Talk:Spanish dialects and varieties

[h]

Is the "weak" Latin American pronunciation of j, g really always [h], the same sound as in English house? I'm no expert in Spanish, I don't speak it, and quite frankly I'm not often exposed to it at all. But I used to know someone from Colombia and their [h] seemed to have much more friction, actually sounding a lot like [ħ] or [ʜ], the pharyngeal consonant sounds known in Arabic, if somewhat weaker. (It was definitely not [x] or [χ], I know these sounds from my own native language, but it didn't seem to be [h] either.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.206.148.137 (talk) 03:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Probably you are right and a mere [h]/[x] division is simplistic. We should find a good, authoritative source to fix that. --Jotamar (talk) 18:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Is anyone going to update the missing link in this section?Psantos4 (talk) 00:32, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

There may also be a velar [x] that has a weak friction. A formant analysis can show that friction to be velar, rather than glottal or pharyngeal. That is the case in Serbo-Croatian and increasingly also in Polish. To call that glottal is just false, and there is no glottal class in Spanish phonology. /x/ is phonologically velar. I agree that the nature of Spanish /x/ is probably an underresearched phenomenon.

⟨h⟩ may also not be always the correct choice for the 'aspirated' /s/. Per Salvadoran Spanish#Phonetics and phonology, an intermediate, [θ]-like fricative (most probably the voiceless alveolar non-sibilant fricative with a laminal articulation, much like the Icelandic /θ/ but probably weaker) is an alternative to [h] in Salvadoran Spanish. I've definitely heard it used in Muñeca Brava, by multiple actors (who obviously speak Rioplatense Spanish and have nothing to do with El Salvador). So both /x/ and /s/ are underresearched. Sol505000 (talk) 11:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

There definitely are different degrees of constriction possible for [x], and Donny Vigil's dissertation on the Spanish of Taos, northern New Mexico distinguishes between a strong and a weak [x]. Also I added in the info about the [θ]-like fricative in Salvadoran Spanish. Brogan, in his thesis, transcribes that sound as [s^θ], and he says that pronunciation is the same as the ceceo studied in Andalusia and documented elsewhere. Erinius (talk) 00:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Open-mid vowels

I've rewritten this section to focus on the vowel opening in eastern Andalusian, because that is where one dialect differs from the others with regard to the open-mid vowels. I've also given it a source citation, which it didn't have previously. The replaced text alluded to the Andalusian phenomenon in its first sentence, but the rest of the section referred to "all dialects". Phenomena that affect all dialects are not relevant to this article. Some of the replaced text's statements about the distribution of relatively open mid vowels (in all dialects) were controversial (in disagreement with, for example, Navarro Tomás, sections 52 and 59, and with D'Introno/Teso/Weston—Fonética y fonología actual del español—pp. 187 and 193)—but since the all-dialects phenomena are irrelevant to this article, this is not the place to discuss those controversies. Hualde's phonetic transcription of libro and libre puts a diacritic like an inverted T below the final o and e; I was able to duplicate it on the e, but not on the o. Kotabatubara (talk) 16:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

The section title is inaccurate in my opinion, what we have is a double set of vowels (open/closed or perhaps tense/lax, etc.) which some authors assign to all five vowels, not just a, e, o. However I won't change further the section until I find a source. --Jotamar (talk) 17:21, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Word-initial <r>: free variation?

The sentence quoted below seems wrong. Can we have some documentation or delete it? "There is a [sic] free variation in word-initial positions [sic] (only after a pause or consonant-ending words), following l, n, or s, and in lexical derivations: [r ~ ɾ]ey, [r ~ ɾ]opa, al[r ~ ɾ]ededor, en[r ~ ɾ]iquecer, en[r ~ ɾ]ollar, hon[r ~ ɾ] a, Is[r ~ ɾ] ael, ab[r ~ ɾ]ogado, sub[r ~ ɾ]ayar, ciudad[r~ ɾ]ealeño.[citation needed]" Kotabatubara (talk) 16:06, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

I've removed the content in question. It's been uncited for more than a year and a half, so editors have had more than enough opportunity to provide documentation. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 16:41, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

"Middle" America? No, sir. "Central" America

The article incorretctly uses the term "Middle America" instead of "Central America" in section 3.1.1, "Second person singular", when it says "(in parts of Middle America, especially, Costa Rica and Colombia)" as opposed to "(in parts of"Central America, especially, Costa Rica and Colombia)". --Fandelasketchup (talk) 13:29, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

See Middle America (Americas). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 17:19, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Then why do most English maps prefer the term "Central America"? --Fandelasketchup (talk) 09:59, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Because they see value in dividing the Americas up into North, South, and Central. That has no bearing on whether using a different term to refer to a different regional grouping is incorrect. It's not. It is incorrect, however, to refer to Colombia as part of Central America. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 16:38, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Catalan "Dialect"

It really looks almost offensive to have put Catalan on the Dialects section, I'm guessing that it refers to the Catalan characteristics in spoken Spanish, but Jesus Christ putting it the way it's put is a crime in Catalonia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GuillemVS (talk • contribs) 19:48, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. --Jotamar (talk) 07:10, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Sets of variants

So, the current classifications of sets of variants are unsourced. I've found a few different classifications we could use instead. Pedro Henríquez Ureña describes Latin American Spanish as being divided into 5 different zones: The Rio de la Plata (including Paraguay); Chile; the Andes; a Mexican zone including Mexico, Central America, and the American southwest; and the Caribbean. I found this in his El Español en Santo Domingo, from 1940. Then I have two classifications of Latin American Spanish into 10 regions from John M. Lipski, both of which are broadly similar. The first is from "Geographical and Social Varieties of Spanish: An Overview" in 2012, and is apparently based on the classification used in his book Latin American Spanish. The classifications are:

• Mexico (except for coastal areas) and southwestern United States;
• Caribbean region: Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Panama, Caribbean coast of Colombia and Venezuela, Caribbean coast of Mexico, and also Mexico’s Pacific coast;
• Guatemala, parts of the Yucatan, and Costa Rica;
• El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua;
• Colombia (interior) and neighboring highland areas of Venezuela;
• Pacific coast of Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru;
• Andean regions of Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, northwest Argentina, and northeast Chile;
• Chile;
• Paraguay, northeastern Argentina, and eastern Bolivia;
• Argentina (except for extreme northwest and northeast) and Uruguay.

In "Dialects of Spanish and Portuguese" from The Handbook of Dialectology in 2018 he gives the following classification: "Mexico and Guatemala; Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua; Costa Rica; the Caribbean basin (Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, northern Colombia, and Panama); the interior of Colombia; the Pacific coast of Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru; the highlands of Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, and northwestern Argentina; Chile; Paraguay, eastern Bolivia and northeastern Argentina; central and southern Argentina and Uruguay." The only big difference between the two is that in one of them he groups Guatemala with Costa Rica and in the other he groups it with Mexico. The 5-zone classification ignores the Pacific coasts of Colombia, Ecuador and Peru, and all of these classifications ignore the Amazon.

As for classifications of Spanish dialects in Spain, both Lipski sources I have describe the main division as being north vs south. Lipski (2012) gives 11 different dialect regions, not including the Canary Islands, while Lipski 2018 gives north (including Madrid and Castile-La Mancha apparently), south (Extremadura, Andalucia, Murcia), and Canaries.

Does anyone have any preferences as to which classification systems we should use? Any input? Erinius (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

The Henríquez Ureña classification is pretty old, and in general the classifications of Spanish dialects made by Latin Americans tend to be centered around their country; Lipski seems to be the best we have. About Spain, while dialectologists resist to explicitly say that Madrid is southern dialect, all classifications are useless. --Jotamar (talk) 03:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Fair, Lipski's seem to be the best for Latin America. I'll put his in there, though I feel like merging all of Central America into a single group and mentioning in the list that s-aspiration is more common in El Salvador Honduras and Nicaragua. What do you think about that? And I'm not too familiar with different Peninsular Spanish varieties. I guess I could mention more explicitly that the main divide is north-south and source that. Erinius (talk) 07:36, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Right, Guatemala is a highland dialect, just like Mexico, and Costa Rica, or rather central Costa Rica, seems to be quite particular. In Spain one has to choose between the reality and the sources. For example the divide between north and south used to be quite marked, but the northern dialects are close to disappearing, and for that reason the divide will soon vanish; however that is unsourceable. Another example, the dialects in Granada and Murcia are closer than those in Granada and Seville, but the notion of one Andalusian dialect is too strong to be challenged. Cheers. --Jotamar (talk) 00:05, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

As you can see by now, I ended up putting Central America as a single bullet point on this page. I could mention higher rates of s-aspiration in the central countries and lower s reduction + assibilated R in CR and Guatemala in the list on this page, but anyone who clicks on Central American Spanish would see that and I don't feel the dialect list is the place to put that kind of information.

As for Spain, I don't think you have to just ignore reality. I mean, I've seen it written in citable sources that s-aspiration is spreading to northern cities, and I've seen writing on internal diversity in Andalusian Spanish as well as on similar phenomenon in Eastern Andalusian and Murcian Spanish. The issue is I don't think the mere presence of s-aspiration is a huge dividing line in Spain by itself at least, but it's not really about what your or I think. Erinius (talk) 04:29, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Divisions of Peninsular Spanish

So, we all know that the main, especially phonetic, division in Peninsular Spanish is between northern and southern varieties, and that at the same time these dialect boundaries are fuzzy at best. The thing is, right now I have two sources which give big-picture divisions of Peninsular Spanish. One, Lipski 2018, has a binary division between the southern varieties of Andalusia, Murcia and Extremadura, and northern varieties (everywhere else). The other one, from Introducción a la lingüística hispánica , divides (monolingual) Peninsular Spanish into three regions - a conservative northern-central one north of Madrid, an intermediary area, and Andalusian. On the page Peninsular Spanish I mentioned both divisions, and the more thorough one from Lipski 2012, but I'm wondering what we should do on this page. Just mention both? Mention (what I assume to be) the principal isoglosses/criteria used in each classification? Erinius (talk) 01:47, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

What is the basis for the Lipski division? I guess it is: Avoiding confrontation with the Spanish philological establishment. Lipski is a specialist in Latin American dialects and he's also studied minority dialects and creoles in other parts of the world, I don't think he's ever researched Spain. For me, it's obvious that any dialect division that includes Madrid in North is automatically rubbish. I already told you, the sources about dialects in Spain are conditioned by the prevalent ideologies and are unreliable. --Jotamar (talk) 23:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

From what I can tell the closest Lipski's gotten to researching Spanish in Spain is Gibraltar, lol. Anyway, thanks for your comment, it made me think about the issue a bit more. I assume the basis for Lipski's binary classification is the handling of final consonants, which is reasonable enough. But there really is no clean division (as Lipski himself admits) and Madrid itself is pretty clearly an intermediary dialect zone - it has both the "Madriz" and "verdaz" thing shared with provinces to the north, and not just s-aspiration but the same "ejque" found in the former capital of Toledo. So it makes sense to (as the Introducción does - you can find it here and gain access through the Wikipedia Library) mention a really conservative northern region, the super-innovatory southern region of Andalusia, and an intermediate zone in between. It gives a clearer overview of the situation and has a lesser chance of misleading readers. Erinius (talk) 09:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I should also say - the tripartite map from the Introducción looks a lot like this map, which the page already uses - and this map, which I'm pretty sure you made. Makes sense cause the isoglosses are the same. Erinius (talk) 09:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Dubbing

"Currently, films not originally in Spanish (usually Hollywood productions) are dubbed separately into two accents: one for Spain, except Canary Islands, and one for the Americas (using a neutral standardized accent without regionalisms); there are two accents used for the Americas: Mexican for the most of Americas and Canary Islands and Rioplatense for Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay" This is not clear to me. Does this mean that there are a total of three accents used when dubbing a film into Spanish? Spanish, Mexican and Rioplatense? But first, it says two accents. So I am confused. @ 62.63.246.219 (talk) 20:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

That wording was introduced recently by user:FILWISE and clearly needs a source. --Jotamar (talk) 21:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Palatal fricative symbol used for palatal approximant

The symbol for the voiced palatal fricative is used for the palatal approximant. 2600:100F:B1A1:26A1:E02E:5BF2:3AD9:9A03 (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)