Talk:Simon Drake

Untitled

The following was in an HTML comment on the article page. I've moved it here because this is where such notes and additional info belong if they are not visible as part of the main article.

"Drake was the illusionist on the 1993-1994 Iron Maiden tour and is featured in their live concert film, Raising Hell"

Circusandmagicfan 11:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

Date of Birth

We know his birthday is the 1st March as he says so here: http://www.houseofmagic.co.uk/news.html "Simon will be appearing on the Gadget Show on Channel 5 on the 1st March (which is also his birthday!) " We also know his age, as he says he is the same age as David copperfield here in this interview: http://itricks.com/news/wp-content/uploads/podcasts/MWiR100508.mp3 So in 2011 he is 54 (as is copperfield), so he must have been born on March 1st, 1957 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Confusedmiked (talk • contribs) 11:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

He was born 1/3/56 in fact. 92.26.170.175 (talk) 11:32, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Censorship?

I notice there have been a few edits that either removed information or reverted text to earlier versions that were reminiscent of PR material from the subject. I don't know if these edits were made by the subject or a friend of his so I can't say exactly how WP:Biographies of living persons applies. The way I've approached each aspect is as follows:

• Happy for reference to alleged real name to be removed on grounds that there is no cited source for it and thus debate about accuracy is moot. If it was accurate and there was a cited open source it would be a different matter

• Happy for the quote from the Independent article to be removed as it didn't really add much to the article and I suppose the subject could take offence at the particular words quoted - although the article as a whole reads as a favourable review.
• However, I see no reason to remove all reference to the Independent article. The Independent is an established national "broadsheet" newspaper and the article doesn't seem libellous. I have therefore moved the citation to "External links".
• Re: the location of The House of Magic - as there seems to be some contention over the precise description of the location I have gone back and examined the cited sources. As I don't have access to a copy of the Northern Echo, which seems to be the originally cited source for the Kennington address, I can't verify that. The most precise description I have been able to access is "south London", as used by The Sunday Times, which is an established national "broadsheet" paper. The phrase "secret location, somewhere in central London" is slightly inaccurate (the location is definitely South London and not central London by all general definitions). The phrase is also a direct lift of a piece of PR text and thus should ideally be replaced by something more factual. I've used the term "unpublicised" rather than "secret" because it is clearly known to a lot of people, and therefore not secret, but I want to reflect Simon Drake's obvious effort to avoid publicising the location.

Circusandmagicfan 13:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

I don't know if this helps but I've made several edits to this page and despite my username I'm not actually Simon Drake of house-of-magic fame, I'm just a random English university student with the same username. If that helps clear up any issues with who is adding non-neutral point of view stuff, whoever it is it isn't me and I'm not the 'real' Simon Drake.Simondrake 13:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No, the edits in question were made by User:Nalex and IP address 60.234.245.253. By curious coincidence there were some edits made by a User:Nalexander back in 2005 - perhaps just a total coincidence or perhaps Nalex is a sockpuppet.

Correct, User:Nalex confirms his edits. Why post my IP address? The earlier user name may be another user, or may have even been newbie panic (in 2005). It is not an attempt to sock-puppet which is defined as two names being used in coordination rather than by coincidence or error. No such effort was in play. It is a matter of privacy. I must stress that I have not added any non-neutral point of view stuff - I made minor deletions to remove the Independent article which has a factual error and is a review, favourable or not, it is not factual but opinion.

I didn't know who the IP address belonged to. I mentioned it because it showed up in the history log as an identifier for someone making an edit to the article and I was using it to distinguish between that edit and the ones attributed by the log to "Nalex") Circusandmagicfan 19:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

The address is confirmed by a listing on city-visitor.com Back ache 15:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources for this are clear enough: the Northern Echo (accessed via the Lexis Nexis database of most regional and all national newspapers) gave the address for the House of Magic (an encyclopadia should really not be using phrases like "a secret location" which was how this was described before). This address can then be checked against the electoral roll to see who actually is registered as living there (via 192.com in my case) and that is how the name name can be verified. Someone more experienced in W editing should revert these two pieces of factual information but include citation, which I didn't do. If the date of the Northern Echo piece is needed, I'll add it here on request (can't remember if I included it before). In general I would say this page used to suffer very badly from not being NPOV and is now heading back there, which is a pity Testbed 18:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)TestBed

Should the address really be publicised? It's also publicised that he and his family live there so why should that info be more accessible than it needs to be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.138.250 (talk) 00:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

More citation problems

I have just reread the edited page: never mind NPOV (still a problem) it is completely full of unsourced claims (the one I added is the business of the production of Dr Faustus and although I marked this as 'citation needed' no-one has helped yet). Before I flag this page as unreliable, maybe someone can help with some more citations. One can't help the slight feeling that contributors called Alex or Alexander - nothing to do with Simon Alexander of course but maybe they've met him (!) - don't fully understand how biographical pages on W are supposed to be put together. Sorry to be a curmudgeon but my only interest is in cleaning up W entries as I come across them (I accidentally became the centre of a little W controversy in relation to another magician - one I had incidentally never heard of - and discovered just how awkward this can get. That page has since been deleted, which is a fierce outcome I had not intended - just wanted the thing to be better written and more accurate.) Testbed 18:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)TestBed

I would not want this to end up getting deleted in the same way as the other article referred to. Wikipedia policy recognises that sometimes it's better to step back from a dispute, take a few deep breaths and then maybe take a fresh look when you're less riled about the thing. So I kind of agree that if there are citable open sources then the items in question have passed a crucial test for inclusion. But there's no sense in fighting for every single inch of territory if the outome is that eveything is destroyed. It's also important to note that WP:Attribution ultimately places the obligation to provide citations on those who want the material included. If I get time I'll have a look at the info you've provided and see if I can produce some sort of compromise improvement.

Circusandmagicfan 23:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

I've just reverted part of yet another edit by User:Nalex. Once again this person seems to have tried to reinsert the description "secret location in central London", which is suspiciously like the wording used in publicity material for House of Magic and is arguably an attempt to insert factually inaccurate information. I believe that "unpublicised location in south London" is factually accurate. The "south London" location is supported by references to two national newspapers in the article. In addition User:Back ache has quoted www.city-visitor.com as evidence that the location is in Kennington. And Kennington is most definitely south London rather than central London. I don't want this to erupt into an edit war with one side attempting to add more and more precise address information while the other attempts to delete it. Personally I think south London is as precise as we need to be (to some extent I'm following the example of UK newspapers when they report the location of the home of someone involved in a news story - unless the precise location is pertinent they generally do not give house numbers and sometimes not the actual street).

I've not reverted the change from "stage name" to "name" because at the moment there is no direct citation for the fact that the subject is a stage name and I want to be on absolutely firm ground before making contested changes here.

I intend to flag up the potential sockpuppet issue with admins.

Circusandmagicfan 14:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

Further to the above, I have just re-read WP:Biographies of living persons and would draw attention to the section on presumption in favour of privacy: "...public records that include personal details such as home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations and home or business addresses should not generally be used". Given there is some indication that The House of Magic is also Simon Drake's residence then the actual address should not be given in the article. However, I feel the description "south London" should stand as the known location is simply not part of what is generally regarded as central London and attempts to describe it as such are potentially misleading.

I have posted on User talk:Nalex and would prefer to wait and see any reply from him/her here before doing anything else.

Circusandmagicfan 15:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

User:nalex has updated his entry. The nalexander account may have been started in error in 2005, no intention at all to "sock-puppet", maybe another user or a case of a newbie who forgot his old login. Have posted details of objections to publishing private information to Circusandmagicfan for rectification citing WP:Biographies of living persons.

User:nalex 03:13, 27 March 2007 (NZT)

User:nalex has e-mailed me with extensive reasoning behind his efforts to edit this article. Having read this I am sympathetic to a lot of the arguments he raises. (If he is reading this I'd like to say that I've tried to be careful not to refer to anything I was asked not to include in this page). I think it is reasonable to say he has told me he is not Simon Drake and explained who he is. I refer to him only by his user name and report the points he has made to me.

He confirms he was asked by Simon Drake to try to get the article altered. He points out that WP:Biographies of living persons states "While Wikipedia discourages people from writing new articles about themselves or expanding existing ones significantly, subjects of articles remain welcome to edit articles to correct inaccuracies, to remove inaccurate or unsourced material, or to remove libel." On this basis it seems reasonable that he should have some input here. The main problem seems to have been that he did not identify himself or explain his reasoning. He now seems to be genuinely trying to make amends for any perceived clumsiness or breach of etiquette.

He says one of Simon Drake's prime worries is the possibility that if the address of House of Magic is published prominently here then it might assist stalkers or other people with malicious intent. That seems an understandable concern to me. In support of the case for keeping this information out he cites the following from WP:Biographies of living persons...

• "Biographies of living people must be written conservatively and with due regard to the subject's privacy."
• "Material from primary sources should be used with care. For example, public records that include personal details such as home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations and home or business addresses should not generally be used."

I have argued previously (19 March) that the precise address should not be given and I think this reinforces the point. User:nalex says Simon Drake accepts the reference to south London on grounds of factual accuracy so the wording of the location as of 19 March seems like a reasonable compromise. I think any mention of the address should also be removed from this talk page (see quote from guideline below).

The other contested areas of the article were the suggestion of Simon Drake's real name and links to a couple of newspaper articles. User:nalex argues against publication of Simon Drake's real name on the same grounds as he opposes publication of the address. I can see where they're coming from on that.

I am more inclined to defend the links to newspaper articles. User:nalex cites the following from WP:Biographies of living persons as part of his reasoning...

• "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.
• "This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to biographical material about living persons in other articles. The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material."

I can understand Simon Drake and User:nalex might have problems with the articles but it seems to me that's an argument for them to take to the newspaper publishers. Unlike name and address details, which take some effort to dig up, those articles were published in mainstream national media and remain easily accessible (the Independent one turned up quickly through Google). The articles seem generally complementary and are not obviously libellous. The main problem seems to be that one of the pieces implies in passing that Simon Drake is married, which I am told is not the case. It seems to me that, for the moment at least, the articles should remain as referenced sources with the proviso that the article here does not repeat any inaccuracies (and indeed that we try to address that with correct information where it is reasonable to publish it). My position would change if the articles in question were the subject either of legal action for defamation or a successful complaint to the UK's Press Complaints Commission. At the moment it does not seem that they fall into that category of problem.

Circusandmagicfan 17:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

Cleaning things up

I did some checking:

1) User:nalex would appear to be Simon Drake's brother, Nicholas Alexander: it seems slightly disingenuous that he does not to mention this. On the User Page for User:nalex it says inter alia "theatrical producer active in New Zealand and the UK with credits including successful New Zealand shows at The Assembly Rooms (Mika and the Uhuras, 1997 and Mika:AhiAtahua, 1998)". I received an email today from the New Zealand performer Mika, in which he says of Simon Drake: "yes that is my former managers brother. I dont have my managers cntacts anymore but his name is nicholas alexander." Wouldn't it be simpler all round if Simon Drake just created a user name as himself and then everyone would know what was going on?

2) There is a useful Wikipedia category called "People known by pseudonyms"[[1]]. The arguments for keeping the real name of a performer private if he so asks are perhaps reasonable; however what is the rationale for concealing the fact that a stage name is a stage name? Compare for example other performers (including magicians) in the same W category. It might be a sensible compromise to deal with the "real name" issue by including the Simon Drake page in that category, and changing the opening line to include something like "...is the stage name of a British magician.."

3) Unfortunately most of the facts listed that do not have a citation turn out to come direct from Simon Drake's own web pages. There are strict W rules against quoting from self-published sources; perhaps the sensible thing would be to reduce the page for the time being until better sources turn up. There are plenty of examples of web pages full of self-promotion but these, rightly, are treated as suspect sources. Testbed 16:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)TestBed

Actually you are wrong about self published sources. WP:Biographies of living persons and WP:SELFPUB make clear that it is acceptable to cite such sources in a number of situations - and I can see there are good arguments why some of those situations might apply here.

The mere fact that such sources have been cited is not sufficient to go lopping large chunks out of this article. If there are pieces of text that are littered with adjectives and pronouns derived from publicity then they can be edited into more balanced language (and I have done so in some cases). If there are facts that seem dubious then point them out and people can look for verification (there is a template for tagging for that specific purpose). I cannot see anything in the article at the moment which would really be such a serious detriment to the overall quality of Wikipedia that it must be deleted instantly.

I am not sure how it helps this article to publish all that research about the possible identity of User:nalex. He is not the subject. I already alluded to the fact that he had some connection to Simon Drake and that he was getting involved here on Drake's behalf. Those are the salient facts and you have added nothing to them. All you have done is publish personal information - which seems a questionable tactic. If the effort you put into persuing your apparent grievances against other users was instead put into researching articles then it might produce rather more constructive results.

The tone of your above post (and previous ones) is beginning to make me wonder whether you are just trolling here Testbed. Given that you said another dispute you were involved in led to the complete loss of an article maybe you should take a deep breath and cut people a little slack if you really want to make a positive contribution to Wikipedia. User:Nalex has admitted to being a little naive about the etiquette of Wikipedia and has apologised for any transgression. He has also given me a credible assurance that the other user "Nalexander" was not him and so as far as I'm concerned the sockpuppet thing was a false alarm. If Simon Drake wants User:Nalex to help him have an input here that seems within his rights. Where's the problem?

As for making clear that "Simon Drake" is a stage name, that seems reasonable. I will edit to that effect and hope that is satisfactory.

Circusandmagicfan 17:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

No problem - but is it OK to say your own "tone" isn't all that necessary? I am just typing away, under time pressure, trying to help with some ideas as and where I can. I have complimented you in the past (you obviously have a good understanding of both W and this magic business, better than me I think, and I apologise if my reading of W guidelines was faulty): just because we disagree on occasion is no reason for name calling.

In fact our disagreement does not seem to be all that great. From your subsequent edits it seems you have taken on board my point 2 (stage name), and partly my point 3 (NPOV and/or self-published claims of public, and therefore presumably well-documented, events of a "performed in front of the crowned heads of Europe" kind perhaps need more work), so may I restrict my defence to point 1?

You are not the sole arbiter on W so perhaps others could add a comment or two. Is the fact that significant editing is being done by someone's brother relevant or not? I think it is; you do not agree. You say that to make clear User:nalex is "connected" to Drake is enough; I think the fact that he is Drake's brother is worth being aware of (especially since most of the edits by User:nalex are Drake-related).

Reading back I think my suggestion that Drake edit as himself was rather crass: he is a star, so perhaps instead of this option (or his brother editing anonymously), transparency could be better served by editing being done openly by Drake's management, press agent or TV company (btw I see that according to Drake's website they are about to release a DVD of "Secret Cabaret" which I for one would like to buy).

Finally, you say or imply some things which are not true: I have no "grievances against other users" (see above); I believe my efficiency as a researcher is what I can bring to W, and that is what I have been doing in a number of areas (most of them nothing to do with magicians, who are presumably more burdened by secrecy than most); the deleted article was not removed by me nor (as I have already said) at my suggestion (I tagged a dreadful, possibly fictional, biography as needing work, and others later suggested and then implemented deletion, which I questioned); and, please believe me, my only wish is to be positive. If you faced as many undergraduates as I do who place reliance on W's accuracy you would understand my commitment to helping as positively as possible. Testbed

As you have observed, I am quite happy to take on board points that seem justified on their own merits. That does not change my view of your actions regarding Nalex. I think you have been over zealous. The salient fact is that he is clearly acting on behalf of Simon Drake. This means that under WP:BLP we must give due respect to requests that material be removed if he claims it is libellous or a potential threat to Simon Drake's safety. It also logically leads to the assuption that he has a bias in favour of Simon Drake's POV. Further detail about his identity is currently irrelevant to that assumption. Only if it was alleged that there was some diffence in views between User:nalex and Simon Drake would further background become relevant. The existence of known bias merely serves to alert us to check his material for NPOV issues. Such issues are then addressed by seeking verification and by editing to ensure wording is balanced and free of marketing hyperbole. I therefore re-iterate that Nalex is not the subject here. He also has certain rights to privacy. Publication of un-necessary personal information about him (or any other editor for that matter) risks appearing like a vendetta. I do not mean to attribute any improper motivation to your actions Testbed, however I am concerned about their effects.

As for the undergraduates, I sympathise with anyone who has to deal with them. Most of the ones I meet these days are badly in need of having all their illusions shattered.

Circusandmagicfan 10:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

The line He worked alongside magician Pat Page[2] points to a video clip of Simon Drake speaking. Surely this is primary material and not allowed? I'm trying to write a page about Pat Page and I'd love to cite him working with Simon Drake, but I need independent articles. Suggest this sentence is removed and this reference is removed. Centretear (talk) 19:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Simon Alexander and early life

Circusandmagicfan, I have just looked back at these pages after leaving them for a while to see whether it is only the two of us (and maybe Drake's brother) who are interested. At the moment it seems that it is. This is a pity, for two reasons:

1) you have accused me of goodness knows what personal agenda, and my contributions may therefore be seen as somehow suspicious (but if you check you will see that I hardly contribute to Drake or magic at all, just got into this because of being a "Secret Cabaret" fan when the show was on) - it would be better if other experienced editors passed comment or worked on the page

2) quite by chance (while looking something up about Pink Floyd) I have just tripped over a book with some references that

(a) show that Drake's real name is no big secret (contrary to the various claims so far), as it's been published recently in a book about Arthur Brown and in a section by Drake himself

(b) provide some straightforward reminiscence by Drake on his early life, including his work as a record plugger.

Given the first point I wish this material had been found by you or someone else, but there it is. I haven't got time today to work on the page, but here's some of the passage (which maybe you can use to improve the entry) - from "The God of Hellfire: The Crazy Life and Times of Arthur Brown" by Polly Marshall, SAF Publishing 2005, page 138:

Simon Alexander - now Simon Drake, magician - was working there [Gull record company] as an office boy. He tells the story: "Arthur's single 'Fire' was the first record I bought at the age of 12, the same year my father was cremated. As the years went on I saw Arthur at the Rainbow with Kingdom Come. I was a huge fan. At Gull I was the office boy. But I was young and always going out to clubs seeing what was going on...I was promoted to plugger. I took Arthur round for interviews with the radio, and got to know him as a person. He came round to my squat in West London - of course we weren't paid enough to afford a flat." Testbed 18:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)Testbed

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Clear editorialising - client journalism?

Reading through the talk page here is insane, and reading the actual page itself is hilarious. Clearly, this article was written by Simon Drake, a member of their team, or someone close to them. I've taken the opportunity to remove any apocryphal parts, any reviews, and anything that was either irrelevant or un-cited. If anyone has a problem with any of it, I'm happy to discuss. This website isn't an advertising service, and should not be used as such. JFezRidesAgain (talk) 16:48, 18 November 2021 (UTC)JFezRidesAgain