Talk:Solar deity/Archive 1

Archive 1

Top

<please expand, and do answer this question: are all those people really worshipping the sun, or are they there only to see the sun's rays line up to the central avenue?>

- Supposedly this was shut down by the British police, and the site has been closed every solstice for decades.

I saw them this year on CNN

- The British police now allow limited access to the moronic masses at the Stonehenge site at the summer solstice. And with the exception of a few (ho-ho) so-called druids, who are there to bolster their loony ego-trips, very few of them are there for much other than to be stoned out of their faces. There are very few serious British sun-worshippers for fairly obvious reasons and these few are usually to be found where the sun shines i.e. on holiday in the Greek islands, etc... sjc

Mithras

Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra for further current information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeeselDee (talk • contribs) 17:40, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

It seems that the Persian Mithras and the Roman Mithras were not the same God. The Roman soldiers worshipped Mithras in caves which would be an odd form of worship for a sun-god. There is apparently much scholarly debate on this subject.

there is no end to the oddity of antique syncretism. The most recent book from the Oxford University Press on the subject of Mithra (The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries : Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World, David Ulansey)sees the whole mythos NOT as a Persian dualism but, in fact, as a mythologization (a kind of back-etiology) of late Hellenistic astronomical discoveries about eclipses. Not that it got really great reviews, but Oxford published it, and it's a scholarly as you're likely to find. --MichaelTinkler

The Mithraic addition to roman pantheon is not ritualistically the same.Though the very existence of Mithra as a god is validated by Rig veda ,He is venerated alongwith varuna .Also one intriguing fact is his inclusion in list of 12 adityas ,solar deities symbolically representing the 12 months of an year.And this is also a conclusion that mithra represents that time of the year which started with winter solstice ,this concept upon the inclusion of mithra in persian and zoroastrian cultures established itself it as solar deity born on 25th december.

Hence, some radical groups claiming mithra and jesus christ as same and mere astronomical incidents,may be correct ijn their claim but their core of research has dearth of details.But inclusion of astronomical instances in such prehistoric customs only consolidate those times as highly intellectual that current archeology assume them to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.124.247.15 (talk) 07:10, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Egyptian References

Two references for egypt mythology:

http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/listof.htm

http://i-cias.com/e.o/amon.htm

Male or female

Are you aware of the fact that the "male or female"-section is completely unscientific and tendentious? Most real mythologists and historians would disagree with this "alternative" point of view and arbitrary selection of arguments. This is clearly feminist agitprop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.75.82 (talk) 05:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And why does this section have a paragraph devoted to Tolkien?? User:Emma 19:57, 07 Apr 2009 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.215.118 (talk)

I agree. This is garbage and doesn't belong in an encyclopaedic article, at least not without removing the obvious feminist bias. The "missing sun motif" section also states that Demeter is implied to be a sun goddess who departs in despair when her daughter is kidnapped, resulting in winter. Whoever wrote this has no idea what the myth is actually about. Demeter is the fertility of the earth, not the sun, and winter results from her neglecting her duty to bring forth nourishing crops during Persephone's absence. This story is told in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter.

Re-Horakhti

Where does the Egyptian sun god "Re-Horakhti" fit in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.189.153.130 (talk) 11:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Sir Gawain?

I removed

• Arthurian mythology
  • Gawain

from the list. I don't see any evidence that Sir Gawain was a sun god. Dbenbenn 22:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jesus Christ

Added entry for Jesus and cited my source. [1] --200.77.162.65 15:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is an entirely appropriate entry. True, there is evidence that certain aspects of the Christian story were adapted to suit a sun-worshipping European audience, this cited source seems to be quite POV. I'm all for the examination of the differing opinions but this source claims as fact the non-existence of any person called Jesus/Yeshua and dismisses the concept as allegory in complete defiance of primary historical sources, like the works of Flavius Josephus and the like. If the entry is kept, I think its should at least mention that the view of Christ as a sun-god is a minority view and not that of main-stream Christianty as the article implies. Joe Byrne 15:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Chinese Solar Worship

"Unlike many other cultures, the Chinese do not personify nor worship the sun or the moon. The most likely reason is the heavy influence of Taoism and I Ching in Chinese culture because the moon represents Yin and the Sun represents Yang which are the basis of everything in nature. (See Yin and yang.)" I'm sorry, but this is completely false, as anyone remotely familiar with Daoism or Chinese Traditional Religion can tell you. I idly wonder, where does this misinformation comes from? The Sun and Moon are seen in many temples to this day, enshrined as 太陽星君 Taiyang Xingjun and 太陰星君 Taiyin Xingjun, respectively (literally named "Great Yang Star Lord" and "Great Yin Star Lord"). They often accompany Doumu Yuanjun, but often have Their own altars in larger palaces for stellar deities. Rites include the chanting of Their revealed scriptures. Nothing about yin/yang cosmogony requires that these gods need not be "personified;" indeed, they are regarded as metaphysically synonymous with the astral bodies, not merely emblematic.

In addition to these, there are two more gods of the Moon, that of 月老 Yuelao, the old lunar matchmaker god, and the incredibly famous 嫦娥 Chang'e (she's the one with the rabbit). I find it odd that the author of this passage would know about the "Nine Suns" legend, but not know how that same hunter's wife ascended to become this Moon goddess. Both Chang'e and Taiyin Xingjun are worshipped by millions of faithful (mainly women) every year at the "Moon Festival" Zhongqiu Jie, one of the most important on the Chinese religious and cultural calendar. (Chang'e's birthday is the day before that of Taiyin Xingjun.)

Unless someone vehemently objects, I would like to remove and rewrite this section to correspond with anthropological and historical reality.--Aunty Entity 09:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Sun Worship

there needs to be an article about the practices and ceremonies/traditions of various sun-worship groups. i'd do it myself but my research has yielded few results so far...there must be a better researcher out there

CuChulainn

CuChulainn is listed here as a solar deity in the celtic mythology section. As far as i know CuChulainn wasnt ever even treated as a deity in Celtic mythology nevermind a solar deity. This should be taken off the list as its presence brings down the entire standard of the celtic mythology section itself. Fergus mac Róich 05:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Solar theory

"Solar theory" redirects here, but this term is not explained in the article. -- Beland 17:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)I love you

Watch out!

This article is becoming more readable. =). Please help!Yeago 04:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC) I Luv Kaitelynn Benson from Sigourney, Iowa wow she is hot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.28.74.1 (talk) 16:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Good for you, mate! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.215.118 (talk) 19:09, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Solar Deity vs Sun Worship

The first line says 'A solar deity (also heliolatry or sun worship)'. In what way is a solar deity synonymous with sun worship? It's obvious that the two are connected, but why is the first line phrased this way?--Jcvamp 06:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Christianity

The section on Christianity looks strange, to say the least.

The worship of Jesus is equivalent to the Worship of the Sun. This Son of God, or "Sun" of God deitie is likely a retelling of the Sun-God, Sol Invictus, the God Emperor Constantine worshiped and incorporated into the Nicaeain Creed during the Council of Nicaea of 325. Even the "Christ" title, during this time, was changed into meaning the "Sun of Justice".

The Simularities between deities like Jesus, Krishna, Quetzalcoatl, and other personified deities are allagories of our risen Savior, the Sun. And some of the stories and celebrations that Christians think are unique to Christianity are, in fact, not. For example: the celebration of the death and ressurection of Attis was celebrated each year during the Spring Equinox. They would carrie Pine trees on the streets and the name of this event was called "Eastros".

"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man, whom the call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration that was originally paid to the Sun." -Thomas Pain 1737-1809

What's that with random capitalisation, weird grammar, picks on Christianity, and peculiar claims like "our risen Savior, the Sun"? I'm an agnostic, but all of this appears quite inappropriate to me. I do not possess enough knowledge to rewrite the article, but I suggest that somebody does that. The quote is quite aggressive as well, and should probably be commented in some manner, so as to soften its impact and present it as a possible point of view, because at the moment it appears to be presented as absolute truth. --Humanophage (talk) 14:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I've removed it without even looking at this discussion first. Not a good editing practice for deleting a whole section, usually... but it was the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. The editor who wrote the section also recently tried to wikilink Jesus to this article. I watch the Jesus page, so I had to laugh at the play-on-words connection (sun, son)... but that's all it is. The section was unsourced and made-up entirely by the contributor in question... As far as I'm concerned, it's vandalism. It's an example of WP:HOAX for sure. Don't worry about it. Okiefromokla ^questions? 04:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The user has been blocked. Okiefromokla ^questions? 05:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I love how it is so easy for Wikipedia to associate all of these other religions and their Deities to Solar Worship, but God forbid anyone make note of the almost obvious solar references in Christianity. It really says a lot about the staff here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaqkie (talk • contribs) 04:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

One just haa to visit the many cathedrals erected in city centers and see or maybe "observe" the sun symbol right behind the altar - call it brightness, lightness, shining like a gold, rising sun/son etc. , Christianity in particular Catholic religion, directly or indirectly worship and adore the sun. Of course for those who have read about Akhenaton "monotheistic" religion then they can connect the missing dots between the aton( or "an" suffix =sun)that is, pharaohs, Constantine Christianity religion Sunday day of the week and the 360(+5) solar calendar.86.2.117.223 (talk) 00:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I would also like to just add another voice of criticism to the user Okiefromokla. While it is true that the section he removed was clearly inflamatory, poorly written and quite biased. The origins of Christianity in solar worship are patently obvious to anyone studying the topic with even a small amount of objectivity.

(Contrary to scholarly works and beliefs) The story of Jesus was not original. (This idea first appeared 1800 when Friedrich Hölderlin, whose identification of Dionysus with Christ is most explicit in Brod und Wein (1800–1801) and Der Einzige (1801–1803).) In fact he was simply the latest in a very long line of solar messiahs. There are numerous similarities (the only similarities I found were that they were born and lived and most died. DeeselDee Feb 12,2018) between Horus, Krishna, Mithras, Attis, Jupiter etc. and Jesus. A point not lost on Lord Raglan when writing the 'Hero of Tradition', nor on Acharya S, Robert Price or Richard Carrier in their books on the subject.

Even just taking a casual look, it appears plain:

• Worshiped on Sunday.
• Birthday on 25th Dec: Ancient birthday of all previous solar messiahs for millenia. (Please list all prior solar messiahs born on Dec 25th. Wikipedia has listed different seasons and dates of birth for Horus, Krishna, Mitra, Mithras, Attis, Jupiter etc.)
• Ressurection day: Ancient day used to celebrate the sun's triumph over darkness as daytime becomes longer than night after solstice.
• Countless biblical phrases such as:(please quote the Biblical Phrases)

   -  He will come in the clouds, and all shall see him.
   -  He is risen
   -  The light of the world. etc.

• The *blatant* solar symbology used in Christian iconography. All holy figures shown with solar discs behind their heads etc.
• Damning quotes from early Christians such as Justin Martyr: "When we say that Jesus our teacher was born of a virgin and ascended to heaven ... accept this in common with those you esteem to be the sons of Jupiter"

I would urge the users of Wikipedia to put aside their personal beliefs when encountering topics that they find challenging. Please do a small amount of research before resorting to what can only be described as appalling bias and censorship.

Whether you find my arguments convincing or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that this is now a published viewpoint, held by many people. It should therefore have coverage in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.90.62 (talk) 18:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Just a quick link to this book excerpt - which clearly has Jesus as the Sun - with (what is probably more useful) a really large chunk of references listed at the end. EdwardLane (talk) 09:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The Christianity section is still absurd. This is an article on Solar deities. Justification for the absurdity? As written above: "it is so easy for Wikipedia to associate all of these other religions and their Deities to Solar Worship, but God forbid anyone make note of the almost obvious solar references in Christianity." Solar references? Metaphors are not solar deities. Many cultures worshipped the sun and gave names to their sun gods. Judeo-Christian beliefs have always maintained, from Genesis and Deuteronomy, that "God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens... to give light on the earth" and "Take heed lest you lift your eyes to heaven and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars... you feel driven to worship them. Judeo-Christian beliefs, for all their extreme variations, recognize God as the creator and not the Sun as a god. The Christianity section is nothing but extreme bias and an embarrasment to Wikipedia. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 15:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I recommend deleting the entire Christianity section. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 15:34, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

celestial perspective - the "Ahad's Sphere"

There's a new astronomy discovery that says you can't worship the sun beyond a certain distance where its light will become less than the universe's background. You can check it on google [2] and the sphere is in a science fiction book call The First Ark to Alpha Centauri. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.196.73 (talk) 12:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

erm, you mean this?

File:Ahad sphere solar illuminance2.jpg

That is a pop culture thing driven out of science & mathematics, so what possible bearing does it have here? Besides, we're not ready for star travel - not yet :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.12.88.17 (talk) 16:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Try reading Ahad's First Ark to Alpha Centauri (the first book). Pages 101 and 102 deal with this topic very factually and authoritatively. I think you'll find it an invaluable reference ;)Kingkong77 (talk) 11:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a great discussion - some of it should be incorporated into the article.Levalley (talk) 01:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Copyediting

Others feel free to join in, but I'm working on this page - it's a great page, could be improved a little.Levalley (talk) 01:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Great :) It's an interesting topic and it does seem to be improving a lot. I'd love to help out but the reason I'm here is because I don't know much about the subject... --Emma —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.215.118 (talk) 19:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Error in discussion of Germanic mythology

The article states:

In Germanic mythology the Sun is female and the Moon is male. The corresponding Old English name is Siȝel (/ˈsɪ jel/), continuing Proto-Germanic *sôwilô or *saewelô. The Old High German Sun goddess is Sunna. In the Norse traditions, every day, Sól rode through the sky on her chariot, pulled by two horses named Arvak and Alsvid. Sól also was called Sunna, Sunne, and Frau Sunne, from which are derived the words, sun and Sunday.

In fact, however, the Old English descendant of Proto-Germanic *Sôwilô or *Saewelô is "sawel" which is the source of the modern English "soul" and which appears to have had a similar meaning. The Old English word "sigel" is, I believe, generally understood to mean "seal" in modern English (i.e., the kind of seal you put on a document, not the kind that swim in the sea) and is, I believe, viewed as a borrowing in Late Antiquity from the Latin "sigillum."

The statement, "Sól also was called Sunna, Sunne, and Frau Sunne, from which are derived the words, sun and Sunday," is kind of a pastiche. "Sól" is Old Norse; "Sunna" is Old High German; "Sunne" and "Frau Sunne" are Modern German. None of these is the origin of the English words "sun" or "Sunday" because English derives from Old English, which was spoken at the same period in history as Old Norse and Old High German. Old English (and thus English) cannot, therefore, be considered descendant from either one of those languages.

I also question whether there is any such thing as "Germanic mythology" as a historical precursor to Norse mythology which can be known today.

I suggest that the paragraph on Germanic mythology be deleted for the sake of accuracy.

-- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 23:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC))

Bob99 is correct, Sunne is not the origin of sun or Sunday (there are older Indo-European roots; see http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=sunday). And it's not relevant to the topic anyway, so I am removing that phrase.

JimTheFrog (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Prabhakaran, the LTTE chief is a Sun God???

Why do we have a section which says that "Prabhakaran is believed to be a Sun god"? I am not sure whether this can be added to this section which concentrates on the mythological sun god/goddess through the ages. I am deleting this section unless someone provides a valid reason for inclusion in this article. To title it "Sri Lankan Mythology" seems to make it even more ridiculous! freewit (talk) 08:26, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Sól -> Sun?

Feminist examination of some of the earliest religions of Western cultures concluded that a sun goddess, often, driving her chariot bearing it across the sky daily. Sól is the goddess after whom the sun and Sunday are named in English.

There are two things wrong in this paragraph. First, the first sentence doesn't make sense, or at least is not very coherent. "Feminist examination [...] concluded that a sun goddess [...] driving her chariot bearing it across the sky daily." There's something missing, there.

Second, the statement "Sól is the goddess after whom the sun and Sunday are named in English" is false. According to Wiktionary [3], "sun" descends from Old English "sunne", from Proto-Germanic "sunnon", and from Proto-Indo-European "séh₂wl". At best, "sól" and "sun" are cognates, as are "sun", "sol", and "helios". And even if, instead of "sun", English had something that resembled "sol" more, it would more likely descend from Latin, since it's had a much stronger influence in Europe than any of the Scandinavian languages ("sol" is "sun" in five European languages, and minor variations of "sol" are used by two other languages).

I'm removing the paragraph. 201.250.4.114 (talk) 02:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

In fiction

In Edgar Rice Burroughs' Tarzan-books appears Opar, with La, the highpriestess of Flaming God a.k.a Sun. Tarzan is often in the altar of "Flaming God" as La comes close to offering him, as the god requires blood sacrifies.--RicHard-59 (talk) 13:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

You also have to include a piece on Primevial Kryptonian Sun/Star Worship. Supermans ancestors used to worship their local star. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.75.45.165 (talk) 18:07, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Curious

I'm curious if a stronger statement can be made in the lead and the article. Though I am no expert on ancient religions my understanding is that in most cultures on earth, before the advent of the more sophisticated religions of the past few millenia, the sun was not only a common deity but was seen as the primary deity or one of the top few among a small number. In other words, would it be appropriate to say in some fashion that historically the sun has been a central deity in most primitive civilizations up until more recent times? I honestly don't know the answer but I was wondering ...

--Mcorazao (talk) 18:04, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Good point. Perhaps also worth bearing in mind is that the Sun, millenia before Christianity, was also seen as a manifestation of a transcendental God, e.g in the form of Amun-Re. I have a coin of the first Christian Roman Emperor Constantine with Sol Invictus depicted on the flip side. There is also the very ancient tradition, rooted in scripture, associating Jesus with the Sun. Taam (talk) 19:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I find issue with your statement claiming that the sun was more prevalent in "primitive" civilizations. Amaterasu is, after all, the chief goddess of Japanese shintoism, which is still practiced today! And I bet that there are other modern religions which have the sun as a chief deity out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.84.130.6 (talk) 23:32, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Shinto belief is missing (i think)

Dont know if the Shinto belief isnt as important as the ones mentioned in the article but is important to notice that it is the main spiritual filosofy of earlier and ancient Japan (as far as ive reserched wich is not very much xD) but anyways it seemed important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.68.184.212 (talk) 21:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Solar chariot

Solar chariot is described in Helios, not here. --Pawyilee (talk) 13:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Solar barge and sun chariot

I would like to recommend to transfer the paragraphs Solar barge and Sun chariot to own articles, that can be extended then. Same was done in the German Wikipedia (w:de:Sonnenwagen and w:de:Sonnenschiff). --ThomasWF (talk) 23:28, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

THIS ARTICLE IS PURE FEMINIST PROPAGANDA

their never existed a female sun god called solnze in the slavic mythology.Also solnze is neuter and is not feminie.This article needs to be reworked — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.46.171 (talk) 07:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC) I have changed it and i hope that someone rework the article soon.The slavic people had many solar deities(khors,svarog,dazhbog,svarozic) but there was never a femine solar deity among the slaves.They all were male — Preceding unsigned comment added by 54.220.252.91 (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

The Hoard of the Sun

Heard someone speak of this and was curious about it but could not find any information, hoping someone can help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.221.97.62 (talk) 00:12, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Shinto/Amaterasu

Why isnt the japanese/shinto sun-godess mentioned in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.28.65.37 (talk) 22:22, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Sex and gender

There is a rather odd footnote to the lead, talking about the gender of the nouns for "Sun" in various languages. It is quite understandable to have discussion of the notional sex ("male" or "female") of the notional deity of the sun, but strictly this has nothing to do with the grammatical gender of words. (As for example, famously, das Mädchen ("maiden") in German is neuter, but its referent is female.) I'm not sure this note is even necessary... Imaginatorium (talk) 09:15, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 September 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): RM.Fawcett.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Was the Arabia section vandalised?

"The concept of the sun as a god is nonsense Pre-Islamic Arabia, abolished only under Muhammad." Perhaps that was vandalized or it's just poorly worded and I don't understand the point the editor was trying to make. Might someone improve this? Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 15:14, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Armenian mythology

The ancient Armenians called themselves after the name of their sun god Ar. And "ar" is a root in an enormous percent of their vocabulary. So after reading a well respected text by one of their members of the Armenian National Academy of Sciences, Paris Herouni (referenced in the article), it occurred to me that in an article on solar deity, Armenian mythology isn't just one of many. As it characterized their cultural identity and even their language, I thought it would be worth adding this section to the list in the article. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 17:23, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

bruh

when u think about it, jesus is the 'sun' of god... deep shit 212.92.120.248 (talk) 01:33, 1 August 2019 (UTC)