Talk:Snake-stone

Disambiguation - Snakestone is also a carboniferous kind of whetstone found only in Scotland. It is of sufficiently fine granularity to use in a final sharpening to near-razor sharp quality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.32.68 (talk) 17:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

A quick google search only revealed circular "snakestone" dictionary definitions, most of which seemed to be computer-generated copies of each other. I couldn't see any sources re claims of how good it is at sharpening. It is unlikely to be only found in Scotland - it is more likely that that particular 'carboniferous shale' is only called snakestone in Scotland. Rather than altering this article, please log in and create a separate disambiguation page that links to a new (referenced!) entry in Sharpening stone.BenevolentUncle (talk) 21:57, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I started modifying this article after a friend came back from the Congo talking about 'black-stone'. It's a fascinating topic but it needs a lot of work.

Ideas for article improvement

• Better structure for article
• Public domain photos
• Clarification of the different names
  • black stone
  • snake stone - is this the same thing? It seems like there are different traditions in different countries.
  • mad stone - Is this a North-American version of the same thing? If so, how did the meme spread?
  • Bezoar - "a stone found in the intestines of mostly ruminant animals" Is this the same as mad stone?
• References in Litarature
  • Who was the Arabic writer Kazwini?
  • Can we find old references to these stones?
    • Apparently one of the first mentions in Western literature is in "Description Générale de la Chine" L’Abbé Grosier. I'm trying to find a good reference:
    • Grosier, Abbe. A general description of China. London, 1783
    • Grosier, A. A General Description of China: Containing the Topography of the Fifteen Provinces which Compose this Vast Empire, that of Tartary, the Isles, and Other Tributary Countries. 2 vols. Translated from the French of Abbe Grosier. London: G.G.J. & J. Robinson, MDCCLXXXVIII. 1788
• References in science
  • get access to the medical articles that I've found abstracts of
  • What is the current medical opinion on treatment using black-stone?
• How could it work?
  • Could it function like Activated Carbon which is used to treat internal poisoning?
• Impact on society of current beliefs
  • How widely are they used?
  • Are many people suffering unnecessarily because the stones don't help
  • or avoiding this traditional treatment because doctors don't support unscientific methods?

---

How about emphasizing that this is a distracting myth that will harm if it distracts from seeking and providing proper medical care? By keeping victims calm and still it can probably do good, but it would be nice if victims can be educated that the 'magic' comes from calmness, not from a black stone. I might add re how non-science re AIDS in South Africa was responsible for the deaths of 100,000s.

I have removed the ILO paragraph below, because

• a technical workshop on labor is hardly a reliable source on medicine
• the reference no longer exists, perhaps because the ILO was embarassed that it ever made it thru.

An International Labour Organization technical workshop stated, "Local medicine, for instance black stone for snake bites, should be provided to those working in the plantations."

Actually, now I am angry. The Nigerian study was badly misquoted, and by quoting it in two places it gave an appearance of substance to this article which is completely unwarranted; I'll fix it. I do hope that no-one has been deliberately wasting our time with this quackery so as to provide a 'reference' for making money out of the gullible.BenevolentUncle (talk) 08:33, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, so lets fix the misquotes of the Nigerian study, which are a nasty example of selective quoting and spurious double-quoting of the same article to give an appearance of more substance than is warranted. The entire 'Views on snake-stones expressed in scientific studies' section read (with emphasis added):

• A Nigerian study recommended "education on the need to avoid the use of popular first aid measures of doubtful benefit."[10] However the same doctors reported a year later that Black Stone may be beneficial.[2]
• A Bolivian medical study stated, "contrary to widespread belief, no efficacy to treat envenomation may be expected of the BS" (black stone)[11]
• An Indian study stated, "unscientific methods like ‘black stone’ healing contribute to the delay in seeking appropriate medical care."[6]
• A Nigerian study found, "... black stone appears to have beneficial effects by reducing the average antivenom requirement of patients and more studies are needed ..."[2]

The quoted Nigerian study's Abstract reads (with emphasis added to show where the selective quote came from):

The use of first aid measures in the management of snake bite by patients in rural communities in Africa is a popular practice. Records of 103 snake bite patients admitted at Zamko Comprehensive Health Centre, were retrieved and reviewed. 84 (81.6%) of the 103 cases with snake bite used first aid measures. Common first aid measures employed include tourniquet (ropes, pieces of cloth), use of the black stone, application of traditional medicine and incision of site of bites. The use of first aid measure did not prevent spread of the venom. There was no significant increase in the proportion of patients with tissue necrosis between patient that used tourniquet and those that did not (7.9% vs 5.3%). Patients that did not employ first aid measures required significantly higher doses (mls) of antivenom compared to those who used tourniquet (39.33 Vs 24.52 P< 0.01); those who use traditional medicine (39.33 Vs 27.5 P < 0.01); and those who used black stone (39.33 Vs 28.75 P < 0.01). Also those who used the black stone required significantly higher quantity of antivenom as compared to those that used the tourniquet (28.75 vs 24.52 P < 0.05). The use of the tourniquet, traditional herbs and the black stone appears to have beneficial effects by reducing the average antivenom requirement of patients and more studies are needed to identify the most appropriate approaches to their use.

Below I have extracted the relevant numbers from the above Abstract. They suggest that Black Stones were useful, but that Traditional Medicine and Tourniquets were even more useful! As the Abstract says, more research is required, but I think they will find that the smartest thing to do is use a touniquet and be calm. (NB: other authors have long warned to beware of using excessively narrow touriquets.)

First Aid treatment	antivenom mls required
Tourniquet	24.52
Traditional medicine	27.5
Black stone	28.75
No treatment	39.33

BenevolentUncle (talk) 10:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

References

Snake Stones: A Brief Discussion, by Dr. S. Adichillath

This article gives a correct picture about 'snake stones' and its uses. So if you want to get a correct information please read the article.

Online articles

Wikipedia:

• Adder stone

(If you read these articles, please consider updating Snake-Stones)

• Sketches of the Natural History of Ceylon by Sir James Emerson Tennent (uses term 'Pamboo-Kaloo') —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamster128 (talk • contribs) 17:27, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• All About Mad·stones
• A Historical Description of Snake Stones
• Tales About the Properties and Powers of Snake Stones
• Historic Tales of Madstones and Serpent Stones
• A Tale of Three Goat-suckers / Story of Colonel Cobb
  • Talks about a Snake Stone retrieved from a markhor. And also "Bezoar-stones were a sure cure for snake-venom and poison. They were obtained from the stomachs of various animals, mostly goats, and they used to be a regular item of trade from India and Persia to Europe"
• CONTEXT: 100 YEARS AGO, Nature 406, 354-354 (27 Jul 2000) News and Views. (Subscriber only) Also available in this article (see sidebar on page 2).
  • "described as white, porous stones ... adhere until all the poison is drawn out, after which they are placed in milk" South Africans believe that they "taken from the head of a snake" Article "suggested that snakes stones are made of pumice ... may possibly explain the popular delusion that snake-stones are made of bone" could "the Malay slaves ... have carried the legend with them ..."?
  • Very interesting article as it's a very early reference 1900 and talks about white rather than black stones.
• Medical study: Snake stone for snake envenomization, Rasquinha D. (Subscriber only)
  • It would be very interesting to see the conclusions of this study.
• The Mad-Stone, JAMA May 12, 1900. As quoted in JAMA, May 17, 2000 Vol 283, No.19. (Free subscription required)
  • "... earliest descriptions attributed to Abbé Grosier, in his 'Description of the Chinese' ... Use of a stone called the serpent-stone in "Tang-King". This was applied, stuck fast, absorbed the poison, dropped off ... stone was washed ... and could then be used again"
  • "in 1812, Dr Thacher says ... there prevails a fanciful opinion ... that snake-stone possesses ... the power of extracting the poison of a snake"
  • "Wonders of Nature and Art" in "the account of Tonquin" refers to the "serpent-stone" and "washing it with milk."
  • Refers to a Mad-stone dated "Charlestown, S.C. 1740"
  • Two types of Mad-stone "1. some porous form of calcareous rock or "2. a concretion found in the intestinal canal of herbivorous animals. in this being like the Bezoar stone ... which, when it ceased to be used in internal medication, came to be applied externally."
  • Very interesting article: pointer to earliest reference (Grosier), suggests snake stones, mad stones and bozoar stones are similar in concept.
• Medicine in Colonial America: Part II. Harris D. Calif West Med. 1939 Jun; 50(6): 415-418.
  • "The Bezoar or Bezar stone was another universal remedy in favorable repute."
  • "in America it was for powdered internal use."
  • "There is recorded the story of skillful a woman physician of Virginia who in 1690, gave 'pulverized oriental bezoar stone' to a man bitten a rattlesnake."
  • Notes a very early use of bezoar stone in North America
• A Case of Snake-Bite from the Consilia of Gentile da Foligno. Thorndike L. Med Hist. 1961 Jan; 5(1): 90-95. quotes "Consilium ad morsum aspidis surdi" Pavia c. 1488
  • "And there are many things which applied internally and externally are good against poisons, as Avicenna said of the bezoar."

Books

(If you have access to these books, please consider updating Snake-Stones)

• A Description of the Great and Most Famous Isle of Ceylon - Philip Baldaeus - Amsterdam: 1672. Earliest references by a European? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamster128 (talk • contribs) 17:31, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
• The Snakes of Trinidad and Tobago, Hans E. A. Boos - Mentions Belgian Black Stone on p. 193, 221,222
• General History and Collection of Voyages and Travels Vol.1, 2, 8, 11, 17 by Robert Kerr - Quoted by Indotalism.com: "... serpent-stone ... brought from India ... about the size of a bean, white in the middle, but of a fine sky-blue on the outside" Stone sticks to bite, falls off when full of venom. Refreshed by storing in milk.
• The Snakes of South Africa, F.W. FitzSimons Quoted by indotalisman.com: "Snake stones for the cure of snake bite have, for centuries, been in great demand. They are regarded by millions of Indians with awe and reverance. To them it is blasphemy to doubt the efficacy of a Snake stone. Of all snake bite "cures" the Snake Stone is regarded as the most effective." (TODO: get a better reference for this book)
• A strange story, Edward George E.L. Bulwer-Lytton Published 1862 - Talks about a blue-stone in Corfu that turned black after many uses. (Can we find earlier references than 1862?)

--Hamster128 12:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Enough already, this article has been a waste of time

From this talk page it seems clear that most of this article has been massively non-scientific POV - it was not an attempt to describe folklore, but an original research attempt to suggest that black stones worked per se (beyond their incidental stilling/calming/placebo effects). I would not have bothered to clean it up, except that disinformation re snakebites can be fatal and/or distract from what needs to be done. Its refs seem to be entirely primary sources. I did not find any new refs, instead I read the refs that the Article had selectively quoted and found quotes that are sensible. I am really irritated that there was so much disinformation to clean up. I hope it can now stay NPOV and well cited, and if not, it may be appropriate to request administrator assistance. (Of course, if people want to add descriptions of different instances of traditional medicine, go for it - I suppose it could be considered to be notable... Just please refrain from suggesting that snake-stones work per se.)

It would be nice if someone could now find some nice secondary sources (as per WP:MEDRS), but there may not be any, because it is unlikely that many reliable researchers will spend much time summarising the obvious.

A few points: many snakebites are dry - this is snakebite 101. So the wonder-cure that Adichillath witnessed is not significant. But for actual envenomations, depending on the poison type, it can be:

• very important to minimise movement, to slow down movement of the poison thru the lymphatic and/or blood systems,
• important to keep the heart rate low, to slow down movement of the poison thru the blood system, with the hope that the immune system can cope with the poison,
• important to minimise stress & pessimism, so as to help the immune system

Any 'black stone' treatment is likely to achieve at least one of these outcomes. But ideally, education for comprehensive best practice is better.

BenevolentUncle (talk) 10:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

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