Talk:Tantra massage

Andro

It is pure fiction that Andro is the inventor of the tantric massage! The article was started by a member of the Tantramassage-Verband e. V. of which he is president. It is PR, nothing else. Therefore the entry Tantramassage in the German Wikipedia was deleted some months ago, and at the moment there is a discussion about the quality because there are no sources for the topic. --Edi Goetschel 23:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to provide a source to support this. Meanwhile, since there is a source to support the fact that he did, the article has been changed to reflect the available sources. —Hanuman Das 16:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a preposterous that Andro is the originator of tantra massage. I myself was involved with tantrikas who were doing versions of tantra massages back in the 70's. I think Andro had best do some study about the history of tantra. Good grief, the use of sensual massage/tantra massage was recorded in Part II, Chapter 3 of the Karma Sutra! How's that for citing source?!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.112.120.146 (talk) 13:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

The Andro organization continues attempts to market thier association even though credible sources have been cited that clearly convey the information they post is inaccurate. Further alterations by the organization will be reported.

Please read WP:V and WP:CITE. You should not remove cited material from the article. WP does not require Truth, only verifiability. Everything you add must be cited to a source, like the citation is the article. If you keep removing cited material and replacing it with material which is uncited and does not have an encyclopedic tone, you will eventually be blocked from editing. Please learn WP policy and expand the article in an encyclopdic tone using citations for every fact added. —Hanuman Das 15:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not a member of any tantra massage organization. I am an experienced wikipedian editor attempting to make this article compliant with the rules of Wikipedia. Go ahead and report me. You are in the wrong and will be told so. Please familarize yourself with the policies outlined, as well as the three revert rule. You can be blocked if you revert to your version more than 3 times in 24 hours. —Hanuman Das 15:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that you educate yourself about the subject of tantra and tantra massage. The practice is over 5000 years old. The notion that the modality was created in the 80's is absolutely preposterous. There are ancient writings that cite tantra massage, such as the kama sutra. This source has been cited in the article. Your attempt to continually revert back to marketing an "association" that many sources have stated is an association that was created for the purposes of marketing their own practices is quite questionable, especially since a much older source has been cited. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.112.120.177 (talk) 15:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

I am educated in tantra. The Kama Sutra is not a tantric text, it is a sex manual. You are reverting to an article with a non-encyclopedic tone and a raft of completely uncited material. The current article is nearly completely cited. You should use it as an example for adding more material. Read WP:CITE and WP:V - any editor may remove uncited material at any time. The kama sutra is not pertinant to a specific professional massage modality, but I will add it myself as background to the fully cited article that should only be added to , not replaced with rubbish like you are. —Hanuman Das 15:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, now I know you have little idea what your writing about. Tantra is one of many stains involving the principles of 'kama'. In fact, so broad is the category of 'kama' that a very thin line divides the concept of the erotic from the esoteric i.e. the bhakti' (devotional ) and 'tantric' (ritualistic) traditions. Please, my goodness, whoever believes that tantra massage was developed in the 1980's is certainly a few M&M's short of a pound! And, by the way, kamasutra is NOT a sex manual! Contrary to popular belief, the Kamasutra is not oriental erotica or pornographic literature. It elucidates the means to attain "kama", or the third purusharth of human life.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.112.120.177 (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

Neither is it a tantra and it has never been included among any list of tantras. Thus to call any massage in it tantric would be a misnomer. Same with tantric massage, of course, but the infomation is sourced and must remain in the article. If you wish to dispute it, you must add cited information to the article to do so. —Hanuman Das 02:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Any self respecting practitioner of tantra knows that your efforts are simply to keep marketing Andro and his organization, which is designed to simply market the services of practitioners. Saying Andro invented tantric massage is like saying the pope invented religion. Your located in Germany or close to it, aren't you? So, how are you affilited with Andro's organization? Or, are you simply friends with one of their practitioners? I see that you have placed marketing lingo regarding Andro in numerous articles. Your marketing efforts here are quite transparent and will not be tolorated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.112.120.177 (talk) 03:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

As I said, I am not affiliated with anyone doing tantric massage. I am not located in Europe. Please stop promoting your massage studio in Austin, Texas, Mr. 70.112.120.177 (cpe-70-112-120-177.austin.res.rr.com). That's against WP policy. See WP:VANITY. Your article doesn't meet Wikipedia standards, and your site may not be linked to under Wikipedia policy as it is commercial. —Hanuman Das 05:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

EthericOne

My dear brothers and sisters, love and light to you in this moment. Certainly, tantra massage did not origiate from Joseph Kramer and the prostitute Annie Sprinkle! Their neo-tantric form of tantra massage is a Western version of a much older practice. Indeed, this subject will be difficult to parse. The fact is, there is no such thing as a "tantric massage" in the practice of tantra. That said, tantrikas have been practicing mutual touch/massage for hundreds of years. We do so to awaken the senses and to assist the practitioner to live in the moment. So, try as one may, there is no one person, group, or organization who created a "tantra massage". It is simply a ritual among hundreds that tantrikas do to live in the here and now, and live in love ... which is joy itself.

Dear EthericOne, as I wrote the entry was more or less a copy of the entry in the German Wikipedia, which was PR for the so called "Original Tantramassage" (and deleted after an editwar). And for some supporters of the method and many others in Germany, Joseph Kramer and Annie Sprinkle have given many ideas for tantric massage. The word "Tantramassage" is misleading and therefore I would prefer a deletion o the entry... I aggree with your statement: "The fact is, there is no such thing as a "tantric massage" in the practice of tantra." All the best, --Edi Goetschel 16:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. You wrote also: "... tantrikas have been practicing mutual touch/massage for hundreds of years." Have you any sources for this? --Edi Goetschel 10:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Beware of the German Tantramassage Association

As in the German Wikipedia: The Association understands the entry as PR media for his memebers. Everything else is deleted! --Edi Goetschel 11:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Edi, I have absolutely no connection with this organization, however, the content of the organization's website provides information on the subject at hand. It seems you possess distain for this organization. Are you a competitor? Bottom line is this: The website provides salient information on this subject and should be available to users.

Please see the discussion about the topic in the German Wikipedia. The information on the website of the association is PR and there are no sources that Andro is the founder of the so called Tantramassage. And yes, I'm a sort a competitor: I have a portal with information about Neo-Tantra. To say there is a connection between Tantrism or Neo-Tantra and the so called Tantramassage is a problem for many of the people who offers workshops in a context of self-development, because "Tantra" is not a sort of (sexual) service as a massage is. --Edi Goetschel 11:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Instead of Tantrapedia I added a link to another German website dedicated to "Tantramassage" with similar ideas of quality.

Eli, I agree with you about Andro. You also speak my mind about tantrism and neo-tantra. However, whether or not tantrism, neo-tantra, and tantramassage are connected ... or, how they are connected, is inmaterial to the subject at hand. The bottom line is providing information to Wikipedia users so they have a full picture of the subject. I invite you to allow users to make up their own mind about the subject. In addition, the site you posted is in German. So, unless it has an English version, it would seem best applied to the German Wilkipedia site.

P.S. Okay, I read your addition. This is okay for me. --Edi Goetschel 12:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Again and again, nothing than PR for the German Tantramassage Association

Again the entry was changed to a PR article for the German Tantramassage Associaton. In the meantime the article was deleted from the german Wikipedia because there are no sources (with exception of the website of the Association...). You can read the discussion about it at Wikipedia:Löschkandidaten/24. November 2006. It's an old story that the German Tantramassage Association, which has only a very small number of members, tries to define and represent what the so called Tantramassage is and invented a history about it that isn't true at all (Andro as inventor of this massage etc.). In the German speaking countries most of the so called Tantramassage is just a another word for a sort of prostitution. --Edi Goetschel 15:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the English language article. What the Tantric Massage Association say is cited and verifiable. You provide no sources or verification for your version of the article. WP:NPOV requires that both sides of the story be represented. WP:V requires that nothing be included which does not have a source. You are adding information that we only have your word for that it is true. That's not how Wikipedia works. Please provide the sources for every bit of information you add to the article so that other editors can evaluate the reliability of sources and verify that they say what you say that they say. These requirements are not unique to this article. They are Wikipedia-wide requirements and the fact that you will not conform to them makes it impossible for other editors to accept your version of the article. We must revert it back to a cited and verifiable version. Frater Xyzzy 16:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The citations are the ones of the German Tantramassage Association... So what's the problem?! Go for example to Tantrapedia with another version of the history of the so called Tantramassage. The word was used long before Andros' invention, for example in the alt.magick FAQ. And sure has the English language article to do with the German version: The first version was written by the same person... one of the founders of the Association. --Edi Goetschel 17:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is clearly yours. Clearly you have no reliable sources to cite. You need books, journals, reliable websites. You cannot use usenet, forums or blogs. Clearly there is a dispute, but I've searched the Internet for reliable sources for the "other side of the story" and can't find any. That's due diligence. If you know of sources that I don't, it's your responsibility to cite them when you add information to the article. Frater Xyzzy 17:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I don't read German, so provide English language sources please. Frater Xyzzy 17:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

1) If the Association cites the own PR, I can also cite myself. ;-) 2) Use Google and you will find a lot of information about "Tantramassage" which has in Germany and Switzerland in most cases more to do with the redlight district than a Guru and the definitions of his own obscure Association. And if you do not understand German... Sources are sources. Perhaps you try it with an only translator. --Edi Goetschel 18:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you can't cite yourself unless you are a published authority in the field. Even then, you must cite your published work. Wikipedia is based on sources. An incorporated association is a valid source. If you wish, you may add "according to" to any disputed statements in the article, but it still seems that you don't have any sources that support your claims. You might want to also read WP:LIVING as it seems you might be libelling a living person on a talk page without any credible source to back you up. Such potential libel should be removed from talk pages immediately. Frater Xyzzy 18:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The so called Tantramassage Association is not an incorporated association as you can learn from their website: The name is "Association" but it is a "Verein", which means a club. This is okay. But is this enough for an entry in the Wikipedia? Their definition is not common sense in the German speaking countries. If you are so much interested and engaged in a topic, that is discussed in Germany and Switzerland for a long time, why do you not accept German sources?! The topic was also discussed again and again in the German Wikipedia: Because there were no credible sources the entry was deleted. I think we can learn from decisions the Wikipedia community already has made... --Edi Goetschel 20:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is full of mistakes with no origin history and details provided. We would write another article that explains in detail. Micro369 (talk) 00:55, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Stubbs' book

You seem to have gotten some things backwards. It was Stubbs' book which was titled Erotic Massage, and it was published in 1999. See Amazon.com. Frater Xyzzy 18:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Frater Xyzzy, Amazon ist not the catalogue for looking for old books... You have to use a library catalogue or a website like Abebooks. Stubbs book Tantric Massage. An Illustrated Manual for Meditative Sexuality was published with this title 1992 (I think, it is the same book that was published before as Erotic Massage. The Touch of Love). --Edi Goetschel 20:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, the book seems to be self-published, which means it can't be used as a reference. I've listed it under "Further reading". Also, you are not allowed to "argue" for some case in an article, only present the facts. Thus, you can say that TMA has 13 members. You can't say "only" 13 members, etc. Frater Xyzzy 21:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, a "competitor's" commercial site in German cannot be used as a reference, and you can't use the existence of a book published in 1993 to "prove" that Andro didn't develop Tantra Massage in the 1980s. Frater Xyzzy 21:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia's no original research policy. You are not allowed to "prove" who invented Tantra Massage in the article. You must find a source that discusses the issue. Frater Xyzzy 21:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

So please proof that Andro has developed the massage in the 1980s! --Edi Goetschel 21:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't have to, I've cited a source which says so. A source, by the way, that you added to the article. Frater Xyzzy 21:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I undertstand, when you cite an internet source (a copy of another site), it's okay, when I cite an internet source it's wrong... --Edi Goetschel 21:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There are limitations on what you can cite for sources. You cannot use a commercial site (i.e. the site of an individual massage therapist selling his or her services). You cannot use blogs, mailing lists, online forums, or usenet. See WP:V and WP:RS for details. Frater Xyzzy 21:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

But you use a commercial site! The German Tantramassage Association is a commercial site (as I explained before: the named their club Association). There is no argument against a commercial Association. But please give also the competitors a chance. ;-) --Edi Goetschel 22:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Not by Wikpedia definition. They don't sell anything directly on the site. That makes it an acceptible source. Any site that sells services, books, etc. cannot be used. The individual practitioner's sites could not be used, but the Association site appears to be intended to be strictly informational. Thus, it can be used. Frater Xyzzy 22:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, they sell really nothing? No services? Perhaps you have overlooked http://www.tantramassage-verband.de/de/anbieter.html... No workshops? Perhaps you have overlooked http://www.tantramassage-verband.de/de/ausbildung.html... --Edi Goetschel 22:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The first is simply a list of practitioners who do the selling on their website or at their location. The second is a press release. There is no "Buy it now" or call us at such-and-such a number to sign up. Again, it's an informational site which does no direct selling. Frater Xyzzy 22:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Edit war

Edi, Frater X is correct. You cannot argue from sources in the article. If someone says Andro did not create Tantra massage, you may cite that person if they made the statement in a reliable source. Otherwise, you may present citable facts only. Argumentation or attempt to sway the reader to your position is not permitted. Please read WP:NPOV. —Hanuman Das 21:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, you should be aware that you have broken the WP:3RR policy (I think). You may avoid getting blocked for it reverting yourself to Frater X's version. Otherwise you will likely be blocked for 24 hours. Hanuman Das 21:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hanuman Das, the topic was discussed several times in the German Wikipedia and the article twice deleted. It's a German topic, a German Association... And I think it's not relevant for the English Wikipedia. But if somebody is really interested in, please study the facts, although most of them are written in German... There are no reliable (English written) sources except some PR stories. I think it would be the best to delete the entry. --Edi Goetschel 22:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Essence of Tantric Sexuality

Wow, Frater Xyzzy! But Andro is not mentioned. :-( --Edi Goetschel 22:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It's also published in 2006 so you can't claim they came up with it first :-) It does have a whole chapter on the subject. Frater Xyzzy 22:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That's okay... This thing will be reinvented again and again. :-) --Edi Goetschel 23:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, of course, it has no basis in the tantras and is simply a misappropriation of terminology. Thus I have changed my "vote" to merge with Erotic massage. Frater Xyzzy 23:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That's the point: I agree completly with you! And there is another reaseon... What has happened in the German Wikipedia? The "invented" new tantric massages like Yoni-Massage to have an own entry. --Edi Goetschel 17:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

about Edi Goetschel and his personal war against Tantra Massage

I want to inform you about the person Edi Goetschel. For some reason he is very much against Tantra Massage and tries to make it miserabel whereever he can. It was mainly the work of Edi Goetschel to destroy the German Articel with similiar arguments like he uses here.

There is a growing scene of people who work with Tantra Massage in Germany and Switzerland. These people use the massage concept of Andro, who is a very experienced Tantra and Massage teacher - he was the first person who used this "Tantra Massage Concept" ! Out of his students developed some very motivated practitioners who made his work more and more popular. Tantramassage practitioners do not want to be mixed up with prostitutes! The Original Tantramassage in the style of Andro has a very clear structure and clear borders, sexual exchange is not allowed.

It is not right to merge this articel with Erotic massage because Erotic massage is not specified and can be anything. --Kaukaukau 20:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Kaukaukau, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a messageboard! If there are any sources, that proof that Andro is the inventor of the tantric massage, I will accept it. Till now he is only the inventor of the "Original Tantramassage" (as a brand), but not at all of the so called Tantramassage. It's the same as in the German Wikipedia: No arguments except there is a personal war... But it is a crusade from the "Association" against all people which do not belief in Andros fiction! Perhaps you know his publication about the concept you mentioned. Its title is Berühre mich. Anregungen für erotische Massagen (tranlated: Touch me. Inspirations for erotic massages). And you pretend Andros massage has nothing to do with erotic massage... Also it is not true that tantric massage has nothing to do with prostitution. But this is another story. --Edi Goetschel 23:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

confirm deleted?

This page was nominated for deletion a long time ago - and it largely inaccurate - including the name "tantra massage" vs tantric massage - so just wondering if this page is actually deleted - and if so - perhaps should not be part of the "easy edit" learning /tutorials? thoughts? thank you M.c.vons (talk) 09:50, 25 May 2023 (UTC)