Talk:Soubrette

Revert on Comparisons

Got reverted after I added another link to a different vocal type, as follows:

• To hear dramatic coloratura soprano Diana Damrau as Susanna click on this link: Watch here

Not entirely sure why, as Diana Damrau is a dramatic coloratura soprano (as shown on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloratura_soprano ) and the link was correct. Any explanation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.161.31.103 (talk) 09:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

"Limitation myth"

I've moved the text of this section to this talk page because I think it needs a bit of discussion.

First, I'm not sure if this topic is of sufficient import to discuss in the article. I've been around professional vocalists, both popular and classical, and musicologists who focus on vocal music and I've never known any of them to have the opinion below. Among people who don't follow the technical points of vocal music, most I've met have never even heard the word "soubrette," so they certainly don't have an opinion about it.

It's true that whoever worked on this page before I showed up was apparently under the impression that soubrettes had limited ptich ranges, but I think I've made it quite explicit that that's not true. Finally, the whole section is rather overly defensive for an encyclopedia. It sounds rather personal.

Now, if consensus holds that this section should be put back in the article, it still needs to be cleaned up. It has some grammar problems, some possible factual problems (to me it implies that a soubrette can be an alto, which just isn't so), and of course there's the defensive thing. --George 23:21, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Some, particularly popular music enthusiasts are under the mistaken impression that there is a limitation or a badge of shame to be worn when classified as a soubrette. The classification soubrette is aligned with vocal weight, not fach. Like the countertenor, a soubrette is a voice type (lyric vs. dramatic or spinto), not a particular vocal class (soprano vs. alto). Since music as of late has been written in a higher tessitura, sopranos and tenors have been more reverred than the more common baritone and mezzo. However, not having to reach extreme altitude does not recluse a singer from good vocal form. In ''Carmen'', a nezzo-soprano is required to execute trills, runs and other vocal theatrics. And a soubrette may be required to sing coloratura, or heavily ornamate (pop: ad lib) the music instead of merely executing it one for one. A singer may sing one piece of literature in a soubrette voice and reach extreme coloratura (vocal altitude) in another, thus classifying a singer as a soubrette does not guarantee a lack of ability in vocal altitude. Kathleen Battle and Ashanti can vocalize well in the octave above Soprano C; both can be classified as a soubrette.

Sorry, I wrote this in a rath. In the pop world, it seems the soubrette is thought of to be range challenged, on Britney's page for example, is she a lyric soprano or only a soubrette. The implication that a soubrette is not on full par as a lyric soprano. Incredulous, I tire of it, even though I support her as a strong example of a pop soubrette ALL THE WAY (mainly because I can think of songs were she sings soubrette-esque). However, most of the other pop examples just there because they sound like little girls. J.Lo? Lumidee? The latter can't carry a tune with the Lake Michigan. Curious, Paula Abdul, and Ashanti aren't on the list? People won't put her on the list because she's a lyric coloratura, but Kathleen Battle and Elisabeth Schwarzkopf are (in the true, classical proper sense) Off my soapbox, I go :-) Antares33712 03:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

One other thing; I wasn't trying to say that an alto COULD be a soubrette, but that in classifying a soubrette you can't look at range. It's not alto vs. soprano vs. soubrette (some here believe that), but that's its closer to lyric vs. dramatic voice. It's a type of lyric soprano, sub-genre if you will. Sorry  :-) Antares33712 05:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Well thanks for replying. I share your irritation with the voice classification of pop singers. One of the things that drew me into the vocal music topic issue on Wikipedia is the fact that many of the articles seem to be edited by pop fans who clearly don't have technical knowledge of singing. I myself have to resist the temptation to rant on the talk pages of some of the articles, so I sympathize. Thanks for your help, though, and thanks especially for knowing what you're talking about. :) --George 22:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

This needs an overhaul

This page is a minor mess. To begin with, the history of "soubrette" is absent. "Soubrette" originated from the name of a sort of stock character in the plays of people like Moliere and his contemporaries. This character type was used in opera, too, and thus the role of the soubrette - but it had little to do with voice type or range originally. None of this is mentioned in the article at all.

As for the voice type of that name, the article is just wrong. It in no way implies a limited range; in opera, at least, most soubrettes are simply lyric sopranos. Rather, it implies a certain girlish quality to the voice, appropriate for "soubrette" roles. (Louise-Rosalie Dugazon - for whom Wikipedia has no entry - is the classic example.) It can also imply roles appropriate for that voice, e.g., Papagena - a classic soubrette role which, note, ascends to A5, above the ostensible top listed in this article.

Finally, deciding on which popular singer is or isn't a soubrette is, in my opinion, just impossible. There is a great gulf between the vocal tradition in which the term "soubrette" arose and singers like Britney Spears. To my mind, it makes no sense to make suc comparisons. It seems, however, that some editors of this article are insistent on doing such. Fine, but this should be based on a correct understanding of the word "soubrette," which the article currently lacks.

Point: I'm posting this here to elicit comments. If I don't hear anything, I'm going to reconfigure the article to make it more in keeping with other, authoritative sources on this topic. George

Found her. She's in Wikipedia as Louise-Rosalie Lefebvre. Wallie 05:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Is there a real soubrette?

Now they've changed Hilary Duff's profile to be something other than "soubrette", as they did earlier for Britney Spears. Is there any singer who's legitimately a soubrette, or are all of them subject to interpretation that results in them being classified as not a "real" soubrette after all? *Dan* 19:11, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Kathleen Battle is a soubrette as are many other singers. Wallie 20:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Kathleen Battle is not a soubrette, rather she is a "soprano leggero," capable of singing roles with difficult coloratura (e.g. Zerbinetta in Strauss' "Ariadne auf Naxos"). A true soubrette does not have to meet the vocal demands of this kind of coloratura. Soubrette roles include Susanna (Mozart's "Le Nozze di Figaro"), Zerlina (Mozart's "Don Giovanni"), Papagena (Mozart's "Die Zauberflote"). Battle did, however, sing many of the soubrette roles and, at times, she ventured into the lyric repertoire (e.g. Pamina in Mozart's "Die Zauberflote"). Barbara Bonney would be an example of a real soubrette.

Hello. I'm not sure who posted the statement just above mine, but Kathleen Battle is indeed NOT a soubrette. Originally, very early in her career, I believe Kathleen Battle was a lyric coloratura (like Natalie Dessay, Sumi Jo, etc). Although I have not heard her voice recently as it is now, I've heard she could possibly now be a soprano leggero. EmilyGreene1984

Tone, maybe not soubrette

Brittney Spears exhibits a vocal technique I have not heard discussed, but appears to be much since copied. That is, the "groan" a kind of throat vibrato that expesses passion. It was there in her first single. Is there a name for it?

That sound is sometimes called "vocal fry" - a slow vibration of the vocal chords, without letting them phonate normally. A lot of pop singers use it for a sexy or passionate effect, often blending the fry into a normal tone, the way Spears does, and some opera singers use it to extend their lower range. I agree that Britney uses it quite often. But it's not related to this article. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 23:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Soubrette in Pop Music

I have done a bit of research on this. Most dictionaries suggest this is a role rather than a type of singing voice, eg,

sou·brette (s-brt) n. 1. a. A saucy, coquettish, intriguing maidservant in comedies or comic opera. b. An actress or a singer taking such a part. 2. A young woman regarded as flirtatious or frivolous.

To say that a pop singer fits into any of these definitions is really stretching the definition. Wallie 14:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Britney Spears isn't flirtatious or frivilous? LOL, seriously, few (even classical) would alone make that definition. but as a light, youthful, girlish voice, it fits (only as that it fits) Antares33712 06:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Britney Spears is not primarily a theatre performer. Not every girlish performer is a soubrette: only the ones who play the girlish friend/maid roles in musical theatre or opera or, in a broad sense, in theatre/TV or films. In her own videos, Spears often plays the lead or ingenue, rather than the soubrette, e.g., Toxic. She's not a clear enough example of a soubrette to list here. There are lots of other performers who would be a better example of the idea. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 23:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for putting this here: I don't know how to start a new chapter. A new example is needed of a Mezzo-soprano singing, as the video currently linked to has been removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.17.54.47 (talk) 19:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

"The earliest examples are perhaps to be found in the works of Molière"

Is this true? Isn't this a stock commedia character? · rodii · 17:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorta. Certainly the Columbina character has much in common with the soubrette character, and someone who knows a lot more about the drama of the period than I could perhaps trace directly from one to the other. There's certainly no question that Molière was heavily influenced by the Commedia, as were so many of that time. But the soubrette didn't become well-defined until much later, so while there's a connection they're also surely different. --George 00:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Duplication

Sections of this article are being copied to Soprano. I don't see any point in doing this. WP is interlinked after all! -- Kleinzach 08:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

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