukrainians, a source is provided stating that this person is "Ukrainian." There will be no arguments there. But being from Odessa does not equal being Ukrainian. That would be an intepretation and wikipedia policy is clear about no original research.
So, let's not argue about how to define Ukrainian or not. Find a source claiming that a person is a Ukrainian person and then if you find such a source, put that person's name into the article as a Ukrainian person. There is a good reason why wikipedia policy forbids original research and this argument is an excellent illustration of that. I promise that if you find a source stating that a person is a Ukrainian person (not "from Ukraine" but a Ukrainian), I will not remove that person from the list.Faustian (talk) 04:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- We are not using the English conseption in this article because it has nothing to do with England; it is about people in Brazil.
In Brazil, if you have ancestors who came from Ukraine, then you are descendant of Ukrainians, regardless of you race, religion or other useless informations.
Lispector was born in Ukraine, then she was naturalized Brazilian. This makes her a Brazilian descendant of Ukrainians of Jewish faith.
This is the Brazilian conseption, and this is the one we are using here.
All those Brazilian Jews in the list have ancestors who came from Ukraine, which make them automatically "descendants of Ukrainians" of Brazil, regardless of their religious ancestry.
So, you cannot erase their names, since it is an article about Brazil, so we must use the Brazilian conseption. Opinoso (talk) 04:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- What you have written above is your opinion. My opinion is different. Let's avoid opinions and base our edits on sources, which ultimately are what wikipedia articles should be based on. Please find a source stating that these people are Ukrainians. Let's stick to what sources say, rather than to either your or mine personal opinions. Since you placed those people on the list, the burdon of proof is on you to show that they are Ukrainians. You show this not through your arguments or personal opinions, or by referring to Foucault's theories, but simply through a reference, a source, that states that they are Ukrainians. So, for example, for Boris Casoy (one of the people you placed on the list of Ukrainian Brazilians), find some source claiming that he is a Ukrainian person. As I said, as soon as you find one, I will leave it alone. Everything else is interpretation and as we have seen here, there is a good reason why wikipedia policy forbids original research. Faustian (talk) 04:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- I like the fact that you have added sources, although some of them do not say that the people are Ukrainian. Indeed, they confirm they are not. The source about the Bloch family doesn't say they are from a Ukrainian family. It says they are from a Jewish family from Ukraine. But clarification is better than no clarification. I will think about what to do.Faustian (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the sources and what they say, it is apparent that a few of them are not Ukrainian. Pedro Bloch for example - his original name, Pietr, is a Russian one instead of the Ukrainian Petro because Jews in the Russian Empire tended to identify themselves as Russians is referred to as a Jew from Ukraine, not as a Ukrainian. He could be classified as a Russian Brazilian or Jewish Brazilian. The Lispectors are also everywhere identified as Jews, not as Ukrainians. As another editor noted:
- If I may wade into a discussion that I fear has become far too heated, there is nothing racist about this. But the idea that Lispector is Ukrainian is so widespread in Brazil that I understand that Brazilians will find it odd to see her described any other way. Just because this is a widespread belief, however, does not make it true in any scientific sense. The fact is no Jews who immigrated to Brazil from what is now the Ukrainian Republic ever thought of themselves as Ukrainian. They were Jews first, and Russian Jews second. Never were they Ukrainians, which, as Faustian writes, is a term that can only be applied to citizens of the Ukrainian Republic or persons of ethnic Ukrainian heritage. The fact is that at that time saying you were "Ukrainian" in Brazil, when the Ukraine was not a defined political entity and very few people would even have heard of it, would have been as absurd as a Chinese-American today saying that they were Yunnanese, or Szechuan, rather than Chinese. Even more so, for the Jews themselves, this would have been utterly fantastic. There were very large differences between Ukrainians and Jews, just as there were between Ukrainians and Tatars and Kazahs and Armenians and any other of the constituent minorities of the Russian Empire. In the case of Lispector (whose bibliography I am very well acquainted with), there is not a single description of herself in any of the vast literature surrounding her in which she describes herself as a Ukrainian. Not surprising, moreover, given what her family suffered at the hands of the Ukrainian nationalist movement. She was a Jewish citizen of the Russian Empire at birth and remained so until she was naturalized as Brazilian when she came of age. For the Brazilians out there, I would refer you to Nádia Gotlib's new "Clarice Fotobiografia" which reproduces two different Russian passports with which her family travelled to Brazil. Eve.b.i (talk) 14:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Anyways, so far there is no source stating that the Lispectors or that Pedro Bloch are Ukrainians. In the interests of avoiding an edit war, I will not remove those names but will wait a few days to see if a source can be found. If not, I'll have to remove them from the list.Faustian (talk) 18:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I am not the owner, merely the creator, of this article, and as such have no special rights as per wikipedia policy. That being said, wikipedia policy is quite clear with respect to information included in edits. You can consult it at this page. "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." That is official wikipedia policy.
- I am merely asking you to follow Wikipedia policy. You included various names under the heading "Ukrainian Brazilians". In order for that information to belong in that heading you need to provide a reference to a "reliable, published source" stating that the individual is a Ukrainian. You found sources for a few of those names, but for others you did not. So, I am kindly asking you to provide a source so that the page follows wikipedia policy. I have not included any information on that page that did not have a source. You should do the same. So, I will give you a few days and if this page continues to violate wikipedia policy I will change it and inform relevant administrators if you make reversions in order to violate wikipedia policy. If you find the reliable sources, then I will have no problem with the information being there; indeed I will welcome its inclusion. Thank you.Faustian (talk) 03:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- You are violating wikipedia policy, since you adimited to be using "common usage" to say who is Ukrainian and who is not.
Anyway, I am not wasting my time with a person who uses "common usage" in an encyclopedia. But I will be around, so, do not try to put your segregationist ideas again. I am with my eyes opened.
Bye. Opinoso (talk) 04:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am not basing my edits on common usage. I quite clearly ask that you follow wikipedia policy. If in your edit you describe someone as Ukrainian, include the referenced source stating that the person was Ukrainian. I am avoiding all personal opinions or personal interpretations here - find the source to support the statement. As I said, in the interest of being decent and avoiding conflcit, I will give you some time to do so, but if after a few days you cannot than I will follow wikipedia policy and remove the unsourced statements. Thank you.Faustian (talk) 04:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Latest Edit edit
Per the discussion above, I have hidden the names of those alleged Ukrainian Brazilians until such a time when sources are actually found that describe these people as "Ukrainians". The names have not been removed yet, and can be unhidden easily. If no source is found within 3 weeks I will remove the names from the list. I appreciate other editors' cooperation in following wikipedia policy: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." Thank you.Faustian (talk) 14:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Article name will be changed. edit
- I will change the name of this article to "Russians of Brazil".
When these "Ukrainians" came to Brazil, they were Russian citizens NO Ukrainians were listed at all.
In the "Memorial do Imigrante" website, everybody from Eastern Europe under Russian rule was listed as "Russian". There are not Ukrainians there. [10]
Since there was no Ukraine at that time, but only Russia, I will change this article's name to "Russians of Brazil" and include the name of Clarice Lispector, who was a Russian citizen as the other future-Ukrainians who came to Brazil.
If no source is found within 1 week saying these people were Ukrainians, not Russians, I will change the name of the article from "Ukrainians" to "Russians". Opinoso (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am sorry that you have chosen to demonstrate your lack of knowledge of very basic eastern European history. If you read this article you will see that the vast majority of Ukrainians in Brazil emigrated from a country other than Russia. Moreover, there are multiple sources within the article stating that these people are indeed Ukrainians. Check the references:
- Oksana Boruszenko and Rev. Danyil Kozlinsky (1994). Ukrainians in Brazil (Chapter), in Ukraine and Ukrainians Throughout the World, edited by Ann Lencyk Pawliczko, University of Toronto Press: Toronto, pp. 443-454
- Subtelny, Orest. (1988). Ukraine: a History. University of Toronto Press: Toronto. pg. 566 ISBN 0-8020-5808-6
- Pacific Island Travel web-site, accessed 4.8.08, taken from: Brazil: the Rough Guide, by David Cleary, Dilwyn Jenkins, Oliver Marshall, Jim Hine. ISBN:1858282233
- With respect to your website, it is obvious that the "Russos" referred to were not Ukrainians but Russians (probably, Russian Jews from Russia or Ukraine) as the number of arrivals did not correspond to the Ukrainian arrivals (look at the numbers of Russians arriving in the years 1895-1897 in the chart, comparing it to the numbers of Ukrainians arriving of 20,000). Moreover, the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians who came to Brazil were not residents of the Russian empire. Really, you ought to learn some more before engaging in these silly arguments.
- It is too bad that rather than spend your time making articles better or contributing to knowledge (your own or others), you insist on wasting your and others' time by engaging in such games. I suggest that you make a separate article about Russians in Brazil and write about the Russian Jews that you tried to place in this article, who made incredible contributions to Brazilian and world culture and do indeed deserve their own article. Or you could spend your time learning more.Faustian (talk) 18:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- Show me sources that Ukrainians who came to Brazil were not Russian citizens.
Ff Ukraine was under Russian rule, they were Russian citizens, the same way you argue Lispector was.
I give you 1 week to bring me sources to say Ukrainians who came to Brazil were not Russian citizens. If you do not have any, I will have to change the article's name to "Russians of Brazil", since they were not Ukrainians, but Russians.Opinoso (talk) 20:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- Any basic understanding of Ukraine would tell you that they were not, because anyone with even a minimal understanding of Ukrainian history would know that not all of Ukraine was part of the Russian empire. And, as documented above, numerous sources tell us that those people were Ukrainian. Your opinion that they were not because they weren't Ukrainian citizens is just original research, just as was your opinion that everyone born on Ukrainian territory is Ukrainian. Wikipedia is based on sources, not personal opinions. It's too bad you waste your time making trouble rather than just learning. If you choose to vandalize this page you're just going to be reverted and blocked. I hope you don't go down that road.Faustian (talk) 21:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Changing the name would be a violation of WP:POINT and would be considered pretty disruptive. I suggest this action not be taken. This argument is actually quite silly. If these people are Ukrainians, then there should be sources that say they are. How hard can it be to find a few? I will even check myself. If not, then they should not be included. Ostap 04:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- These Ukrainians who came to Brazil were Russian citizens, Jews or not.
Article says there are 300,000 Ukrainian-Brazilians. How many of these were Ukrainians according to you, Faustian?
Probably many of these so-called 300,000 people are of Jewish origin, like Lispector.
According to you, a Jew cannot be Ukrainian. Why? Because they do not believe in Jesus Christ and do not have blond hair like Christian Ukrainians?
Because they do not follow a Ukrainian culture? Does this exist? What is a Ukrainian culture, besides speak Ukrainian?? Wear typical clothes in a local party?
Stop this.
Hum, this is strange...really strange. Opinoso (talk) 06:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Opinoso, the same way I disagree with removing jews from the article, I disagree with changing the article name to Russians instead of Ukrainians. Simply put, in Brazil there is a large Ukrainian community -- not Russian. Perhaps you're just trying to make a point? --Pinnecco (talk) 14:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Faustian, without good arguments, said Lispector is not Ukrainian because she was a Russian citizen. BUT, most of Ukraine was under Russian rule at that time; most "Ukrainians", including non-Jews, were RUSSIAN citizens, not Ukrainians.
It is obvious Faustian is trying to erase Lispector's name from this article because she was a JEW. The fact that she was a Russian citizen is irrelevant, because most people in Ukraine had Russian passports.
His other arguments is that Jews did not follow a "Ukrainian culture". I wonder if this exist. What makes a person follow a "Ukrainian culture"? Wear typical clothes? Dance some folk Ukrainian dance?
This is pathetic.
To Faustian, only people who believe in Jesus Christ or have blond hair can be Ukrainian. Jews cannot. Opinoso (talk) 19:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Opinoso, I did seen what Faustian wrote and I do agree with you that his arguments are questionable. They are subjective and anecdotal, not to say insulting. However I think it would be best if we call the remaining members of the Brazilian portal to end this once and for all. What do you say? --Pinnecco (talk) 21:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm only sticking to reliable sources and basing everything on that. There is nothing anecdotal or subjective about it. Either a source says something or it does not. Opinoso's repeated references to me as a Nazi or racist are disgusting and qualify as abuse. IMy relative died fighting the Nazis. Did yours ever? I didn't only remove Jews from the list, I also removed a Russian from the list - the only reason most of the people I removed from the list are Jews is because for whatever reason most of the non-Ukrainians that were placed on this list happened to have been Jews. Now, as I said, if you find a reliable-by-wikipedia standards source that states that someone is Ukrainian, put them on the list. Otherwise, they don't belong. I'm only asking you to follow the rules - I expect it of you because that is what I have done on this article. Everything I claimed on this article was sourced. Your information should also be sourced. Is that difficult? So, if you claim someone is Ukrainian, find the source stating that they are Ukrainian. And don't forget, per wikipedia policy blogs and forums don't count as sources. Good luck.Faustian (talk) 21:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- And just to clear something up. I did not sat Lispecter wasn't Ukrainian because she had a Russian passport. I said she wasn't Ukrainian because no source states that she was Ukrainian. The fact that she herself never considered herself Ukrainian, she never had a UKrainian passport, never spoke Ukrainian, never mixed with Ukrainians are also important. But, the bottom line, wikipedia operated through reliable sources and so far no reliable source states that she is Ukrainian.Faustian (talk) 21:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting. I have a friend (M) who's mom was from Hungary and her father from Czeckslovakia. She was born in Brazil but on the age of 13 she moved to the US. She is a American and Brazilian citizen. would it be fair to say that following your point of view she is not Hungarian? Because I often saw her speaking hungarian with her mom and she has recently obtained her Hungarian passport. Does it mean, in your view, that only after she got her Hungarian passport, at her early fifties, that she became Hungarian? But what about her birthplace? She was born in Rio and is fluent in portuguese, and both her daughter (D) and son (R) have Brazilian passports besides American passports, since they were born in the US (not sure if they have Hungarian passports). And what about her American citizenship? Her son (D) used to work for NASA as a law advisor (or something like that) and now it is my understanding he is working for another government agency. I mean, they are American, Hungarians or Brazilians after all? Could he work for such agencies if he wasn't an American? If I ask him (R) to provide me any proof that he is Brazilian, he would show me his Brazilian passport. If I ask his sister (D) to show me proof she is American, she would show me her birth certificate. If I asked their mom (M) to show me proof she is Hungarian, she would show me her passport and probably a fist in my face for being rude. Ah, and I almost forgot. M's parents were jew, and her mom (E) was a child survivor from a concentration camp. That means M is also a jew, but she doesn't practice her religion. So, in your view... What is M after all? Please thrill us with your views on multiple citizenships. --Pinnecco (talk) 12:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know about Hungarian Jews - perhaps they identified as Hungarians too. But the surces clearly tell us that Jews did not identify themselves as Ukrainians. Your friend's story seems irrelevent here, and moreover isn't the sort of info on which to base wikipedia edits on.Faustian (talk) 13:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
- Faustian still lives in the 18th century, and uses terms like "I am ethnic Ukrainian". You are not from Ukraine, are you? Where do you live? In Canada? Stop with this. Fit in Canada and forget this "ethnic Ukrainian".
If your parents did not tell you your ancestors came from Ukraine, you would hardly know where Ukraine is located in a world map.
Ethnic groups do not exist. This is a human fantasy. Read Foucault, I already told you to this so.
Who cares if lispector did not see herself as Ukrainians? Do you have a poll saying how many people born in Ukraine in the early 20th century felt Ukrainians?
I give you 1 week to bring me a source saying only Jews did not feel Ukrainians.
By the way, you still did not answer me:
You said Lipector is not Ukrainian because she did not "follow a Ukrainian culture". What is a Ukrainian culture, besides speak Ukrainian at home?
Is it wear typical clothes in a local party?
What is a Ukrainian culture?
I give you 1 week to report us why only people with a "Ukrainian culture" (?) can be Ukrainians.
You did not bring us sources to excluse Jews from the Ukrainian-Brazilian articles. So, stop erasing their names, because I brought sources to say they are Ukrainians.
21st view: ancestors from Ukraine= Ukrainian-descendant.
19th century Nazi view: only people with blond hair and who believe in Jesus are Ukrainians.
I prefer the 21st century view. Only you prefer the 19th century. You loose.
By the way, I am not accusing you of being a Nazi. You are assuming I am. However, your views are exactly the same as Nazi:
Only blond Catholic or Protestant Germans are Germans. Jews were not.
Why? Because they did not dance in a local party with typical Germanic clothes, getting drunk with beer in a Oktoberfest?
What is a German culture? What is a Ukrainian culture, so different from a Jewish? Aren't humans the same?
Faustian, wake up. This is 21st century, not 18th. Opinoso (talk) 01:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Some facts on ethnic identity edit
For people unfamiliar with ethnic identity issues but who have stumbled upon this conversation, here is some sourced infromation:
Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Pres, pp. 277-278 "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities [where Lispecter was from - Faustian] were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common."
From Paul Robert Magocsi [11] book Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Press: "Since Ukraine was home to many different peoples, it generated other Ukrainian diasporas, or more precisely, diasporas from Ukraine. Numerically the most important was that of the Jews....A few prominant Jews from Ukraine were able to maintain contact witht he culture of their geographic birthplace, which they invariably identify as "Russia".This has been particularly the case with musicians, such as Nathan Milstein...and the Vladimir Horowitz, the Kiev-trained piano virtuoso, who after six decades of living abroad was finally able to fulfill his dream during the late 1980's by returning home to perfrom in what he called my Russia. (pg. 431).
Encyclopedia Britannica classifies Jews in Ukraine as an ethnic group seperate from Ukrainians, just like Russians, Belarussians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, etc: [12] "The 1991 Soviet census also revealed Russians to be the largest minority, at 22 percent. The remaining minorities, in 1991 making up about 5 percent of the population, include Jews, Belarusians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, and Romanians."
So, not everyone from Ukraine was a Ukrainian and should be categorized as such in this article.Faustian (talk) 23:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- Stop excluding Jews from this article. Stop with this odd idea!
How many of those Russian citizens from nowadays Ukraine felt Ukrainians? Very few of them.
The country did not even exist.
How many of them spoke Ukrainian? Probably many didn't.
Stop saying only people with "Ukrainian" culture are Ukrainians. A unify Ukrainian culture does not exist. People from different regions have different life styles.
What is a Ukrainian culture? Wearing typical clothes in a Easter party?
Stop watching Hollywood movies, please. Opinoso (talk) 05:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Your arguments are meaningless - they are merely the opinions of someone with hardly any knowledge of Eastern Europe. Stick to sourced material, please, rather than discussion of Hollywood or the supposed age of ideas. If you find a source that meets wikipedia standards as a reliable source that states that someone is a Ukrainian, put it in. If not, it doesn't belong. All other comments are just a waste of time.Faustian (talk) 21:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- All the people have sources saying they are "Ukrainians", were "Born in Ukraine" or have ancestors from Ukraine.
A person born in Ukraine is Ukrainian by everybody 21st century view. If you still live in the 18th century, it is your own problem.
- No, this is your interpretation of what that means. A source ought to say, "this person is Ukrainian." If indeed the everybody 21st century view, as you put it, was that this person is UKrainian we would expect a source to say so. But for some reason you can't find one that does.Faustian (talk) 03:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
So, stop erasing their names, this is vandalism.
Born in Ukraine=Ukrainian. Bring me sources saying "only people who believe in Jesus and have blond hair are Ukrainians. Jews are not".
- That's your interpretation. Unfortunately many people born in Ukraine are not Ukrainian. An example: Mikhail Bulgakov. People born in India are not Indian, such as Rudyard Kipling. People born in ALgeria are not Algerians or Arabs, such as Albert Camus. And until you find sources saying that they are Ukrainian, the people you placed on this list are not Ukrainian.Faustian (talk) 03:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
You won't find this racist source. So, just give up and stop erasing informations with sources. This is vandalism. Opinoso (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Opinoso (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Mikhail Bulgakov had Russian parents. He has nothing to do with Lispector. Jews are present in Ukraine for over 1,000 years.
Stop using silly examples. Where are your sources to claim Jews from Ukraine are not Ukrainians?
If you don't have the sources, stop reverting. Stop vandalism. Opinoso (talk) 03:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Again, sources stating that Jews are a different wthnic group than Ukrainians:
Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Pres, pp. 277-278 "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities [where Lispecter was from - Faustian] were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common."
From Paul Robert Magocsi [13] book Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Press: "Since Ukraine was home to many different peoples, it generated other Ukrainian diasporas, or more precisely, diasporas from Ukraine. Numerically the most important was that of the Jews....A few prominant Jews from Ukraine were able to maintain contact witht he culture of their geographic birthplace, which they invariably identify as "Russia".This has been particularly the case with musicians, such as Nathan Milstein...and the Vladimir Horowitz, the Kiev-trained piano virtuoso, who after six decades of living abroad was finally able to fulfill his dream during the late 1980's by returning home to perfrom in what he called my Russia. (pg. 431).
Encyclopedia Britannica cites the census as classifying Jews in Ukraine as an ethnic group seperate from Ukrainians, just like Russians, Belarussians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, etc: [14] "The 1991 Soviet census also revealed Russians to be the largest minority, at 22 percent. The remaining minorities, in 1991 making up about 5 percent of the population, include Jews, Belarusians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, and Romanians."Faustian (talk) 03:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I would also add that whoever listed people on this article as Ukrainian must be the ones to provide the sources to show that they were. Better todo that instead of engage in edit warring.Faustian (talk) 04:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Interestingly, in the article about White Brazilians, Opinoso believes that Portuguese Jews were not Portuguese, but "actually Jews". Here he believes the opposite: that Jews born in Ukrain are Ukrainian. Why? Ninguém (talk) 02:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
There are NO Ukrainians in Brazil edit
According to Faustian, onlly those who speak Ukrainian, feel Ukrainian and follow a "Ukrainian culture" (?) are Ukrainians. Jews living in Ukraine for over 1,000 years cannot.
So, there are NO "Ukrainians of Brazil", because most of them cannot speak Ukrainian, do not feel Ukrainian and do not follow a Ukrainian culture.
Even those elderly generations who speak Ukrainian are largely influenced by "Brazilian culture". So, they loose their Ukrainian identity and culture as well.
So, should we exclude these so-called "Ukrainian Brazilians" from the article???
According to Faustian, YES. Because most Ukrainian-Brazilians do not speak Ukrainian, are only Brazilian citizens and do not care about Ukraine.
Do they have Ukrainian blood? Yes, but it does not matter. Blood is nothing. Ukraine was populated only 4,000 years ago. 100,000 years ago ALL humans were living in Africa.
Humans have ancestors from all around the world. So, a Brazilian having Ukrainian ancestors 3 generations back, probably have Italians, Mecedonians, Jews, Africans ancestors 17 generations back.
So, have or not Ukrainian blood does not make a person Ukrainian-Brazilian, according to you, Lispector was not Ukrainian because she had no "Ukrainian culture".
So, how many Ukrainian Brazilian exist? Probably only those who came from Ukraine recently, who speak Ukrainian and feel Ukrainian. 90% only speak Portuguese, don't care about Ukraine. They are only BRAZILIANS, according to Faustian.
If Jews living in Ukraine, like Lispector, for 1,000 years are not Ukrainians because they do not follow a Ukrainian culture and were not Ukrainian citizens, these people in Brazil are not Ukrainian-Brazilians, because most do not follow a Ukrainian culture, are not Ukrainian citizens and do not feel Ukrainians as well.
Let's change this article's name to "Brazilians of Brazil". Opinoso (talk) 04:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Have you read the article? Is states that most Ukrainians in Brazil do speak Ukrainian. There are numerous Ukrainian language schools in Parana and even courses for Ukrainian-language teachers at the university in Curitiba. And these claims are all referenced, of course.Faustian (talk) 04:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- This article is wrong. 98% of Brazilians only speak Portuguese. The ramaining 2% are blingual, mostly in German or Italian dialects, mostly in Southern Brazil, and those who speak Indigenous languages in remote areas.
I am Brazilian and I do not know ANY Brazilian who can speak Ukrainian. Even in those Ukrainian communities of Paraná, only people older than 60 years-old can speak Ukrainian. The rest are monolingual in Portuguese.
Anyway, speaking Ukrainian DOES NOT make a person Ukrainian in culture. I can learn Japanese, but I will never be a Japanese in culture.
These "Ukrainian of Brazil" are no long Ukrainian in culture. By the way, what is it to be Ukrainian in culture? Wear typical clothes once a year in a local party?
Please, stop watching Hollywood movies.
These Ukrainians of Brazil are only Brazilians. This article must be erased. Opinoso (talk) 04:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Again, those are just your opinions. I've met many young Ukrainians who fluently speak Ukrainian, including one of our priests. There was also a documentary about Ukrainians in Brazil shown in New YOrk and elsewhere. But our opinions or personal experiences don't matter. The source (Oksana Boruszenko and Rev. Danyil Kozlinsky (1994). Ukrainians in Brazil (Chapter), in Ukraine and Ukrainians Throughout the World, edited by Ann Lencyk Pawliczko, University of Toronto Press: Toronto, pp. 443-454) states: Among those who live in the colonies, or agricultural settlements, Ukrainian is widely spoken at home, in church, and in the community, and mixed marriages in these environments generally take on Ukrainian culture. Since 80% of Ukrainians live in the colonies (also referenced), the majority of Ukrainians in Brazil speak Ukrainian.Faustian (talk) 04:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- I don't believe most speak Ukrainian, HOWEVER, most are not culturally Ukrainians, since they have been in Brazil for over 100 years.
They are no longer Ukrainians in culture. So, they are not Ukrainian-Brazilians, because according to you, only those who follow a Ukrainian culture (?) are Ukrainians.
Those in Brazil, if not totally, are largely influenced by non-Ukrainian culture.
They are only Brazilians. Opinoso (talk) 04:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have any sources supporting your claim that Ukrainian-speaking people who have been living in Brazil for 100 years are no longer "culturally Ukrainians?"Faustian (talk) 05:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Nobody who has been for over 4 generation in Brazil, like these "Ukrainian-speaking" are Ukrainian in culture.
Most, probably all, also speak Portuguese. Younger generations probably only speak Portuguese. Most have contact with other Brazilians, listen to Brazilian music, eat Brazilian food, watch Brazilian television.
Nobody in Ukraine have contact with Brazilians, listen to Brazilian music, eat Brazilian food or watch Brazilian television.
Only these 4 segments make these Ukrainian-speaking people from Southern Brazil no longer Ukrainian in culture. Opinoso (talk) 05:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- So, no sources, only your opinion or so-called "common sense."Faustian (talk) 05:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- It is not "common sense". I do not use common sense, as you addmited to be using.
Only a crazy person would imagine these Ukrainian-Brazilians live in isolated areas, watching Ukrainian television and only speaking Ukrainian.
All immigrants were integrated into Brazil's society. Some took only 1 generation, like the Portuguese and Italians, others took 3 or 4, like Germans and Japanese. Ukrainians are no exception.
Even those who speak Ukrainian are more Brazilians than Ukrainians. They watch Brazilian soap-operas like other Brazilians, they use orkut as most Brazilians, they wear Brazilian clothes. They live in a tropical country, with other views of life, other traditions.
They are no longer Ukrainians, not in culture. Some of them must be still influenced by the Ukrainian culture, being able to speak Ukrainian or to cook a Ukrainian dish.
But this is the case of older generations, the same way Japanese and Germans in Brazil. Young generations do not feel Ukrainian. I am not saying they don't care about Ukraine. But they do not love it.
My grandmother is the daughter of Italian immigrants and she knows nothing about Italy. The same goes for most so-called "Ukrainian-Brazilians". Opinoso (talk) 05:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- I won't continue a "debate" (I shouldn'thave begun to engage in such, in the first place) with someone who admits to not using common sense, refers to those he disagress with as Nazis, etc. other than to continue to remind you to base your edits on sources, not opinions or your grandmother's experiences. Remember: Wikipedia:No original research. Faustian (talk) 05:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- You are the one who said to be using "common usage", not me.
You already attacked an user saying he could not talk about Eastern Europe because he was not "ethnic Ukrainian" as you are.
I will use the same argument: you cannot talk about Brazil, because you are not "ethinic Brazilian", as I am.
So, you talk about your 200 years ago Ukrainian conseptions. I talk about my 21st Brazilian conseptions.
In Brazil, Clarice and other Jews from Ukraine ARE Ukrainians. This article is about Brazil, so we use Brazilian conseptions, not odd conseptions from segregationist Ukraine.
In Brazil: ancestors from Ukraine = Ukrainian-descendant.
In Ukraine = we don't care. Opinoso (talk) 05:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Stick to sources, please, rather than untruths about what I had said or your personal theories.Faustian (talk) 05:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Look, if there is a verifiable credible source that says there are Ukrainians in Brazil, then it is legitimate to have that included and cited. If that fact does not accord with your own personal experience, it is regrettable, but does not overturn an accepted Wikipedia policy.--Riurik(discuss) 18:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I have changed all references to "Ukrainians in Brazil" to "Brazilians of Ukrainian descent". The very person who states that "there are no Ukrainians in Brazil" reversed my edit, and called it vandalism. Funny that. Ninguém (talk) 02:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, the people refered to in this article are certainly not "Ukrainians in Brazil". They are, on the contrary, Brazilians of Ukrainian descent. Ninguém (talk) 02:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- They refer to themselves as Ukrainians and are referred to as Ukrainians in the scholarly literature upon which wikipedia articles are based. They are Brazilians by citizenship and residence and Ukrainians by ethnicity. Perhaps while you're at it you should go to the article French Canadian and replace everything with "Canadians of French descent" also? Faustian (talk) 18:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- Excerpt from a Ukrainian-language interview with noted Sao Paulo architect Jorge Ribka, born and spent his entire life in Brazil [15]:
- "Він також патріот і України, і виправляє мене , коли я називаю його "бразильцем українського походження", - бо наголошує, що він є "українцем за кордоном"
Jewish Identity in Ukraine edit
This is from the website of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. I hope nobody accuses it of being a Nazi website or having 200 year old values:[16]
Jewish Identity
Jewish identity in the post-Soviet states is much more likely to be expressed as a sense of Jewish heritage than as adherence to Judaism as a religion. For Jews in these countries, the Jewish religion is hardly a factor in Jewishness. Russian and Ukrainian Jews consider belief in God, observance of the Sabbath, the dietary laws (kashrut), and circumcision as quite irrelevant to being a ‘good Jew.' What makes a good Jew is knowledge of history and culture and, especially, feeling pride in one's Jewishness and a duty to remember the Shoah or Holocaust.
Further, those Jews who identified most strongly as Jews were among the first to leave Ukraine when emigration became possible in the post-Khrushchev period. Jewish adults who remain in Ukraine are unlikely to be agents of Jewish socialization within their own families as decades of Soviet restrictions against Jewish education and practice have left them ignorant of Jewish tradition. Intermarriage also weakens the family as a transmitter of Jewish heritage.
So let's not rob Jewish people of their Jewish self-identification.Faustian (talk) 13:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ethnic Jews in Ukraine never associated themselves with Ukrainian ethnicity but rather with the nationality (from Nation) of the ruling power. In Ukraine, because of the fact that Ukraine was administered by various powers, Jews living in Ukraine associated themselves with the ruling administration: as Polish Jews, Romanian Jews, Austrian Jews, Hungarian Jews, Russian Jews. Sometimes one comes across Soviet Jew or Galitzien Jew. Only about 4-10% could actually speak Ukrainian let alone had any association with the ethnic culture. Most also lived in urban centres.
- Do a Google search of Ukrainian Jew in comparison to the ones mentioned above and you will find very few references as now that Ukraine has independence recently Jews do associate themselves with Ukrainian Nationality/citizenship
- I've seen born in Lwow Poland, born in Lemberg Austria, Lvov Russia anything but Ukraine.
- A year or two ago I tried to collect all the classical musicians who were born in what is today Ukraine. This included Poles, Jews, Germans, Czechs, Russians. The catagory was deleted and criticized for being Nationalistic. Now the opposite is happening. Go figure. Bandurist (talk) 13:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a factual note. That "only about 4-10% could actually speak Ukrainian" is a huge understatement. At least those who lived in Soviet Ukraine or live in modern Ukraine can speak Ukrainian in much higher numbers. It is more correct to say that for the Jews in Ukraine the UA language is usually not the mother tongue. That would be true. But Jews know Ukrainian and can speak it very well. --Irpen 01:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Brazilians born in Ukraine? edit
Boris Casoy was born in São Paulo, not Ukraine at all. Opinoso (talk) 16:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps that section can be renamed to "Notable Brazilians descended from non-ethnic Ukrainians from Ukraine", or something similar.Faustian (talk) 20:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- "Notable Brazilians descended from non-ethnic Ukrainians from Ukraine" is very cumbersome. How about "Notable Brazilians of Ukrainian descent" Here I think that the ethnic connection is self-evident. It is not a political relationaship as in citizenship.
What would be interesting would be a section on the Ukrainian contribution to Brazilian culture. Bandurist (talk) 13:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
To be used as a source later edit
Article from a Ukrainian newspaper: [17].Faustian (talk) 05:17, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
From the forward of a Ukrainian-Brazilian book:
« - По волі й по неволі мусимо шукати на чужині своєї України... Там, де нас закинула химерна доля... Бо Україна там, де ми зі своєю любов’ю до Неї, зі своїми думками про Неї, зі своїми зусиллями задля Неї...Бо Україна розселятиметься по всьому світу, куди ми нестимемо її ідею, де ми роститимемо її красу, з ким би не зв’язала нас для життя, для праці, для радощів і турбот, наша доля».
"Freely or not freely we must find in a foreign land our own Ukraine...There, where chimeric fate has thrown us... Because Ukraine is there, where there are we with our love for Her, with our thoughts about Her, with all our will towards Her...Because Ukraine is scattered across the whole world, where we carry its idea, where we nurture its beauty, with whom all our lives are tied, our work, our joys and sorrows, and our fate."Faustian (talk) 04:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Boris Casoy edit
I removed Boris Casoy because I saw an interview where he reported to be the son of Russian Jews. Most sources also claim this. Opinoso (talk) 03:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Estimations edit
Article says: "As of 1994, 1.000.000 Ukrainians lived in Brazil, 80% (or approximately 350,000) of whom lived in a compact region ..." 80% of 1M is 800.000, not 350.000. Which number is correct? OlexiyO (talk) 11:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Diaspora edit
This article is part of a series of articles about the Ukrainian diaspora, defined on that article as "The Ukrainian diaspora is the global community of ethnic Ukrainians, especially those who maintain some kind of connection, even if ephemeral, to the land of their ancestors and maintain their feeling of Ukrainian national identity within their own local community." There are comparable articles about Ukrainian Australians, Ukrainian Argentines, etc. The Ukrainian disapora is like all diasporas such as the Armenian diaspora, Greek diaspora, Croatian diaspora, etc. an ethnic community. An ethnic Azeri from Armenia who emigrates to Brazil is not part of the Armenian Brazilian community. An ethnic Serb who flees Croatia and moved to Argentina is not an Argentine Croatian. This article is also in the category "ethnic groups in Brazil." While there are non-ethnic Ukrainians from the territory of Ukraine, these people, like Serbs in Croatia, are not necessarily part of the Ukrainian community, may not identify themselves as Ukrainians, and may indeed strongly identify with other ethnic/cultural groups. In the past there was some heated discussion about this and as a compromise, non-Ukrainians were listed in this article too, but in a separate section where they are clearly labeled as being descended from people born in Ukraine, so as not to confuse the reader into thinking that they are "Ukrainians." Faustian (talk) 03:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Clarice Lispector edit
Never identified as Ukrainian or "Ukrainian-Brazilian". Her mother was raped in Ukraine, by a nationalist gang, in the context of the crumbling of the Czarist Empire; this allegation of "Ukrainian-Brazilian" identity may be a cruel jape about such rape and her birthdate. Racist jokes should be removed from here. Ninguém (talk) 22:13, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
- I, the creator of this article, agree she shouldn't be listed. However someone else insisted she has to be, and this version is the compromise version. There's a lengthy discussion in the talk pages.05:47, 31 August 2012 (UTC)