Talk:Third camp

Why is there nothing on the Worker-Communist traditions of Iran and Iraq? They even operate a Third Camp TV show on their television station. Rmalhotr 23:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've mentioned them briefly, but it sounds like you have plenty of information to pad this out. Warofdreams talk 02:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

hey guys! there is mistake here. Number one it is Worker-Communist Party Of Iran that is supporting Third Camp not Worker-Communist Party of Iraq. the Left Worker-Communist Party of Iraq also supports third camp.

the bigger mistake is that this Third Camp is really another thing altogether! we back a Third Camp position meaning that we want to oppose US Millitarism and Political Islam at the same time. this should be mentioned. it is worth knowing that AWL group in Britain has critisized us on Third Camp (Sacha Ismail has written about in their paper "Solidarity"). please do the changes. --Arash red 10:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Libertarian Socialist League

The Libertarian Socialist League existed between 1949 and 1956 (not to be confused with the Libertarian League which Bookchin was in). Some issues of their journal, Socialist Monthly, were recently posted online at an archival site at Bloomsberg U. The literature posted mentions "third camp" politics over and over so I think if we could ever get enough info for a listing for this group, it would be great. A leading figure was Virgil Vogel who also wrote for New Politics.Rmalhotr 23:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the group, but it looks interesting, and certainly describes itself as part of the third camp. Its attacks on the ISL suggest it was a split from that group, although the two independent references I can find [1] and [2] both simply state that it was formed by members of the Socialist Party in protest at that group's move to the right. The journal (and, indeed, the name of the group) suggests some sympathies with anarchism. That seems pretty slim pickings for an article, but if someone could find Vogel's book The first Libertarian Socialist League, 1949-1956, I suspect one could be viable. Warofdreams talk 00:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Post soviet

What exactly does it mean to be 3rd camp post-soviet era?--Gary123 (talk) 23:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That's certainly been a matter of debate, and an area which should be covered in the article. Workers Liberty's usage could be broadly described as wherever possible supporting progressive workers' movements rather than either side in wars between capitalist nations. Namazie's position has some similarities, but less emphasis on the working class, and she doesn't really acknowledge a link with earlier concepts (although her concept is almost certainly influence by the WPI's friendly relationship with the AWL). You could probably find people who argue that the idea of a third camp cannot be extended beyond not siding with capitalist states or with the North Korea, Cuba, etc. Warofdreams talk 00:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I think there are the some strategic implications. In comparison, consider the followers of Tony Cliff, whose Stalinophobia leads them to be deeply suspicious of anti-capitalist mass movements with non-Trotskyist leaderships, such as the movements led by figures like Hugo Chavez. I think there's a similar trend in the Third Camp which means, for example, separation from the mass movements like Hezbollah and a cautious attitude towards the demand for troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and to movements opposed to monopoly and to nuclear power.--Duncan (talk) 08:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Ex-3rd Camp neo-cons

The article claims a number of Schactmanites became neo-cons: Linda Chavez, Richard Perle, etc. But I don't know if any of them actually were, although some were YPSL or SDUSA members. The only evidence seems to be scurrilous articles by conpiracy theorist Raimondo. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that, if someone has the knowledge or the time to sort out which well-known neo-cons really were "Third Camp" advocates (whether formally associating with Schachtman or not), please make the corrections. The point of this "Criticisms" section is just to inform interested readers that there is a well-known line of criticism directed against the Third Camp position, based on the idea that its adherents gravitate toward a "critical support" for US imperialism against tyranny, etc. There is not doubt that this is indeed a common complaint, whether or not it is entirely fair. Part of what is offered to substantiate the charge is anecdotal evidence of prominent 3rd camp adherents who gravitated toward a neo-con position (typified today by people like Christopher Hitchens and signatories to the Euston Manifesto, which isn't itself a neo-con document, but which supports a broadly neo-con -- or, to use a less loaded label, a Bush/Blair -- stance on the "War on Terrorism"). So, it should just be a matter at listing a few names of former-Third-Camp neo-cons, or Eustonites 129.100.98.112 (talk) 20:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)Steve

Note - I've removed the 'Criticism' section referred to above, as it was very poorly sourced. A list of names was given of alleged former 'Third Campists' who became neoconservatives, but no sources were provided for any of them, and in most cases this alleged affiliation was not mentioned in their articles. If a criticism section is to be re-added, it needs to be well-sourced; in particular, per the WP:BLP policy, contentious claims about living people must not be made without an accompanying source. Robofish (talk) 23:51, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Schachtman and Cliff

I have removed the following paragraph and put it on the discussion page for the time being. The problem with it is

1. There is no source given for this information
2. The Cliff tendency members I have met have always denied this,orally and in writing.
3. The only place I have seen this information before is in the publications of political groups very hostile towards Cliff

Anyone have more info?

While Tony Cliff, founder of the British SWP later became a bitter critic of Shachtman, Cliff's organisation initially cooperated with Shachtman and sold his tendency's magazine. They adopted similar positions including neutrality during the Korean War and its slogan "Neither Washington nor Moscow but International Socialism", which has led some outside the party to describe them as having held a third camp position. However, Cliff's supporters point out that this slogan has a broadly Trotskyist heritage, rather than a specifically third campist one: the manifesto of the Fourth International's world congress in 1948 was titled "Against Wall Street and the Kremlin".129.100.98.112 (talk) 20:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Johncmullen1960 (talk) 06:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I too was somewhat curious to know why there's no discussion of the "neither Washington nor Moscow…" slogan and the similarities and/or differences between the Schachtmanite (variety of?) third-campists and the Cliffite IS, at least before Schachtman's drift rightward.

(Full disclosure: I was active around the US ISO for the better part of a decade but am only now digging into some of the International Socialist Tendency's history that led to its particular variety of Trotskyism)

Dhraakellian (talk) 02:25, 9 March 2021 (UTC)