Talk:The Skies are Weeping

Links and Quotes

"The Skies are Weeping" (2005)

Philip Munger (Alaska 1946)

London Percussion Ensemble, Peter Crockford, dir.; Deborah Fink, soprano; Coro Cervantes Choir

Stage censorship The Guardian, Saturday 4 March 2006

Given the lack of free speech and right-wing pressure in the US, it is no surprise that a theatre company in New York has refused to put on the play My Name is Rachel Corrie (Surely Americans will not put up with this censorship, March 1). Composer Philip Munger tried to put on a classical cantata, called The Skies are Weeping, about Rachel at Anchorage University in Alaska, only to be met with opposition from the local Jewish community, followed by threats sent to himself and the soprano soloist. He cancelled the performance as he feared for the safety of the student performers. It was then scheduled to be put on in New York, but the organisers backed out for no reason.

In contrast, I had no problems organising and singing the soprano part in its world premiere in London last year. There was a small pro-Israeli government demonstration outside, but more Jews (like myself) were involved in organising, donating towards and inside watching the concert.

Deborah Fink

Project director, The Skies are Weeping Stage censorship The Guardian, Saturday 4 March 2006

Mondoweiss Of course you pay a price for criticizing Israel in this country

Speak Ill of the Dead Rachel Corrie @ Seattle Rep

Camden Islington & West End - News Reviews Listings

Too Hot for New York

Some links Kasaalan (talk) 00:20, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Flashpoint cantata adn.com Munger Bishko discuission

We may add Munger Bishko discussions too. Kasaalan (talk) 11:49, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Article about performance

[1]

[2]

More links. Kasaalan (talk) 00:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Sources and Citation for Moshe Nissim Interview

Most of the sources on internet for the interview based on [Gush Shalom translation] therefore I am searching other sources.

Sources Using Gush Shalom English translation of Gush Shalom Hebrew Text as a reference

• Jenin Inquiry Report

• Jenin: A Soldier's Triumph in his own Words

• Shalom Archav

• CENTRAL CONNECTICUT STATE UNIVERSITY BLINDED BY TERROR UNITED STATES POLICY TOWARDS THE USE OF TERROR IN THE ISRAELI - PALESTINIAN CONFLICT THESIS by Steven B. Kramer "Tsadok Yehezkeli, “I Made Them a Stadium in the Middle of the Camp,” Yediot Aharonot, 31 May 2002, translated from Hebrew by Gush Shalom, available from http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html; Internet, accessed April 8, 2005."

• Lessons in Urbicide Stephen Graham Durham University Department of Geography

• Cover Up on Gaza Beach Israel Spinning Out of Control By RAMZY BAROUD quoting Peter Lagerquist, The Daily Star, 11/22/03

• Quoted in the Book Derek Gregory's The Colonial Present: Afghanistan, Palestine, and Iraq pgs. 114 and 115 forum not reliable source

• Quoted in Surin, Kenneth, 1948- "The Night Can Sweat with Terror As Before": Afterthoughts The South Atlantic Quarterly - Volume 102, Number 4, Fall 2003, pp. 895-913 Duke University Press from the Book Israel/Palestine: How to End the War of 1948, 2nd ed. (Open Media) (Paperback) by Tanya Reinhart professor of linguistics and cultural studies at Tel Aviv University and at the University of Utrecht

• How they bulldozed Jenin By Asma Rashid Pakistan Newspaper

Reference to Moshe Nissim interview

• quoting Twilight zone / Bullets instead of applause By Gideon Levy Haaretz, 11.4.2005404

Medal of Honour Moshe Nissim Receive After Publication of the Interview

• Pravda Washington is pro-Israeli and anti-Arab, whatever excuses it makes for its foreign policy

• The Arab Thought Forum

• Medal of Honour to Moshe Nissim

• [3]

• [4]

Partly Translations of the Interview by Other Parties

• Israel’s Policy of Displacement: PA Interviews Jeff Halper the coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD) OR Israel’s Policy of Displacement: Political Affairs Interviews Jeff Halper OR his book "An Israeli in Palestine: Resisting Dispossession, Redeeming Israel (Paperback) by Jeff Halper (Author)"

• Report: The Impending Abyss A Comprehensive Assessment of the Past and Future Trajectory of the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed

• BtSelem Operation Defensive Shield Soldiers Testimonies' Palestinian Testimonies'

Jenin

• [5]

I will add the sources I can find, you can help too, if you can search in Hebrew. Kasaalan (talk) 01:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Reply from Yksin

First, I put your second set of links below the first -- it's better on talk pages if you put the latest stuff bottommost, because otherwise it gets very confusing to follow discussion, particularly if there will be very much of it.

Second, seems to me the two most relevant things about the Moshe Nissim interview for the sake of this article is:

1. Artistic choice of text. The text that Philip Munger used for the cantata is a particular translation. No matter how many other translations one can find, this is the relevant text -- just as the translation he chose of Psalm 137 was the King James Version, rather than RSV, NIV, NSRV, or any of a zillion other translations of the book of Psalms. Munger's decision to use this translation (if perhaps the only one he knew of at the time), & his choice of which portions to excerpt for the cantata, is an artistic choice; any other translation is relevant only to the extent that it might answer my second point below (accuracy).

1. The accuracy of the translation he chose may be at issue, at least according to one internet discussion I saw which claims this particular translation to be a "misquote." Munger responded in that discussion to say that he had checked the translation out with Israeli journalists/native speakers of Hebrew.

Any discussion of the translation needs to be relevant to those two points. Otherwise the article starts going way far afield of what it's about, which is the cantata & reaction to it. If further info about Nissim & his interview is important & notable, then maybe that's the subject of a different Wikipedia article. -- Yksin (talk) 01:58, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Further clarification. Which isn't to say that a brief description of the relevant facts about Moshe Nissim's actions at Jenin aren't relevant to this article. So... let me amend myself by thanking you for the extensive work you're doing to research this. I can't help with searching out Hebrew stuff though because I can't read Hebrew, & Hebrew sources would have limited utility on the English language Wikipedia. Though we should probably source the interview in its original form. --Yksin (talk) 02:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The original interview is published by Yediot Aharonot along with its internet edition according to Gush Shalom. Gush Shalom quoted from them and tranlated into English. The rest of the internet sources uses Gush Shalom translation including the Philip Munger's source because I checked all the sources word by word. I have mentioned the Moshe Nissim interview in 3 different pages. Actually I don't have much doubt of the interview translation because Gush Shalom provided the Hebrew original. Yet if we can also find the original source of Yediot then the interview have higher reliability in wikipedia, not only limited to The Skies are Weeping, but also at Jenin Battle or Rachel Corrie like any other article related. I put above links on Moshe Nissim interview, because somehow they might help this article too. They are originally copied from my other discussions against users objecting the source. What the links basically show are, Philip Munger's source quoted from Gush-Shalom's full English translation, original Hebrew interview provided by Gush Shalom, some other partial translations other than and similar to Gush Shalom exist, and the interview is mentioned in some books and academic sources, which shows notability. Kasaalan (talk) 10:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Also Couple's Company article is very detailed, first you may read it if you haven't already. Also artistic section needs to be improved, which is no expertise of mine because just a good music listener I am and not a composer. Kasaalan (talk) 10:17, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I'll be working more on the artistic section -- Munger's "protest music" blog (which you linked) includes a copy of the description/defense of how he wrote the cantata that he gave at the UAA forum, & has some great stuff about how it was put together. I just downloaded 5 of the 7 movements to my iPod, had difficulty with two of them so will have to try again. I'm also working on the account of the UAA forum -- reading the sources already cited, as well as some others -- additional Anchorage Daily News & Northern Light articles that aren't as easily found on the internet. (The Northern Lights is the UAA student newspaper.) But probably won't be too much change until Thursday because my Wednesday is fully booked. --Yksin (talk) 10:49, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

You most possibly busy, but if you dont have time, my knowledge on this matter will not improve the article much for now. When will you have time for the article. Kasaalan (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The Skies are Weeping 08 April 2004 Speech

The Skies are Weeping April 8, 2004 Speech

Discussion of this article

I have raised a question about this article here. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 07:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Replied. Kasaalan (talk) 10:54, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

For my part I can say tough recording quality is low, the music is good, 7. Rachel's Words, especially 1. Psalm 137 and 2. Dance for Tom Hurndall, the choir-solo parts in some other movements could be improved to the same quality especially high pitched parts, some lyrics are strong, and visual performances are great. Kasaalan (talk) 11:11, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

"Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall" section is off topic?

I see no direct connection between the section's content and the article subject; there is actually little connection even between the section title and its content, as Moshe Nissim describes the events that are apparently unrelated to the deaths of two people mentioned.

The section itself is interesting and worthy of inclusion, but this is not the place. (Two obvious target articles are House demolition in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict and Battle of Jenin.) GregorB (talk) 23:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

I took a serious break from wikipedia and don't have much time to debate or edit at least 3 more months . So as a summary, section 5 of the cantata lyrics quotes Moshe Nissim's interview, who was a bulldozer operator at 2002 Jenin incursion. Read 5. Recitative: I had no mercy for anybody at http://www.criticalconcern.com/skies_are_weeping_.htm Kasaalan (talk) 21:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)