Talk:Symbols of grouping

New Article

The discussion of symbols of grouping in the article Order of Operations suggested the need for a new article on this subject. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:52, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Square brackets

The correct name of these symbols: [ ] is brackets. In grade school, some teachers call brackets "square brackets" to help students remember which symbol of grouping is which. But the "square" is descriptive, and I have never seen it used in a major book or article by a mathematician.

There are, however, people who think what they are taught in grade school is real mathematics. One person is trying to insist that the usage "square bracket" is standard. This person said about my edit, stating that the name of the symbols is "brackets", is: "Wrong. See the next paragraph." But there are no references in that next paragraph, just needless repetition of the phrase "square bracket".

There is one claim in the article Bracket that the British usage is "square bracket". The cited reference for this is an old book: Smith, John. The Printer's Grammar p. 84. I looked up that reference. It calls the symbols "Crotchets". The phrase square bracket does not appear on the cited page.

Please discuss this on talk pages before inserting "square" before the word "bracket". Rick Norwood (talk) 11:05, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

You have already been told you are wrong. It is only in American English that "brackets" means [ ]. In most varieties of English, "brackets" means ( ). As such, it is complete nonsense in particular to use "brackets" to mean [ ] as opposed to ( ).

If the references fail to confirm what is being stated, the appropriate course of action is to find references that do confirm what is stated, not to call native English speakers liars. — Smjg (talk) 23:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

"But there are no references in that next paragraph" – true, but so what? We don't need references just in order to use unambiguous language.

Anyhow, here's a reference to start you off: [1]

— Smjg (talk) 23:56, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for finding a reference. In Wikipedia being "told you are wrong" is not considered authoritative.

As I've said, the use of "square brackets" is often used in learning situations, not used in more formal writing. So, your use of the Oxford Learners Dictionary, instead of the Oxford English Dictionary, is an interesting choice. But note that your own source supports my claim that in American usage it is usually just "bracket":

"square bracket noun

/ˈskweə brækɪt/

/ˈskwer brækɪt/ (especially British English) (North American English usually bracket) [usually plural]

   ​either of a pair of marks, [ ], placed at the beginning and end of extra information in a text, especially comments made by an editor"

Of course, the quote above only refers to the use for editorial comments, and does not mention the mathematical use.

So, let's look at the source you quoted, which is for just "bracket", not "square bracket". Your quote does not mention "square bracket" at all. Your source does say that in English usage, "bracket" means the symbol also called parenthesis. But your source also adds that a bracket is called "also parenthesis North American English or formal". In other words, this symbol () is not only called "parenthesis" in North American usage but also in more formal usage. It seems to me that in Wikipedia, in mathematical articles, especially in more advanced mathematical articles, more formal English is better than sticking the modifier "square" in everywhere.

But let's turn to a more authoritative source, The Oxford English Dictionary.

There, the only definition of the noun "bracket" that mentions mathematics is definition 5 a:

"5. a. One of two marks of the form [ ] or ( ), and in mathematical use also {}, used for enclosing a word or number of words, a portion of a mathematical formula, or the like, so as to separate it from the context; in typography, esp. applied to ‘square brackets’ (formerly called crotchets), the ‘round brackets’ being designated ‘parentheses’."

So, while all three symbols of grouping in mathematics can be called "brackets", the word "bracket", especially in typography, means "square brackets" while the "round brackets" are designated "parentheses".

I don't mind an occasional use of the phrase "square bracket" for clarity, if there is good reason for it, but to stick in in all over the place just clutters up the article. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

What's your evidence that I have a copy of the OED to hand (or a subscription to the online edition) but decided not to refer to it and to use OLD instead???

Furthermore, that "bracket" means one thing "in typography" and another thing in everday (non-American) usage is all the more reason the term is ambiguous. And nothing you've said changes what I said earlier:

As such, it is complete nonsense in particular to use "brackets" to mean [ ] as opposed to ( ).

Surely observing WP:COMMONALITY – in particular the 4th bullet point therein – is more important than avoiding clutter. That said, I'm sure there's another way to do it which would achieve the best of both worlds.... — Smjg (talk) 15:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)