Talk:Triune brain

This article is biased

The article is biased toward a paradigm shift away from discussion of the triune brain hypothesis without going into enough pros and cons of the hypothesis. Birds are not humans. Birds are very evolved due to the limited lifespans, etc. etc.. Typical outside bird lives like 2years? That means they've got to spread their genes A LOT more often, have more children, have potentially more genetic mutations than humans ever would, thus evolve more often to have significantly different neuroanatomy, etc.. etc.. Neuroanatomically, there are some behavioral and animal differences between humans and EVERYTHING ELSE. It's a decent model when applied to humans, I think. A quick search on parrots (they live a long time) shows that they eat meat. They might have some r-complex stuff involved. --Cyberman (talk) 22:55, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Clotaire Rapaille

I removed this paragraph from the "Triune Brain" article:

Market Researcher Clotaire Rapaille makes reference to the R-Complex in his book The Culture Code. He claims that the understanding of consumer behavior lies within the "Reptilian Brain" (also known as the unconscious). Rapaille believes that when consumers make decisions, the "Reptilian Brain" always wins .

Rapaille's work is very peripheral with regard to the subject of the article. A Google search for "reptilian brain" yielded over 80,000 hits. The idea that the limbic system and the neocortex are conscious and only the reptilian brain isn't is naive. It's obvious that tremendous amounts of processing by all the psychic functions takes place below the level of conscious awareness. For example, when one retrieves the words to express an idea there is no direct awareness of the process by which the individual words are selected. And Rapaille's theory is simplistic and nonempirical. Kevin Langdon (talk) 07:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

References

obsolescence?

If the triune brain theory has been largely abandoned by researchers, can someone insert a note about what models of the brain have succeeded it? I'm interested and know fairly little about the subject.

Propaganda until I see some original sources in paper. --Cyberman (talk) 23:03, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

The brain is hugely complex, and the very idea of having a simple "model of the brain" is wrong. But the triune brain theory is not only wrong because it oversimplifies, it's wrong because it ignores the facts about brain evolution in different animals (see the sources in the article). Oleasylvestris (talk) 10:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It's funny to think that the model is obsolete. I think it's real.--186.61.243.225 (talk) 14:38, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

If you want to say this is a contemporary theory, please cite a contemporary RS that says so (what you think is not a RS). MrDemeanour (talk) 16:31, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Other brain models?

Reiterating the need for information about models which replaced the triune brain. If none have been developed please share that as well. Powered by the Human Spirit 20:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The excellent work of Nieuwenhuys and Puelles on the evolution-based reevaluation of classical neuromorphology should be referred to, somewhere in this article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.204.227.105 (talk) 20:01, 9 September 2019 (UTC) 

References

Paul Patton

I am a comparative neuroscientist. I added some new material describing the claims of the triune brain hypothesis more clearly, and a new section explaining how subsequent developments in comparative neuroanatomy and animal behavior have rendered the model outdated in the eyes of comparative evolutionary neuroscientists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.186.48.157 (talk) 03:57, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Many of the statements made in part 6 of this article (Continuing popular interest in the model) are contradicted by the referenced evidence cited in part 5 (Current status of the model). I think that part 6 should either be removed or modified to discuss solely the persistence of the triune brain model in popular culture despite its rejection by most members of the relevant scientific community. Any comments or objections? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.129.81.209 (talk) 22:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I strongly agree, for the same reasons. Oleasylvestris (talk) 10:22, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Triune & Quadrune Mind models

As a recently retired engineer/physicist, I was particularly pleased to see the quote by statistician George E. P. Box "Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful."

In my former professional world, there are various types of “models.” Some models are intended to display the physical characteristics of the thing or concept to be communicated (e.g. a subscale model train, a clay mockup of a new car, an anatomically accurate brain model). Some models are intended to describe the functional / behavioral characteristics of the thing or concept to be communicated (e.g. a macroeconomic model, a system model of an electrical transmission grid, a mathematical equation such as F= ma, a mind model, etc.). A neurosurgeon strives to be anatomically (physically) correct; a psychologist strives to be behaviorally (functionally) correct. Both use models - different models. None of these models are “real” instances. All help to communicate a specific perspective and provide a better understanding of our universe. All models have limited application.

McClean did not make a convincing mapping of his functional model of the mind into today’s physical model of the brain. Whether or not his Triune functional model accurately represents the observed behavior of evolving species is probably worth further investigation. Anyone going down that road of investigation would want to include Michael Dowd”s (“Thank God for Evolution”) proposed Quadrune Mind functional model for human behavior – not to be confused with a neurological map/model of the brain. Mahetrick (talk) 14:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

The Triune Theory is useful

Just google a picture of an atom with electrons orbiting in perfect circles. It is highly inaccurate, but it is useful because of its simplicity. The beauty of the triune theory is like the oversimplified atomic model. Please do not use your vast knowledge to criticize how inaccurate the triune theory is. Because it would be like a physicists trying to use quantum mechanics to argue how wrong the electron orbit model is. The triune theory is useful and elegant. All models are wrong, but some are useful. The triune theory illustrates many complicated principles in very simple and intuitive terms. It illustrates principles without frying one's brain with massive amounts of details.

I also read the "Status of the model" section. It mentioned about reptiles, fishes, and birds. The triune theory is more often used by psychologist and lay people. The triune theory when focused on human evolution makes a lot of sense. The reptiles, fishes, and birds mentioned are divergent species from our evolutionary line. That is their brain evolved independently and differently from the triune theory.

When used in a human context and not on birds and alligators or crocodilians it would make a lot of sense. That is our earliest reptilian ancestor may have the reptilian structure like that proposed by the triune theory. Then this reptilian brain gradually layered by mammalian and neocortex layer. The problem with comparing it to birds and alligators is that, they are divergent lines from the human line. The triune theory may be used to only explain human brain evolution and not other species. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrZhuKeeper (talk • contribs) 15:38, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

You claim to have read the status of the model section and yet didn't read that all the parts of the triune brain model alre present through out all vertebrates save for a true neocortex but that sauropsids ("reptiles" and birds) have an homologue? the model is not wrong because it's simplistic, it's just wrong. Mike.BRZ (talk) 05:02, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Paleomammalian Brain

"MacLean's recognition of the limbic system as a major functional system in the brain was not widely accepted among neuroscientists, and is generally regarded as his most important contribution to the field."

This statement seems self-contradictory, and could use some clarification (not to mention citation). At the very least, it seems like the 'and' should be changed to a 'but', but even better would be some explanation. I'm not an expert, so I don't want to edit it myself. --Thegooseking (talk) 11:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree the statement is self-contradictory, and suggest that the error is the word 'not'. The limbic system has been 'widely accepted among neuroscientists' ever since it was proposed, and is still in common use. Unless anyone objects, I will delete 'not' when I next visit this page. Brymor (talk) 21:11, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Section on the legal application of the theory

In the introduction, there is an out of place paragraph on what appears to be a legal treatise based on a superficial interpretation of the triune theory. It contributes nothing to our understanding, and so I recommend it be removed. Thmskmbl (talk) 22:36, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Reptile Theory

It would be nice to add a section that goes more in detail about this, such as describing milestone cases that this theory has been used in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.89.164.250 (talk) 20:34, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Reference Does Not Backup Assertion

In the opening section the text "However, this hypothesis is no longer espoused by the majority of comparative neuroscientists in the post-2000 era.[2]" does not seems supported by the reference, which is an exhortation to neuroscientists not to subscribe to the theory, rather than a review of neuroscientists' views alecmce (talk) 10:18, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

The text there is somewhat awkward but still correct. Quoting from that reference 2 we have This understanding of cognition and emotion leads to a view of the mammalian brain as divided into cognitive “higher” regions (neocortex) and emotional “lower” subcortical regions. This division is perhaps best exemplified in Paul MacLean’s discredited triune model of the mammalian brain (MacLean, 1952, 1990; for criticisms see Swanson, 1983; LeDoux, 2012). The lower, animal parts of the brain are understood (in line with the Hughlings-Jackson “Victorian” narrative) as standing in a linear, and hierarchical relationship to the higher neocortical regions. Why assume however that the only parts of the human brain to undergo change over the course of evolution were those located in the cortex?. So the source contains citations of 2 critiques and a sentence encapsulating the key criticism (suspension of evolution). So, I think that the source supports the claim made in the text under consideration. Klbrain (talk) 16:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Natural History of Skills

For a recent review of hypotheses concerning the respective roles of the dorsal pallium (a.k.a. the cortex in the mammals), the basal ganglia and the thalamus see "A Natural History of Skills, Thomas Boraud, Arthur Leblois, Nicolas Rougier, Progress in Neurobiology (2018). Article is freely available at https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01874690. I extracted figure 2 and insert into the page to illustrate the paragraph on the development of pallium in vertebrates. This reference might be useful but since I'm the last author of the article, I did not add it to the list of references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicolas P. Rougier (talk • contribs) 10:22, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Update: I finally added the reference () . Nicolas P. Rougier (talk) 17:53, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

(detailed objective criticism) This wiki-article is biased and should be edited according to sources:

Read the following research paper - Modeling the instinctive-emotional-thoughtful mind. — Daniel S.Levine, 2017.

"Influenced by the Triune brain theory that was proposed in the early sixties, many current theories propose a hierarchical organization on the top of which stands the cortex to which the subcortical structures are subordinated." (A natural history of skills. 2018. Thomas Boraud, Arthur Leblois, Nicolas P.Rougier)

Collective information about the triune brain - sciencedirect.com

And more studies that indirectly confirm that the wiki-article is not objective (quotes and links to sources):

• Brainstem and Reflex

1. "The process consist the transition made from brain stem reflex response to cortically controlled response." 2018.
2. "The masseter or mandibular reflex has unique neural connections, different from those exhibited by other human monosynaptic reflexes; thus, it is useful to evaluate in an easy and efficient way the human brain stem." 2011.
3. "Investigation of brainstem reflexes may provide insight into disturbed reflex excitation and inhibition underlying these movement disorders." 2004.
4. "Guillain–Barré Syndrome with Absent Brainstem Reflexes: A Case Report" 2014.
5. "Brainstem reflex circuits revisited" 2005.
6. "Brainstem Functions and Reflexes" 2020.
7. "Brainstem reflexes: Electrodiagnostic techniques, physiology, normative data, and clinical applications" 2002.

• Limbic system

1. "...Rather, results from the last half century yield a picture that is closer to a triune parcellation of the mind into instincts, emotions, and thoughts, with extensive overlap as well as connections among brain regions involved in all three." 2017.
2. "The limbic system of the brain regulates a number of behaviors that are essential for the survival of all vertebrate species including humans. The limbic system predominantly controls appropriate responses to stimuli with social, emotional, or motivational salience, which includes innate behaviors such as mating, aggression, and defense." 2012.
3. "The amygdala is known to have a role in core processes regulated by the limbic system such as motivation, memory, emotion, social behavior, self-awareness as well as certain primitive instincts." 2016.
4. "Limbic-visual attenuation to crying faces underlies neglectful mothering" 2019.
5. "The Limbic System or Paleomammalian Cortex is a set of brain structures that deals with emotions, feelings, attention, general attitude, pleasureor annoyance, agreeable or disagreeable experiences, and memory. It regulates autonomic or endocrine function in response to emotional stimuli." 2021.

• Neocortex

1. "The size and surface area of the mammalian brain are thought to be critical determinants of intellectual ability." 2011.
2. "Humans have the largest of primate brains that is 80% neocortex with about 200 areas. Other changes include more and more complex cortical networks, such as those for language, and modular and cellular specializations within areas. These and other changes allow the impressive mental abilities of humans." 2019.
3. "The enlargement and species-specific elaboration of the cerebral neocortex during evolution holds the secret to the mental abilities of humans..." 2009.
4. "The neural circuits of the mammalian neocortex are crucial for perception, complex thought, cognition, and consciousness." 2013.
5. "The neocortex, which is characteristic of mammals, has evolved to play important roles in cognitive and perceptual functions." 2011.
6. "The neocortex is the most representative and elaborated structure of the mammalian brain and is related to the achievement of complex cognitive capabilities, which are disturbed following malformation or lesion." 2009.
7. "Autism spectrum disorders (ASDs) impair social cognition and communication, key higher-order functions centered in the human neocortex." 2013.
8. "The mammalian neocortex is a structure with no equals in the vertebrates and is the seat of the highest cerebral functions, such as thoughts and consciousness." 2013.
9. "The prefrontal neocortex is involved in many high cognitive functions in humans." 2020.
10. "The neocortex, a six-layer neuronal brain structure that arose during the evolution of, and is unique to, mammals, is the seat of higher order brain functions responsible for human cognitive abilities." 2021.
11. "The disproportional enlargement of the neocortex through evolution has been instrumental in the success of vertebrates, in particular mammals." 2015.
12. "The neocortex, the seat of our higher cognitive abilities, has expanded in size during the evolution of certain mammals such as primates, including humans." 2021.
13. "The neocortex of the human brain is the seat of higher brain function." 2018. Logvlad9 (talk) 11:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Wiki Education assignment: Mind-Body, section 17

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 10 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NanukStorm11, Jellybean salad, JoshLeblanc (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Mattfed, Sofiakaramitsos2237129.

— Assignment last updated by Sofiakaramitsos2237129 (talk) 16:22, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Mind-Body, section 18

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 10 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kuhiria, Chen2005, Wc802, James-Matthew Donovan (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Tai Jake Junior, Caprice1234, Cloudsareblue.

— Assignment last updated by Cloudsareblue (talk) 17:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Lay Interest edit

@WikiLinuz Hello, I noticed you reverted a recent edit of mine in the lay interest section. I am not very well versed in navigating wikipedia's UI, but I saw on your talk page you requested article-specific discussions happen on that article's talk page and to notify you with a ping. Hopefully I have managed to figure this out.

Anyway, the listed reason you reverted my edit was lack of a source, which I understand, although I notice that none of the other listed examples in the paragraph to which I added my edit have sources either. What sort of source would be best to accompany my edit? The two available sources I can immediately think of would be a page from the game's wiki which mentions the triune brain mechanics in passing ([1]; "In this dream his ancient reptilian brain and limbic system confront himself...") or a website that allows users to search through the text of the game ([2]). However I'm not sure if either of these is adequate. The wiki is unofficial, and I don't think there is any specific quotation from fayde.co.uk I could reference that would act as an adequate source. There might be commentary by the game's creators regarding the triune brain model's incorporation into the game, but I would have to go scouring for it.

Please let me know your opinions on this. I would like to reinstate my edit because I am fond of Disco Elysium and think its usage of the triune brain model should be acknowledged! But I want to make sure it complies with wikipedia standards before trying again because I don't want to piss off any editors.

Abracadaze (talk) 10:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The first source is WP:USERGENERATED so not a reliable source. The second source didn't mention about the subject, so it would be original research to include them. Regarding type of source, please see WP:RS policy. Basically a reputable source (a source reputable within a specific community would also be okay). --WikiLinuz (talk) 17:05, 27 May 2024 (UTC)