Talk:Stefan Nemanja/Archive 1

Archive 1

2004

This is really a stub, there should be much more to be said about the founder of the medieval Serbian state. I read parts of http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/chapter5.htm and it includes a section "Stefan Nemanja creates an independent Serbian state" which has numerous footnote references could be easily used to fill up this article. --Joy [shallot] 09:41, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It has been said in the article that his name Stefan means "crowned" but it is not mentioned in what language. It is not Serbian definitely but I think it came from Hungarian which were very strong in that time in Serbia and had grate influence —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shukalo83 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Stephanus means "crowned" in Greek, Hungary then took the nomenclature from Serbia, which had influence over Hungary in some parts. Look at some Hungarian words that are serbian in origin like vitez, kovač, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.191.247.185 (talk) 08:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

On images

Someone should place this image into the article as soon as he finds the time for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PaxEquilibrium (talk • contribs) 16:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Language

Stop adding the Montenegrin language.

1) Constitution of Montenegro in its article 9 says that official language in Montenegro is Serbian. At the moment Montenegrin government has its site in 'Montenegrin' but that is understandable in the situation, and may as well be changed after the next elections, for example. That's too shakey to be taken for granted.

2) None of the major cultural institutions adopted Montenegrin language (check sites of the Academy and University of Montenegro, with specific section for Serbian language, not Montenegrin). Simply because Montenegrin language is stil in the proces of being invented by 10 people around Academy of Duklja for their own private purposes.

3) Studens and pupils are not taught Montenegrin in schools. They did learn Serbian until last year, when it was switched to 'mother tongue' (?) marking one name for all the Montenegrin, Serbian, Croatian, Muslim and Bosniak students. And this also can be changed after the elections, so it doesn't hold the water as a fact taken seriously.

For all this above, all your changes in this direction are nothing more but an obvious and pathetic attempt at provocation. I understand that as an Albanian you dislike Serbs by default, but as long as the standards above are not fulfilled, I will keep correcting the mess you are deliberatly making in this artice. PajaBG 18:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Carski san

Nemanja's title " Carski san " is not corectly translated in english . " San " here means ranc . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.43 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

William of Tyre?

Concerning the following sentence from the current article:

Wilhelm of Tyre, a member of this Saxon force wrote about the Serbs as being an uneducated people, without any discipline, resident to hills and forests, unskilled with agriculture. They're rich with small and large flocks of cattle, milk, honey and wask.

This ought to be a reference to the historian William of Tyre, surely: does anyone know? And what's wask? Andrew Dalby 15:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what wask is but William wasn't a Saxon and was not a member of that expedition. He probably heard about it from Byzantine sources. Adam Bishop 05:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...actually, I can't find this in William of Tyre at all. Perhaps someone confused him with another William? It should be removed unless someone can give a better reference. Adam Bishop 23:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for looking. I will reinstate the original Wilhelm of Tyre (though I have no idea whether such a person existed) and add a fact template. At least the wask has now become wax, which makes sense. Andrew Dalby 08:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed. That's the same William of Tyre. It was just a change in translation. Additionally, "wask" is "wax". HolyRomanEmperor 15:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed where? We weren't disputing that "Wilhelm" means "William". Did you find the quote in William of Tyre? If so, where? Adam Bishop 20:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the citation is in almost every Yugoslav book which deals with Stephen Nemanya. However, I have no confirmation that that's the very same William of Tyre aside from - where there two famous Williams of Tyre that were historians? At the sources part, to the bottom, Ćorović, Vladimir (2005). ИЛУСТРОВАНА ИСТОРИЈА СРБА, Book II, Politika. can be seen, for instance. That's the "History of the Serbs". a view in the Serbian language is available at the external links: History of the Serbs - Third Period - Stephen Nemanya. Other example is the Holy bloodline of Stefan Nemanja by Zeljko Fajfric, as well in Serbo-Croatian. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no other historian named William of Tyre...is it possible that Viljem Tirski means something else? (I know no Serbo-Croatian.) I see that Corovic didn't say where it is from either. If you have access to all the other books about Nemanja, can you see if any of them give a real reference? Adam Bishop 20:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Aha...it's book 20, chapter 4. I don't know why I couldn't find that in the English translation, but it's in the Latin. I think I was confused by the way it is presented here; it is not connected to the Saxons. William was part of an embassy to Constantinople, while the emperor was away fighting a Serbian revolt. Adam Bishop 20:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

"Viljem Tirski" cannot mean anything else in Serbian (Serbo-Croatian). Wait a minute - did you just confirm that you found the exact citation in Latin? --HolyRomanEmperor 14:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, here: Est autem populus incultus, absque disciplina, montium et silvarum habitator, agriculturae ignarus: gregibus et armentis copiosi, lacte, caseo, butyro, carnibus, melle et cera uberius abundantes. I'll have to look at the English again to be more certain, but that chapter is not connected to the Saxon expedition. Adam Bishop 18:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to all. I have revised the translation and removed the mistaken statement that William took part in the expedition (he learned about the Serbs because he was in Constantinople in 1179). Andrew Dalby 18:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Glad we could clear this out - I'm going to re-read the article and (preferably) expand it with info that I missed. I invite you to observe my editing and contribute yourselves; I feel that this article is getting closer and closer to a Featured article status. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

wask VOSAK in serbian means wax;) maybe some old german form of wax??

The man speaks of Sorbs(German Serbs also called "wends") inhabiting Bohemia and not of Serbs living in the Balkan Region. see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

Wow, what a bunch of experts, and people actually rely on what you write ( slaps himself in a forehead ), no wonder why the article is in such a mess. Here is the passage from William of Tyre's History about the Serbia, it took me whole 2 minutes to find it:

Detinebatur porro eo temporis articulo imperator in Servia quae regio montosa et nemoribus obsita, difficiles habens aditus, inter Dalmatiam et Hungariam et Illyricum media jacet, rebellantibus Serviis et confidentibus de introituum ad se angustiis et de impervia eorum regione. Habent vetustae traditiones hunc omnem populum, ex deportatis et deputatis exsilio, qui in partibus illis ad secanda marmora et effodienda metalla damnati fuerant, originem habuisse, et inde etiam nomen traxisse servitutis. Est autem populus incultus, absque disciplina, montium et silvarum habitator, agriculturae ignarus: gregibus et armentis copiosi, lacte, caseo, butyro, carnibus, melle et cera uberius abundantes. Hi magistratus habent, quos suppanos vocant; et domino imperatori aliquando serviunt; aliquando de montibus et silviegredientes, [p. 0783A] omnem circa se regionem, ut sunt audaces et bellicosi viri, depopulantur. Ob haec ergo intolerabilia vicinis eorum maleficia, ingressus erat ad eos in virtute multa et innumera manu dominus imperator. Quibus subactis et praecipuo eorum principe mancipato, redeunti domino imperatori, post multiplices viarum labores, in provincia Pelagonia, in civitate quae vulgo dicitur Butella, occurrimus, juxta illam antiquam et domini felicissimi et invictissimi et prudentis Augusti patriam, domini Justiniani civitatem, videlicet Justiniam primam, quae vulgo hodie dicitur Acreda; ubi a domino imperatore honorifice suscepti, benigne et imperiali clementia tractati, legationis et viae causam, formamque pactorum diligenter exposuimus; quae omnia laeta mente [p. 0783B] suscipiens et gratanter amplectens, quod praeordinatum, fuerat approbavit Praebitis ergo corporaliter hinc inde juramentis, ejus auctoritate interposita, confirmata sunt quae prius per nuntios fuerunt ordinata. Receptis ergo imperialibus litteris, pactorum formam ex integro continentibus et consummata feliciter legatione, munificentissime de more solito dimissi, Kal. Octobr. iter ad reditum arripuimus.

William of Tyre, book 20, chapter 4 [1], text from Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol. 201, Paris 1855.

The passage refers to departure of emperor Manuel I Comnenos in the war against the Serbia in 1168. William was personally present at the meeting of embassy of king Amalrich and emperor Manuel in the city of Butela (Bitolj ) on emperor's return form the expedition. I presume that all you experts are proficient in Latin so I won't translate the passage. And for the smart ass who mentioned Sorbs I have a question: since when Sorbs lived in Serbia which is placed between Hungary and Dalmatia and in the middle of Illyricum ( in Servia quae ... inter Dalmatiam et Hungariam et Illyricum media jacet )and for what reason would emperor Manuel cross through half of Europe, including hostile Hungary and Germany, to fight this people? This is rhetorical question, if you don't realize it. --Clanedstino (talk) 09:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Remove the drawing

The drawing is pretty lame and needless in an encyclopedic article. I suggest its removal. --PaxEquilibrium 22:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

disambig

Something more should be done to disambiguate between this man and St. Simeon of stylites. The two names are very similar 63.229.221.138 03:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Orthodox vs. Serbian Orthodox

I don't think that he could be "Serbian Orthodox" when there was not a separate Serbian Orthodox church while he lived. I would say that he was simply "Orthodox"; Serbian church became autonomous a century later. 80.240.144.2 (talk) 10:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm born 1114, died in 1199, and lived for 90 years? 1199 - 1114 = 85 By the way, the year 1114 is highly disputed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.38.29 (talk) 00:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

His son Rastislav Nemanjic (Saint Sava) founded the "Serbian" Orthodox church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.82.137.30 (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

living decendents of stefan nemanja

i have heard of direct decendents of this family living today. how come there is nothing about them? i have looked everywhere and the web sites that i have come across say there are none that are living today. it sounds hocas pocas to me! how come nobody is looking into this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by

you sir are an idiot75.148.101.162 (talk) 04:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Direct descendants of the serbian imperial dynasty would be known. The last direct descendant of the tsars died in the 15th century. There are however people that share their blood, but the amount of people is so vast that nobody really has any interest in it. The family as well as other noble families of that time are progenitors of serb highland clans from which 90% of Serbs descend from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.191.247.185 (talk) 08:26, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Name

Who translated Nemanja name in the article?! It is known that the name means The One Who Does not Have in Serbian. Tzuppy 15:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• It may have that connotation in modern Serbian (as a folk etymology), but do you have any sources indicating that's the actual origin of the name? I'm doubtful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.255.118 (talk) 11:00, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I changed name of article from Stefan Nemanja to Stefan Nemanja of Serbia, because it is so in all the other articles about monarchs. --Aca Srbin (talk) 21:17, 03 February 2011 (CET)

There was no Serbia in 12th century. Nemanja's state was called Raška (Rascia). Vanjagenije (talk) 11:35, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The same situation is with Stefan Radoslav of Serbia, Stephen Vladislav I of Serbia, Mutimir of Serbia and Vlastimir of Serbia . Also, in this article we have this:

And this:

--Aca Srbin (talk) 15:35, 04 February 2011 (CET)

yesterday's copyedit

I performed a fairly major copyedit of this article yesterday, although I had intended to do so for the article about his son, Saint Sava, which has similar if not more severe problems and which I hope others improve by the next time I happen upon it (probably next year). For what it's worth, I worked from a reputable biography of St. Sava, and would have been more comfortable changing some of the anglicizations, especially the "Grand Prince" bit and references to his monastic name as Simeon where my source too used Symeon (which helps distinguish him from IMHO more famous Simeons and Simons). I'm writing here not because I claim expertise in this area, but to acknowledge the political sensitivities which IMHO led to this article's fairly blatant problems. Frankly, I would prefer that my edits not be reversed as having the wrong tone of being insufficiently hagiographic. FYI, I'd rather have taken out the William of Tyre quote entirely, because I don't believe Nemanja was in Constantinople at the time and I don't believe such ethnic stereotypes add to the article, but defer to the lengthy discussion on this page by merely adding a qualifier.Jweaver28 (talk) 11:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

As to the William of Tyre quotation, Clanedstino above, who put an abrupt end to that discussion, says that it relates to c. 1168, not 1179, and that William was at Bitolj, which is much closer to Serbia than Constantinople is! These points are true. No one at the time reacted to them, maybe because of the wall of text. The quotation and its context are therefore a bit more relevant than our article makes them appear. I'll correct the article. I agree with Jweaver28 that the ethnic stereotypes don't add much, but the next few words, which I've just added based on the Latin text above, confirm the title Župan, arguably more relevant to Stefan than the rest of the quotation. I'd be happy if someone with access to an English translation or to secondary sources could confirm or correct that date "1168" and anything else I've just inserted. Andrew Dalby 15:09, 15 January 2015 (UTC)