Talk:Stan Storimans

Other reports

Anonymous editor from Georgia (country) using IP address 93.177.151.101 reverted my change that mentions other reports on the incident twice already. For some reason, only HWR report, which represents official view of the Georgian government is considered trustworthy, and Reuters, which report does not confirm to the official Georgian position, is called unreliable. Please stop reverting changes that represent NPOV, otherwise I am going to ask for formal mediation in this case and for locking down editing of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuntz (talk • contribs) 18:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Your claim that the respectable watchdog such as the Human Rights Watch "represents official view of the Georgian government" is ridiculous. Can you prove it? Reuters' report is dated to Aug. 12[1]. It is just a journalist's report while the HRW has a fact-finding mission on the ground which conducted an investigation and published its report three days after the incident:

"Human Rights Watch researchers have uncovered evidence that Russian aircraft dropped cluster bombs in populated areas in Georgia, killing at least 11 civilians and injuring dozens, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called upon Russia to immediately stop using cluster bombs, weapons so dangerous to civilians that more than 100 nations have agreed to ban their use...

Human Rights Watch said Russian aircraft dropped RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions, on the town of Ruisi in the Kareli district of Georgia on August 12, 2008. Three civilians were killed and five wounded in the attack. On the same day, a cluster strike in the center of the town of Gori killed at least eight civilians and injured dozens, Human Rights Watch said. Dutch journalist Stan Storimans was among the dead. Israeli journalist Zadok Yehezkeli was seriously wounded and evacuated to Israel for treatment after surgery in Tbilisi. An armored vehicle from the Reuters news agency was perforated with shrapnel from the attack."[2]

Please note that the Reuters crew themselves came under attack. It was not so easy for them to understand what really happened on that day. Again, the HRW is not just media outlet. It is a respectable human rights watchdog with a fact-finding mission in the area.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 05:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/09/02/georgi19737.htm -- HRW admits mistake
Human rights watch was mistaken in at least half of the allegations against the Russian forces. The submunition found in Shindisi and Pkhvenisi were actually Israeli made M85 bomblets (admittedly used by Georgian forces) and not the Russian PTAB-2.5 submunition. One has to ask, how one can confuse the bomblets found there[3] with the Russian PTAB-2.5[4], they look somehow different, isn't it?--139.30.40.11 (talk) 16:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Third Opinion

None of the news sources cited link cluster bombs to Storimans' death. HRW is an advocacy group, and their take on the events should be reported as that: their take on the events. Jclemens (talk) 06:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I don't know what you mean by "advocacy group" but HRW does not represent the official position of the government of Georgia as claimed by the certain Kuntz above. As for the news sources reporting the use of cluster bombs, please see [5], [6], [7], [8], etc:

"Mines Action Canada, in solidarity with the 300 other organizations worldwide that make up the Cluster Munition Coalition (CMC), strongly condemns Russia's use of cluster bombs in Georgia just three months after 107 nations agreed to ban the weapon... On the same day, a cluster strike in the centre of the town of Gori left at least eight civilians dead and dozens injured. Dutch journalist Stan Storimans was among the dead."Mines Action Canada.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 06:40, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It does not matter if HRW represents anyone's views or not. Their report can not be used as an evidence. No one knows qualifications of the researchers involved or their affiliations. To me, Reuters report looks as credible. Initial report that was published on Aug 12th [9] does not even say what the cause was. This report was later clarified [10] after some analysis was done and mortar fire was said to be the cause. Why not give another source from a leading news agency?

BTW, have you noticed that I did not remove HRW report, and just added reference to another source, while you kept deleting everything that does not fit your worldview? Living in a society without freedom of the press hampered your ability to accept different opinions my friend. Kuntz (talk) 11:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Need

Is there really any need for this article at all? Does it not exist purely because of the recent conflict in the Caucasus? Is this not (no offence to the man's relatives and such) pretty pointless to have an article on a man based on one, minor, thing that has happened in said unfortunate war? ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 06:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Journalists_killed_while_covering_military_conflicts --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 07:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The Dutch page has been deleted as a result of this. This person has been deemed unencyclopedical, because his death was his only noteworthy fact. Kweniston (talk) 11:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Nice. -- megA (talk) 20:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Dutch government appearently thinks it was not "minor incident". There are also merely 45,700 google hits for this "unnoteworthy" person. --Putinjugend (talk) 08:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The Dutch wikipedia is a joke at the moment so I wouldn't pay much attention to it. Stan Storimans was a noteworthy cameraman and journalist, who was well known by famous dutch figures including our prime minister, so yes I think he's noteworthy. Grey Fox (talk) 08:00, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

In a second try Dutch Wikipedia decided to keep the page now as an encyclopedical subject. Agora (talk) 08:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)